Forced To Disarm And The Outcome

[Jeff Hayes]

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911 knew that I did not know them andI'm sure they couldhear the yelling pounding on the door etc. This apt bldg was in a very bad part of town where the LEOs would not go without backup. Thats why I was moving out. I always suspected that they asked me to go to the curb for 2 reasons to see if it was a prank call or backup had not arrived yet. But I dont really know for sure.

The other thing that irritated me was they never charged any of them for the damage they did as far as I know. I also suspect that my girlfriend at the time who had a smart mouth was why all of this happened, I broke up with her right after this incident and never did find out for sure what started it. Also remember this was in the fall of 1982, this and a couple of other incidents caused me to carry without a permit a lot untill I escaped from Kalifornia in 1992.

 

[911Boss]

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McX wrote:

'scuze me? come out with your hands up? who's the criminal here?!

Reading is fundamental!

"Don't have anything in your hands when you come outside, just hold your hands out to the side where the officers can see them, you don't have to put them up."

To answer your question - The criminal is the criminal and the cops DON'T KNOW who that is until they identify who is who.

Asking you to have your hands empty and in plain view is not making you a criminal or treating you as one. It is tomake it very clear that you aren't a threat.

You might not realize this, but sometimes the bad guy will say they are the good guy. Do you really expect the cops to just trust everyone? If YOU were responding to the call would you feel safe assuming the person who is coming out the door is the homeowner and his hands are only in his pockets because it is chilly outside?

I swear I just don't get why some people have such an issue with the slightest submission. They would rather argue the point, get all upset, claim how they are victimized, feign offense, and drag out the inconvienence six times longer than it would take otherwise instead of just realizing that that is the way something is done and there are reasons it is done that way.

It really doesn't even take a triple digit IQ to fiqure most of this stuff out, I guess common sense just isn't as common as it once was...

 

[Stretch]

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Very good post 911Boss. Lots of information there that will hopefully help those willing to read and take suggestions.

 

[gsx1138]

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I would actually prefer not having to call 911 at all. The fact is we're forced to by our own system.

Good points made though. However, until the officer is knocking on the door I can't see myself disarming.

 

[911Boss]

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gsx1138 wrote:

I would actually prefer not having to call 911 at all. The fact is we're forced to by our own system.

Good points made though. However, until the officer is knocking on the door I can't see myself disarming.

Can you explain how "we're forced" to call 9-1-1 by our system?

Calling to report a crime is always optional, and many people choose not to bother. I've had callers reporting things as minor as1 missing campaign sign from a yard for a specific candidate, even though 4 more identical signs for the same candidate were left unmolested. This was a very serious matter for the caller who was absolutely certain that it was evil intent and couldn't possibly have just been another supporter, who didn't have a sign, 'borrowing" onefiguring the "victim" wouldn't mind.

Personally, I didnot bother to call after an "attempted assault" where some fool tried to open my car door at an intersection after a percieved traffic slight. When he realized he shouldn't have brought a tire iron to a gunfight, he decided to quickly retreat instead. Other than a generic description, I had no real info that would have led to him being identified or found. Even if he had been, it is doubtful any charges would have been filed since the situation was diffused pretty quickly before any real crime occured. I had things to do and no desire to sit and wait for someone to take a report for the sake of documentation.

We frequently get calls from witnesses whoreport things such as hit and run accidents, or domestic violence situations where the peopleactually involved in them never report it.

I don't know of any agency that would take exception to you remaining armed until officers arrive.

 

[gsx1138]

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911Boss wrote:

gsx1138 wrote:

I would actually prefer not having to call 911 at all. The fact is we're forced to by our own system.

Good points made though. However, until the officer is knocking on the door I can't see myself disarming.

Can you explain how "we're forced" to call 9-1-1 by our system?

Calling to report a crime is always optional, and many people choose not to bother. I've had callers reporting things as minor as1 missing campaign sign from a yard for a specific candidate, even though 4 more identical signs for the same candidate were left unmolested. This was a very serious matter for the caller who was absolutely certain that it was evil intent and couldn't possibly have just been another supporter, who didn't have a sign, 'borrowing" onefiguring the "victim" wouldn't mind.

Personally, I didnot bother to call after an "attempted assault" where some fool tried to open my car door at an intersection after a percieved traffic slight. When he realized he shouldn't have brought a tire iron to a gunfight, he decided to quickly retreat instead. Other than a generic description, I had no real info that would have led to him being identified or found. Even if he had been, it is doubtful any charges would have been filed since the situation was diffused pretty quickly before any real crime occured. I had things to do and no desire to sit and wait for someone to take a report for the sake of documentation.

We frequently get calls from witnesses whoreport things such as hit and run accidents, or domestic violence situations where the peopleactually involved in them never report it.

I don't know of any agency that would take exception to you remaining armed until officers arrive.

point taken.

 

[N6ATF]

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911Boss wrote:

N6ATF wrote:

Even an open book? An aluminum can held to your mouth? Yes, very threatening. Those papercuts and soda stains can be DEADLY.

Go back and read the post. "...something mistaken for a weapon".

Yes, open books and soda cans can be very deadly when due to lighting and shadows they can't be identified for what they are and only outlines or shapes are seen. Add in careless movement and a lack of following directions, and it isn't unheard of for them to be confused or misidentified by someone who is experiencing an adrenalin dump.

Cite specifically open books and soda cans getting people shot, please.

I'd rather be shot holding something that is not shaped like a weapon with my actual weapon openly holstered, than be shot for "making furtive movements" with empty hands towards my openly holstered weapon OR NO WEAPON PRESENT AT ALL.

 

[911Boss]

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N6ATF wrote:

911Boss wrote:

N6ATF wrote:

Even an open book? An aluminum can held to your mouth? Yes, very threatening. Those papercuts and soda stains can be DEADLY.

Go back and read the post. "...something mistaken for a weapon".

Yes, open books and soda cans can be very deadly when due to lighting and shadows they can't be identified for what they are and only outlines or shapes are seen. Add in careless movement and a lack of following directions, and it isn't unheard of for them to be confused or misidentified by someone who is experiencing an adrenalin dump.

Cite specifically open books and soda cans getting people shot, please.

I'd rather be shot holding something that is not shaped like a weapon with my actual weapon openly holstered, than be shot for "making furtive movements" with empty hands towards my openly holstered weapon OR NO WEAPON PRESENT AT ALL.

http://tinyurl.com/yfh6odu

I'd rather not be shot...

 

[N6ATF]

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911Boss wrote:

N6ATF wrote:

911Boss wrote:

N6ATF wrote:

Even an open book? An aluminum can held to your mouth? Yes, very threatening. Those papercuts and soda stains can be DEADLY.

Go back and read the post. "...something mistaken for a weapon".

Yes, open books and soda cans can be very deadly when due to lighting and shadows they can't be identified for what they are and only outlines or shapes are seen. Add in careless movement and a lack of following directions, and it isn't unheard of for them to be confused or misidentified by someone who is experiencing an adrenalin dump.

Cite specifically open books and soda cans getting people shot, please.

I'd rather be shot holding something that is not shaped like a weapon with my actual weapon openly holstered, than be shot for "making furtive movements" with empty hands towards my openly holstered weapon OR NO WEAPON PRESENT AT ALL.

http://tinyurl.com/yfh6odu

I'd rather not be shot...

Ahh, the generalized, not specific, Google game. :lol:

Yes, and you absolutely will not be shot with your hands empty.

:quirky

 

[erps]

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Yes, and you absolutely will not be shot with your hands empty.

would you agree that one's own conduct will have an impact on the way the incident is eventually resolved?

 

[N6ATF]

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erps wrote:

Yes, and you absolutely will not be shot with your hands empty.

would you agree that one's own conduct will have an impact on the way the incident is eventually resolved?

Too many indeterminate qualifiers in a vacuum.

If "one's own conduct" is totally compliant, with the hands as far away from the torso or lower extremities as possible, possessing only the clothes worn on the body, and is shot dead anyway with no witnesses and no footage, it would have no "impact on the way the incident is eventually resolved" because whatever happens is entirely up to the living and assumed trustworthy.

 

[911Boss]

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N6ATF wrote:

Ahh, the generalized, not specific, Google game. :lol:

Yes, and you absolutely will not be shot with your hands empty.

:quirky

Well, my original post mentioned that "things" in hands could be mistaken. I wasn't specific since lots of different things have been mistaken, and under certain circumstances probably just about anything could be mistaken.

YOU wanted to make it "specific" and ask for a cite for the two items you were concerned with (book and soda can). If you want the specifics, do your own research. You might note if you clink the link I provided, the third hit mentions a bible being mistaken for a gun. Last I checked, most bibles are in the familiar "book" format.

You certainly might be shot with your hands empty, however it is far less likely than if you have something in them. Should I google that for you as well?

 

[911Boss]

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erps wrote:

Yes, and you absolutely will not be shot with your hands empty.

would you agree that one's own conduct will have an impact on the way the incident is eventually resolved?

I think the rational people on the forum would, but for others that would require turning in their "I'm a Victim!" tiara, so pretty doubtful that they would agree to any such thing...

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N6ATF wrote:

Too many indeterminate qualifiers in a vacuum.

If "one's own conduct" is totally compliant, with the hands as far away from the torso or lower extremities as possible, possessing only the clothes worn on the body, and is shot dead anyway with no witnesses and no footage, it would have no "impact on the way the incident is eventually resolved" because whatever happens is entirely up to the living and assumed trustworthy.

Gee, it's like I am psychic sometimes!

 

[911Boss]

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N6ATF wrote:

If "one's own conduct" is totally compliant, with the hands as far away from the torso or lower extremities as possible, possessing only the clothes worn on the body, and is shot dead anyway with no witnesses and no footage, it would have no "impact on the way the incident is eventually resolved" because whatever happens is entirely up to the living and assumed trustworthy.

This happened where? Cite please.

 

[amzbrady]

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McX wrote:

'scuze me? come out with your hands up? who's the criminal here?!

Yea, HUH, Who called 911 from their residence? Too bad you cant claim whatever money they all have on them if any,to help to repair the door.

 

[erps]

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Gee, it's like I am psychic sometimes!

how did you do that?

 

[N6ATF]

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I wrote Dec 29th, 2009 19:00
"Bring out the surveillance tape... and a drink"

Specifics.

You wrote Dec 29th, 2009 19:42
"There have been too many people shot (good and bad) because something in their hand was mistaken for a weapon."

Generalities.

I wrote Dec 29th, 2009 22:42:
"Even an open book? An aluminum can held to your mouth?"

Specifics, again.

You wrote Dec 30th, 2009 07:30:
"Yes, open books and soda cans can be very deadly when due to lighting and shadows they can't be identified for what they are and only outlines or shapes are seen."

Finally, deigning to address specifics, but still, in terms of generalities.

I wrote Dec 30th, 2009 12:54
"Cite specifically open books and soda cans getting people shot, please."

Specifics, still...

You wrote Dec 30th, 2009 13:32
http://tinyurl.com/yfh6odu

Back to generalities, refusal to cite.

I wrote Dec 30th, 2009 13:46
"Yes, and you absolutely will not be shot with your hands empty."

Since you only seem capable of talking in generalities, if I can't beat 'em, guess I have to join 'em.

You wrote Dec 30th, 2009 13:46
"Well, my original post..."

Wrong. Original rebuttal, or lack thereof, to my original post, citing items from the very start, all along which you have refused to address specifically.

You continued to write Dec 30th, 2009 13:46
"the third hit mentions a bible being mistaken for a gun"

Nice interpretation. The headline, without quote marks on either side [Bible Mistaken for Gun in Shooting] is unsupported in the body of the article, but for the quote from April Venuti, his wife. Neither the shooter, nor the shooters' representative were quoted as saying he shot because he thought a bible was a gun. That is purely speculation based on the poor article.

If the shooter actually DID think a bible was a gun, and actually communicated this to others as his justification for the shoot, instead of saying "he ran screaming at me with a dark object raised above his head" (which would approach a decent justification for a clean shoot) then he should be in prison or a mental lockup.

Since this is the best you can come up with before resorting to insults, it's time to...

/unwatch topic

 

[911Boss]

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N6ATF wrote:

<...misc rambling nonsense...>

If I might be direct, what exactly is your point?

Just trying to be argumentative?

 

[N6ATF]

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911Boss wrote:

N6ATF wrote:

<...misc rambling nonsense...>

If I might be direct, what exactly is your point?

Just trying to be argumentative?

:what: If you're not going to respect others, at least have some respect for yourself.

 

[911Boss]

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N6ATF wrote:

If you're not going to respect others...

Cite please.

I am always respectful of others up until the point where they become disrespectful to me, or act in a foolish or unreasonable manner. At that point, I generally become brutally honest and have no problem calling them out on such behavior.

Truth hurts, and I don't sugar coat it. My self-respect keeps me from playing silly games or packaging my beliefs so they are easier for others to stomach. Also keeps me from taking the conspiracy nut jobs seriously as well as the pro-anarchy, and all government/all police are bad mouthpieces.