Former Marine killed in botched SWAT raid

[sudden valley gunner]

Sounds like the cops were acting on speculation. "no one person was named in the warrant". That does not sound like something that needed a SWAT team to me.

Oh, I know, they spent all that money on training, level III+ body armor and fully automatic M16's, now they needed an excuse to go try them out.

Exactly why we need to stop the militarization of police.

Exactly why we need to reduce, limit and restrict police an police powers drastically.

 

[Citizen]

Patrick Henry always fits with liberty discussions, especially liberties teeth discussions.

There is a tipping point. We are getting closer to it. The 4th is already evicerated. The 10th is ignored. When they try to evicerate the 2nd, they will have gone past my tipping point.

Two points. Reverse order.

Why wait for the evisceration of the 2nd? Look at how they treat us when we have guns. They know full well that they can continue to bleed us more and more as long as they let us keep our guns. Why bother to take the guns if the host will continue to feed the parasitic, criminal government? It would actually be directly contrary to their own financial interests to take the guns. They can take much, much more in money while leaving the guns, without risking the getting shot by trying to take the guns.

We don't have guns for the sake of keeping guns. We have guns so we can throw off economic enslavers who would destroy the quality of our lives while enriching themselves on our labors.

The liberty teeth thing has been debunked:

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html

 

[Deanimator]

If the warrant and affidavit are really sealed, that should tell you something.

If they were at the wrong address or were looking for the wrong person, the widow is going to be a VERY wealthy woman. If I were her, I'd get sweet revenge by investing half of the settlement in moderately priced video cameras that I'd give away free to community activists. I'd make sure that the cops couldn't wipe their behinds without there being somebody there with a camera to make sure they weren't wasting toilet paper.

 

[EricDailey X-NRA]

If the warrant and affidavit are really sealed, that should tell you something.

If they were at the wrong address or were looking for the wrong person, the widow is going to be a VERY wealthy woman. If I were her, I'd get sweet revenge by investing half of the settlement in moderately priced video cameras that I'd give away free to community activists. .

Cops on camera. Sounds like a good idea to me. You can get a pocket video for about the price of a tank of gas or two.

 

[Resto Guy]

This has to be the worst case of murder I've read of in years. As a child and young man, I was taught and believed that this sort of crime could only happen and be covered up in a Communist Bloc country. Those "Evil Empire" police states could get away with doing this, but never in our great land of Democracy and individual's rights. Our Founding Fathers wisely saw to it that our rights were preserved, so long as this country existed. So much for that....
I will bet that not one single officer faces charges in this murder. The "facts" will be twisted to make the victim the criminal. And we will let it happen. Again.
I am ashamed of what has become of our country. I have two grand daughters that will be born soon, and it saddens me that they will grow up in a country where you cannot trust your government or law enforcement agencies.

 

[GLOCK21GB]

SWAT & ERT/SRT's were simply created to circumvent the Posse Comitatus Act ..... Yes as someone else here said...The US government has raised & equiped it's own "non Military" Standing army with Garrison's in virtually every City & Country in the US, equiped them with Fully Automatic Machine guns ( Why would the police need Full Auto ? - Why would the police need to be better armed than the people ? ) So they can enforce the Totalitarian laws of this ..the Worlds 3rd largest Police state...... Any "freedoms" we have left in this Country are just a fleeting illusion of actually rights our founding fathers fought & Died for 230+ years ago. That Tree of Liberty needs a good hard drink SOON or it will be too late to revive it. Remember our founding fathers created a Constitutional Republic but what we have now is a Socialist Democracy ..YOU ARE NOT FREE PEOPLE ! you ARE SUBJECTS ! & they can Kill you at will !

Governments are supposed to fear the people NOT the People fearing the Government, like we have now !

 

[rscottie]

I am not to the point of calling this murder because I do not think that most officers set up to deliberately kill someone.

I would say that the training they are now receiving has swung way to far in to "guilty until proven innocent" instead of what it always was, "innocent until proven guilty".

Officers are also being taught, with range commands such as "gun" instead of "fire" that any sight of a gun is reason to shoot. This must be stopped.

They are also being taught that their lives are more important than any suspects which is much easier to swallow with the previous training of "guilty until proven innocent". We have all heard them say that they just want to go home at night.

It is my opinion that all of these aggressive tactics are CAUSING more incidents and officer deaths as suspects now know that they have nothing to lose.

In the old days, a suspect could come out with his hands up, get cuffed, and make it to jail alive. Nowadays, they are rousted from sleep and shot before they can determine if the home invaders are the police or one of their fellow criminals coming to get them.

This leads to many problems as the police are notorious for getting the address wrong and busting in to the wrong house, shooting the law-abiding that thinks the police are criminals.

Just like this unlucky Marine, I have no reason to think that the police would bust down my door and come in with guns ablaze. I would be grabbing my gun at the first sound of door breaking. I would probably get shot.

If the police are so afraid to serve a warrant, they could easily take down the suspect when he leaves to go to work or leaves to get a loaf of bread. They can surround the house and demand everyone come out. If they refuse, they can escalate the situation.

If they are so afraid of evidence being destroyed then they are being lazy and have not built their case up good enough. It is much easier to bust in and find evidence than spend time compiling evidence. I do not think they should be able to get a warrant unless they already have enough evidence to arrest the suspect. They are able to get these no-knock warrants too easy.

They have forgotten that they are supposed to "Serve and Protect".

 

[rscottie]

Attorney: SWAT raid found guns, body armor

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_a978c23a-a40f-5d0a-a203-76b88ac67e86.html?mode=story

How much of this is damage control?

 

[Motofixxer]

This was a Marine, he may have even been active, Reserves, or National Guard. Of course he will have guns, and likely body Armor.

 

[HKcarrier]

I get your point, but I think your math is off. I don't see how one person could get 8-9 shots off in 1-2 seconds, unless they're using a full auto. On top of that, 8-9 officers doing the exact same thing at the exact same time is unjustifiable. I don't see this as anything but EXCESSIVE USE OF FORCE.

Are you serious? I was just doing mag dumps on my glock yesterday... 10 shots does NOT take 2 seconds.

 

[zack991]

The more and more I read the more I am siding with the family and question the statements of the police.

 

[JoeGlock40]

SWAT Team.
Reminds me of a word called " Police State"!
A whole lot of adjustments need to be made on this idea.

people are makin it seem like we dont need swat on here...you guys think average patrol cops are gona have a chance against drug dealers and gang bangers and psychopaths with full auto ak47s? hell no. anyone here bout that cops in cali that gott ambushed by the former marine with a ilegaly converted full auto sks? he killed many cops and wounded some. he was a gang banger that became a marine and remained a gangbanger.
and the news said the warrant was drug related.
and as for the wife and neighbors sayin they didnt hear sirens at all till after the shooting, why would a swat team pull up to a house with sirens screamin and give up the element of surprise?! lay off the cops already, not all cops are killers

 

[eye95]

people are makin it seem like we dont need swat on here...you guys think average patrol cops are gona have a chance against drug dealers and gang bangers and psychopaths with full auto ak47s? hell no. anyone here bout that cops in cali that gott ambushed by the former marine with a ilegaly converted full auto sks? he killed many cops and wounded some. he was a gang banger that became a marine and remained a gangbanger.
and the news said the warrant was drug related.
and as for the wife and neighbors sayin they didnt hear sirens at all till after the shooting, why would a swat team pull up to a house with sirens screamin and give up the element of surprise?! lay off the cops already, not all cops are killers

I was around in the 70's, when SWAT teams started cropping up in the big cities. They were in response to police not being able to deal with organized and well-equipped gangs and drug-dealers. They fill a real need. The problem comes in when they are used in situations when they are not dealing with well-armed and barricaded criminals (or when they are used in error). Departments need to realize that there is a strong downside to the use of SWAT. It needs to be used carefully and sparingly.

However, to any rational person, the jury is still out on this incident. We simply do not have enough facts to pass a reasonable judgment--for or against the police action. That doesn't stop some folks though!

 

[FireStar M40]

Here's Another Who Thinks Cops Can Do NO Wrong!!

people are makin it seem like we dont need swat on here...you guys think average patrol cops are gona have a chance against drug dealers and gang bangers and psychopaths with full auto ak47s? hell no. anyone here bout that cops in cali that gott ambushed by the former marine with a ilegaly converted full auto sks? he killed many cops and wounded some. he was a gang banger that became a marine and remained a gangbanger.
and the news said the warrant was drug related.
and as for the wife and neighbors sayin they didnt hear sirens at all till after the shooting, why would a swat team pull up to a house with sirens screamin and give up the element of surprise?! lay off the cops already, not all cops are killers

Not all cops are killers!!?

Well these are!

 

[eye95]

Not all cops are murderers, not even those who have killed.

Like I said, to any reasonable person, the jury is still out on this one.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

people are makin it seem like we dont need swat on here...you guys think average patrol cops are gona have a chance against drug dealers and gang bangers and psychopaths with full auto ak47s? hell no. anyone here bout that cops in cali that gott ambushed by the former marine with a ilegaly converted full auto sks? he killed many cops and wounded some. he was a gang banger that became a marine and remained a gangbanger.
and the news said the warrant was drug related.
and as for the wife and neighbors sayin they didnt hear sirens at all till after the shooting, why would a swat team pull up to a house with sirens screamin and give up the element of surprise?! lay off the cops already, not all cops are killers

No we don't need SWAT. I am one of those that say that. There are often many other ways of resolving these situations than an armed invasion on American citizens.

I mean they used less force killing Osama. Should be one clue about the over zealousness of these tactics.

Get rid of unconstitutional drug laws and many of these problems will take care of themselves.

 

[Jack House]

I mean they used less force killing Osama. Should be one clue about the over zealousness of these tactics.

:banghead:

I agree with Eye95. There is an actual need for SWAT. They just shouldn't be thrown around all willy nilly. Like on the show Flashpoint. Admittedly, I do enjoy that show. But they use their SWAT team for every single freaking thing under the sun. Silly Canadians.

 

[GLOCK21GB]

is it true that all search warrants are issued by swat in st. Louis?

Swat has long past its usefulness. All swat needs to be disbanded and those officers place back on "regular" duties. Some are "regular" beat cops trained to do swat stuff. Part-time swat i guess. The training that they receive and the personal equipment they have can be carried by these officers while doing "regular" beat cop duties. Spending tax dollars on armored vehicles and special panel vans for "mobile command posts" is a huge waste of tax money. A smart-phone is all the "high-tech" equipment le needs, in the age of the interwebs.

Disband swat, you may find that leos that lost their job due to budget constraints could have kept their job if it were not for swat budgets.

By the way, there is only one version of the event until the family gets their day in court to have the official version of the event proven false, if it is so proven to be false. Any other version is pure hearsay, unfounded speculation. When le is the only source of the facts, their version of the event is the only version.

How many/what is the latest version of the truth today?

this ^

 

[sudden valley gunner]

:banghead:

I agree with Eye95. There is an actual need for SWAT. They just shouldn't be thrown around all willy nilly. Like on the show Flashpoint. Admittedly, I do enjoy that show. But they use their SWAT team for every single freaking thing under the sun. Silly Canadians.

I don't see the need for a SWAT team, I could entertain the argument of having officers trained in those tactics and called when needed.

But the realities are every town is getting them when they used to be for bigger cities, they are rarely ever "really" needed, most situations can be handled differently. They are a huge waste of resources and further the militarization of a police force into a standing army.

 

[Thundar]

CNN - Sheriff's department just said the Marine made eye contact with somebody in the Sheriff's department, but did not surrender so they shot him. Story Number 3. They say they have a LONG INVESTIGATION. All they found were lots of (gasp) guns in this former marines house.

Gone was the neglegent discharge explanation.

Still no explanation of why they waited for over an hour to allow medical attention.