J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
Still waiting for someone to post the open records on this one.
Still waiting for someone to post the open records on this one.
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FWI CIty of Milwaukee District #2
- Thread starter P229Sig357DAK
- Start date
P229Sig357DAK
Regular Member
imported post
bigdaddy1 wrote:
bigdaddy1 wrote:
I was aware that I did not have to immediately comply IF I was going to comply at all. I was aware that I could have asked if I was free to go. I was aware that I could have asked for the Reasonable Articulable Suspicion. I was also aware that these officers had been (what I considered pretty strait forward) up to this point. They did not attempt to lure me off of my property adjacent to a school zone. They did not attempt to touch or otherwise manahandle me. They didn't try any little manipulative tricks...So I thought I would dispense with busting their balls and let them have the ID. I consider being aware that I have the choice as having the choice to make. During small talk when I was left alone with the one officer I did mention the oppen carry forum and being a memeber and regular reader of the forum. I am betting the officer also knew what I did and did not have to comply with. I thought my cooperation in this incident may have been the better part of social discourse between a member of this forum and the local PD who were not (In my opinion) busting my balls either.
J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
Smells in here.
Smells in here.
P229Sig357DAK
Regular Member
imported post
J.Gleason wrote:
J.Gleason wrote:
To whom or what are you referring. If it is about myself or my posting please enlighten me as to just what it is that you found disturbing or offensive.
AaronS
Regular Member
imported post
P229Sig357DAK wrote:
It was very good of you to treat your local Milwaukee police with respect.
The bummer in this case is that in the end the cop threatened you with what I can only guess was a lie. This whole "there is a new procedure in place that if anyone calls in that there is a person with a sidearm and that they are uncomfortable with this...that the police will now come and arrest you for "disturbing the peace"" kills me. That would null and void any carry in this state (oh, hunting maybe). You should have gotten the names of the two cops, and called up to get a copy of this "new procedure". I am sure theState AG would love to read it...
We do have good cops in the city, but I don't think you got to see any on that day.
P229Sig357DAK wrote:
It was very good of you to treat your local Milwaukee police with respect.
The bummer in this case is that in the end the cop threatened you with what I can only guess was a lie. This whole "there is a new procedure in place that if anyone calls in that there is a person with a sidearm and that they are uncomfortable with this...that the police will now come and arrest you for "disturbing the peace"" kills me. That would null and void any carry in this state (oh, hunting maybe). You should have gotten the names of the two cops, and called up to get a copy of this "new procedure". I am sure theState AG would love to read it...
We do have good cops in the city, but I don't think you got to see any on that day.
Master Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
qball54208 wrote:
As to establishing identity while on your own property, yes, you may not have to, but then how will the cops know that you have a right to be there and are not trespassing? You will be detained arrested while your identity is established.
Remember, I-ANAL, (and thanks to DustiniaC), a coward and an aśśhole.
qball54208 wrote:
Your identification is your name and residence and not some government provided paper. Only after you are detained (arrested) may your property properly be seized for examination.
As to establishing identity while on your own property, yes, you may not have to, but then how will the cops know that you have a right to be there and are not trespassing? You will be detained arrested while your identity is established.
Remember, I-ANAL, (and thanks to DustiniaC), a coward and an aśśhole.
Master Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
P229Sig357DAK wrote:
P229Sig357DAK wrote:
True, but to what effect? I believe that probable cause is only just now, at his preliminary hearing, being established for Jesus Gonzalez. The point being that RAS is not yours to determine.
M
McX
Guest
imported post
You will be detained arrested while your identity is established. now that sounds fair, and encouraging!
Master Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
If he has RAS to demand your identity (not seize your papers) then he has RAS to detain arrest you. If you let him off easy then he'll abuse his discretion. If you do it the hard way then a judge will have the opportunity to tell him, "No, you did not have RAS to detain McX." and McX will have a case against the cop for abuse of discretion (aka "false arrest" or whatever).
If he has RAS to demand your identity (not seize your papers) then he has RAS to detain arrest you. If you let him off easy then he'll abuse his discretion. If you do it the hard way then a judge will have the opportunity to tell him, "No, you did not have RAS to detain McX." and McX will have a case against the cop for abuse of discretion (aka "false arrest" or whatever).
J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
P229Sig357DAK wrote:
Need a better answer? OK
Someone is full of BS here. Either it is you or the officers. Not trying to be disrespectful but here is how I see it.
You come into the forum and tell us of this incident and how you just allowed these officers to trample all over your rights for no good reason, yet you have not made any effort to take an hour out of your day and go down to the PD and ask for the open records. It was one supposed police call so it would more than likely be given to you within a day at the most. Where is the open records request? Where are the records of the call? The police response? What are the names of the officers? What is your name so one of us may submit an open records request?
Why haven't you done this on your own?
As far as the "supposed" police encounter, why didn't you exercise your rights?
You say you have been watching this forum and have just recently decided to post. If you have been watching the forum, then you should know how to respond when you have an encounter with the police. That does not include allowing an officer to reach into your pocket where they could very well leave behind an illegal substance that could cause you to spend some time in prison for being in possession of a firearm while being in possession of drugs or whatever else they felt like leaving behind in your pocket.
If you are not well versed in your rights, maybe you should hold off on carrying until you are. If you are uncomfortable with standing up to the police and enforcing those rights then maybe you should not carry until you are.
So far you have taken offense to any comment that may appear to suggest that something is amiss with your story. That seems to appear as though you have something to hide.
You clearly admit that you did not even ask the officers if you were being detained even on your own property. You clearly admit to allowing the officer to search your person without question or objection.
It just seems funny to me that all of these people that have just been watching the forum, now suddenly come out to post after the incident with Jesus Gonzalez. And all of these new posters have some story to tell about how the police said they were going to crack down on OCers. Yet you offer no proof that the incident actually took place.
If that was me I would have immediately went to the PD and submitted an ORR and got all of the information on the call. I would have then posted that information here for everyone to see.
Now if the incident actually did take place, then what are the officers names? Have you spoken with an attorney concerning your detainment? Because if they took your ID and ran your name you were being detained.
With all of your inaction in this incident, I have to question as to whether or not this actually took place or if this is nothing more than a story to try and deter people form OCing. Until I see records of the call I have to stand by this opinion. If I am wrong I apologize in advance. Sorry, I have grown very suspicious as of late, but with good reason.
Hey I am only stating what many here are thinking and don't have the balls to put in writing.
You asked, I told. Shenanigans!
P229Sig357DAK wrote:
I am saying it smells in here. Shenanigans, Shenanigans, Shenanigans.
Need a better answer? OK
Someone is full of BS here. Either it is you or the officers. Not trying to be disrespectful but here is how I see it.
You come into the forum and tell us of this incident and how you just allowed these officers to trample all over your rights for no good reason, yet you have not made any effort to take an hour out of your day and go down to the PD and ask for the open records. It was one supposed police call so it would more than likely be given to you within a day at the most. Where is the open records request? Where are the records of the call? The police response? What are the names of the officers? What is your name so one of us may submit an open records request?
Why haven't you done this on your own?
As far as the "supposed" police encounter, why didn't you exercise your rights?
You say you have been watching this forum and have just recently decided to post. If you have been watching the forum, then you should know how to respond when you have an encounter with the police. That does not include allowing an officer to reach into your pocket where they could very well leave behind an illegal substance that could cause you to spend some time in prison for being in possession of a firearm while being in possession of drugs or whatever else they felt like leaving behind in your pocket.
If you are not well versed in your rights, maybe you should hold off on carrying until you are. If you are uncomfortable with standing up to the police and enforcing those rights then maybe you should not carry until you are.
So far you have taken offense to any comment that may appear to suggest that something is amiss with your story. That seems to appear as though you have something to hide.
You clearly admit that you did not even ask the officers if you were being detained even on your own property. You clearly admit to allowing the officer to search your person without question or objection.
It just seems funny to me that all of these people that have just been watching the forum, now suddenly come out to post after the incident with Jesus Gonzalez. And all of these new posters have some story to tell about how the police said they were going to crack down on OCers. Yet you offer no proof that the incident actually took place.
If that was me I would have immediately went to the PD and submitted an ORR and got all of the information on the call. I would have then posted that information here for everyone to see.
Now if the incident actually did take place, then what are the officers names? Have you spoken with an attorney concerning your detainment? Because if they took your ID and ran your name you were being detained.
With all of your inaction in this incident, I have to question as to whether or not this actually took place or if this is nothing more than a story to try and deter people form OCing. Until I see records of the call I have to stand by this opinion. If I am wrong I apologize in advance. Sorry, I have grown very suspicious as of late, but with good reason.
Hey I am only stating what many here are thinking and don't have the balls to put in writing.
You asked, I told. Shenanigans!
M
McX
Guest
imported post
Dak, you played it clean. a good guy in my book. but i guess what everyone is mentioning, and holding their breath on; the ball is now in your court, how you going to play it?
Dak, you played it clean. a good guy in my book. but i guess what everyone is mentioning, and holding their breath on; the ball is now in your court, how you going to play it?
J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
<Cricket chirp>
<Cricket chirp>
imported post
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
1. Tier 1 -- a consensual encounter (e.g., LEO says, "Excuse me, Sir, can you please tell me what time it is?"); you are free to go.
2. Tier 2 -- "Terry" stop; requires reasonable articulable suspicion that crime is afoot (e.g., LEO says, "Stop, police. Why are you lurking around in the dark alley behind the jewelry store with a flashlight?"); you are not free to go. You have been detained under force of law, but the officer lacks probable cause to arrest you for anything. Your responses (or nonresponses) to his questions may furnish him with sufficient additional information to establish probable cause to arrest you, or he may stop and help you find your lost kitten in the alley behind the jewelry store. A Terry stop does not authorize any type of search. If, however, the LEO has reason to believe you are presently armed and dangerous, he may conduct a Terry frisk (pat down of outer clothing) to check for weapons. Anything discovered as a result of a lawful Terry frisk is not the result of an invalid search. Note, however, that you must be armed and dangerous. An armed person is not necessarily dangerous.
3. Tier 3 -- Arrest. Requires a warrant or probable cause to believe a crime has been committed and that you committed it. That means all the elements of the crime must be more likely than not present.
The above is based on SCOTUS 4th Amendment jurisprudence and assumes no state laws that are more restrictive on LEOs. Any state law that appears to authorize greater intrusion than this is unconstitutional.
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
There's a line between RAS and PC. Having RAS to detain someone briefly to allay your fears that crime might be afoot is not sufficient for probable cause to arrest. In the "tiered" system of police encounters, there is:
1. Tier 1 -- a consensual encounter (e.g., LEO says, "Excuse me, Sir, can you please tell me what time it is?"); you are free to go.
2. Tier 2 -- "Terry" stop; requires reasonable articulable suspicion that crime is afoot (e.g., LEO says, "Stop, police. Why are you lurking around in the dark alley behind the jewelry store with a flashlight?"); you are not free to go. You have been detained under force of law, but the officer lacks probable cause to arrest you for anything. Your responses (or nonresponses) to his questions may furnish him with sufficient additional information to establish probable cause to arrest you, or he may stop and help you find your lost kitten in the alley behind the jewelry store. A Terry stop does not authorize any type of search. If, however, the LEO has reason to believe you are presently armed and dangerous, he may conduct a Terry frisk (pat down of outer clothing) to check for weapons. Anything discovered as a result of a lawful Terry frisk is not the result of an invalid search. Note, however, that you must be armed and dangerous. An armed person is not necessarily dangerous.
3. Tier 3 -- Arrest. Requires a warrant or probable cause to believe a crime has been committed and that you committed it. That means all the elements of the crime must be more likely than not present.
The above is based on SCOTUS 4th Amendment jurisprudence and assumes no state laws that are more restrictive on LEOs. Any state law that appears to authorize greater intrusion than this is unconstitutional.
P229Sig357DAK
Regular Member
imported post
J.Gleason wrote:
You come into the forum and tell us of this incident and how you just allowed these officers to trample all over your rights for no good reason,
Response : I had a very good reason. Several in fact. So lets start with :
1> My wife and my just six year old son are everything to me. Contemplating their safety and how I could provide for that safety has a great deal to do with how I came to support RTKBA and Open Carry. If my weapons have been confiscated and I am in jail how do I protect what matters most to me? Carrying this forward there are many well documented cases where police take children into custody because the parents are being arrested...once the state gets involved with your children there is no degree of certainty that you will ever have your children returned to you EVER.
2> Being educated in what my rights are means that the officers in question did not trample my rights...I made a choice to aquiesce to the officers request. A finer point to make is RAS. I have no way of knowing what the officer has or has not been informed of prior to the officers request of information from myself. I doubt very much that the officer in question had RAS that would have held up in court in this instance. Having said that RAS is in the purview of the officer not the interviewed.
3> There is a great deal of education about always carrying a recording device. In reality though I doubt most people on this forum are 24/7/365 carrying a recording device. In some cases it is not prudent to make a "sudden movement" to get your recording device out and operating either.
yet you have not made any effort to take an hour out of your day and go down to the PD and ask for the open records. It was one supposed police call so it would more than likely be given to you within a day at the most. Where is the open records request? Where are the records of the call? The police response? Why haven't you done this on your own?
1> Obviously you are much more well versed in the area of Open Records Requests. I put this information out on this forum with the thought in mind that if someone ( a moderator other senior forum member ) that better understood an Open Records Request might follow up on this.
2> I did not do this personally in the first place because ...1) I didn't understand that the protocol on this forum dictated that it was my responsibility. 2) I have had no time lately to spend quality time with my family with a full and a part time job and other responsibilities I JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME!. 3) I had no concept of what was involved in regards with time, money, paperwork etc.
What are the names of the officers?
1> I was more than a bit nervous. When the officer asked what kind of sidearm I had I got the make right and screwed up the model number. I certainly was not in the frame of mind during this instance to make note of or ask for a card from the officers in question. Perhaps next time I will be a more presentable representative of this forum.
What is your name so one of us may submit an open records request?
1> No one has asked that question until now. Why is that if it was so damn important? If you truly want to file the request on my behalf send an IM with what information you will need and I will reply with what you need.
As far as the "supposed" police encounter, why didn't you exercise your rights? If you are not well versed in your rights, maybe you should hold off on carrying until you are. If you are uncomfortable with standing up to the police and enforcing those rights then maybe you should not carry until you are.
1> Having the right to refuse to give a name also means that I have the right to choose to give my name. Having the right to refuse to engage an officer in conversation also means that I have the right to choose to engage the officer in conversation. By your logic I should never give my name or engage an officer in conversation...this also takes away my rights to choose and is equally restrictive on my freedom.
You say you have been watching this forum and have just recently decided to post. If you have been watching the forum, then you should know how to respond when you have an encounter with the police. That does not include allowing an officer to reach into your pocket where they could very well leave behind an illegal substance that could cause you to spend some time in prison for being in possession of a firearm while being in possession of drugs or whatever else they felt like leaving behind in your pocket.
1> If an officer wants to attempt to plan illegal substance on my person...good luck! I dont exactly fit the stereo type. The first thing you need to be able to pull off a manipulation such as this, is a victime that fits certain parameters of a profile. I don't fit the profile of a narcotics user.
You clearly admit to allowing the officer to search your person without question or objection.
1> There was never any "search" or "pat down". They went into one pocket, for a single purpose with my permission. I was obviously such a threat to them that they neither put on gloves nor asked if I was carrying anything sharp etc.
It just seems funny to me that all of these people that have just been watching the forum, now suddenly come out to post after the incident with Jesus Gonzalez. And all of these new posters have some story to tell about how the police said they were going to crack down on OCers. Yet you offer no proof that the incident actually took place.
1> There was a time when a person was taken at their word until there was RAS not to believe what they said. That being said there was also a time when people could be killed for impuning anothers honor. I am particular about being called a liar...true.When all is said and done. No matter who your friends are and who your enemies are. No matter what the police report says. It all starts with giving our word. We give our word to honor committments, we give our word to pay back loans, we give our word to our spouses, family and friends. In the end staying true to our word is what defines us and how others see us. My question to you would be this...why doesn't it bother you to baselessly and arbitrarily deface the good name and reputation of people you haven't taken five minutes to get to know, and expect them to just take it?
If that was me I would have immediately went to the PD and submitted an ORR and got all of the information on the call. I would have then posted that information here for everyone to see.
1> I am not you. I do not share your life experiences. It was not what I first thought about doing. Honestly my first thoughts were to go inside and take the gun off and calm my nerves a little. I am not ashamed to admit I was nervous. Being nervous under those circumstances is normal...if you are not normal...then either you have carried long enough to overcome this fear (healthy expression) or maybe you are fu**ed in the head and shouldn't be carrying a firearm.
Have you spoken with an attorney concerning your detainment? Because if they took your ID and ran your name you were being detained.
1> I have not spoken with an attorney about my "detainment". I willingly engaged two police officers by my choice.
With all of your inaction in this incident, I have to question as to whether or not this actually took place or if this is nothing more than a story to try and deter people form OCing. Until I see records of the call I have to stand by this opinion.
1> I did take action. I posted on this forum to spread the word of what I was told by the police. I could not verify if the information being passed was truth or not...I did what I thought would be appropriate and passed the information along to others with better experience and insight that might know how to verify or dispute this claim...What I recieved for my troubles was ridicule and baseless claims against my person.
2> Attempting to get people to stop Open Carrying by telling stories of how I was questioned while Open Carrying is quite the passive aggressive reverse logic manipulation...and maybe a bit paranoid too.
Hey I am only stating what many here are thinking and don't have the balls to put in writing.
1> This is an assumption on your part unless they are writing you behind my back and telling you this! :uhoh:
2> If this really trully is the consensus of this forum that every little post like this is going to be treated in such a manner...then I suggest instead of having a member of the board who is an attorney...get a member on the board to who is a psychiatrist.
J.Gleason wrote:
You come into the forum and tell us of this incident and how you just allowed these officers to trample all over your rights for no good reason,
Response : I had a very good reason. Several in fact. So lets start with :
1> My wife and my just six year old son are everything to me. Contemplating their safety and how I could provide for that safety has a great deal to do with how I came to support RTKBA and Open Carry. If my weapons have been confiscated and I am in jail how do I protect what matters most to me? Carrying this forward there are many well documented cases where police take children into custody because the parents are being arrested...once the state gets involved with your children there is no degree of certainty that you will ever have your children returned to you EVER.
2> Being educated in what my rights are means that the officers in question did not trample my rights...I made a choice to aquiesce to the officers request. A finer point to make is RAS. I have no way of knowing what the officer has or has not been informed of prior to the officers request of information from myself. I doubt very much that the officer in question had RAS that would have held up in court in this instance. Having said that RAS is in the purview of the officer not the interviewed.
3> There is a great deal of education about always carrying a recording device. In reality though I doubt most people on this forum are 24/7/365 carrying a recording device. In some cases it is not prudent to make a "sudden movement" to get your recording device out and operating either.
yet you have not made any effort to take an hour out of your day and go down to the PD and ask for the open records. It was one supposed police call so it would more than likely be given to you within a day at the most. Where is the open records request? Where are the records of the call? The police response? Why haven't you done this on your own?
1> Obviously you are much more well versed in the area of Open Records Requests. I put this information out on this forum with the thought in mind that if someone ( a moderator other senior forum member ) that better understood an Open Records Request might follow up on this.
2> I did not do this personally in the first place because ...1) I didn't understand that the protocol on this forum dictated that it was my responsibility. 2) I have had no time lately to spend quality time with my family with a full and a part time job and other responsibilities I JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME!. 3) I had no concept of what was involved in regards with time, money, paperwork etc.
What are the names of the officers?
1> I was more than a bit nervous. When the officer asked what kind of sidearm I had I got the make right and screwed up the model number. I certainly was not in the frame of mind during this instance to make note of or ask for a card from the officers in question. Perhaps next time I will be a more presentable representative of this forum.
What is your name so one of us may submit an open records request?
1> No one has asked that question until now. Why is that if it was so damn important? If you truly want to file the request on my behalf send an IM with what information you will need and I will reply with what you need.
As far as the "supposed" police encounter, why didn't you exercise your rights? If you are not well versed in your rights, maybe you should hold off on carrying until you are. If you are uncomfortable with standing up to the police and enforcing those rights then maybe you should not carry until you are.
1> Having the right to refuse to give a name also means that I have the right to choose to give my name. Having the right to refuse to engage an officer in conversation also means that I have the right to choose to engage the officer in conversation. By your logic I should never give my name or engage an officer in conversation...this also takes away my rights to choose and is equally restrictive on my freedom.
You say you have been watching this forum and have just recently decided to post. If you have been watching the forum, then you should know how to respond when you have an encounter with the police. That does not include allowing an officer to reach into your pocket where they could very well leave behind an illegal substance that could cause you to spend some time in prison for being in possession of a firearm while being in possession of drugs or whatever else they felt like leaving behind in your pocket.
1> If an officer wants to attempt to plan illegal substance on my person...good luck! I dont exactly fit the stereo type. The first thing you need to be able to pull off a manipulation such as this, is a victime that fits certain parameters of a profile. I don't fit the profile of a narcotics user.
You clearly admit to allowing the officer to search your person without question or objection.
1> There was never any "search" or "pat down". They went into one pocket, for a single purpose with my permission. I was obviously such a threat to them that they neither put on gloves nor asked if I was carrying anything sharp etc.
It just seems funny to me that all of these people that have just been watching the forum, now suddenly come out to post after the incident with Jesus Gonzalez. And all of these new posters have some story to tell about how the police said they were going to crack down on OCers. Yet you offer no proof that the incident actually took place.
1> There was a time when a person was taken at their word until there was RAS not to believe what they said. That being said there was also a time when people could be killed for impuning anothers honor. I am particular about being called a liar...true.When all is said and done. No matter who your friends are and who your enemies are. No matter what the police report says. It all starts with giving our word. We give our word to honor committments, we give our word to pay back loans, we give our word to our spouses, family and friends. In the end staying true to our word is what defines us and how others see us. My question to you would be this...why doesn't it bother you to baselessly and arbitrarily deface the good name and reputation of people you haven't taken five minutes to get to know, and expect them to just take it?
If that was me I would have immediately went to the PD and submitted an ORR and got all of the information on the call. I would have then posted that information here for everyone to see.
1> I am not you. I do not share your life experiences. It was not what I first thought about doing. Honestly my first thoughts were to go inside and take the gun off and calm my nerves a little. I am not ashamed to admit I was nervous. Being nervous under those circumstances is normal...if you are not normal...then either you have carried long enough to overcome this fear (healthy expression) or maybe you are fu**ed in the head and shouldn't be carrying a firearm.
Have you spoken with an attorney concerning your detainment? Because if they took your ID and ran your name you were being detained.
1> I have not spoken with an attorney about my "detainment". I willingly engaged two police officers by my choice.
With all of your inaction in this incident, I have to question as to whether or not this actually took place or if this is nothing more than a story to try and deter people form OCing. Until I see records of the call I have to stand by this opinion.
1> I did take action. I posted on this forum to spread the word of what I was told by the police. I could not verify if the information being passed was truth or not...I did what I thought would be appropriate and passed the information along to others with better experience and insight that might know how to verify or dispute this claim...What I recieved for my troubles was ridicule and baseless claims against my person.
2> Attempting to get people to stop Open Carrying by telling stories of how I was questioned while Open Carrying is quite the passive aggressive reverse logic manipulation...and maybe a bit paranoid too.
Hey I am only stating what many here are thinking and don't have the balls to put in writing.
1> This is an assumption on your part unless they are writing you behind my back and telling you this! :uhoh:
2> If this really trully is the consensus of this forum that every little post like this is going to be treated in such a manner...then I suggest instead of having a member of the board who is an attorney...get a member on the board to who is a psychiatrist.
Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman
Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
imported post
an open records request has already been made.
For future reference its a good procedure to become familiar with:
Here are some links
http://wikifoia.pbworks.com/How+to+file+an+open+records+request+in+Wisconsin
http://www.journalism.wisc.edu/~drechsel/j559/readings/openrec.html
an open records request has already been made.
For future reference its a good procedure to become familiar with:
Here are some links
http://wikifoia.pbworks.com/How+to+file+an+open+records+request+in+Wisconsin
http://www.journalism.wisc.edu/~drechsel/j559/readings/openrec.html
P229Sig357DAK
Regular Member
imported post
Thank you.
Thank you.
Interceptor_Knight
Regular Member
imported post
P229Sig357DAK wrote:
It appears that the only forcing (coercion) in this whole incident is by members of OCDO trying to brow beat you into requesting an open records request. As you said, you allowed them to have your ID of your own free will. That is your perogative and you gave good personal reason to do so. No rights were trampled. No one was forced to do anything. No one was arrested.No one's dog was shot.
It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and ridicule someone for their actions or inactions when they are not standing in the shoes of the person they are attacking. Talk is cheap.
Don't let anyone bully you. You did nothing wrong. I for one am not interested in creating drama with every police encounter. I believe that we need to pick our fights and not make every LEO encounter a fight. Thank you for sharing your experience. Stick around a while and do not let anyone chase you off.
P229Sig357DAK wrote:
It appears that the only forcing (coercion) in this whole incident is by members of OCDO trying to brow beat you into requesting an open records request. As you said, you allowed them to have your ID of your own free will. That is your perogative and you gave good personal reason to do so. No rights were trampled. No one was forced to do anything. No one was arrested.No one's dog was shot.
It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and ridicule someone for their actions or inactions when they are not standing in the shoes of the person they are attacking. Talk is cheap.
Don't let anyone bully you. You did nothing wrong. I for one am not interested in creating drama with every police encounter. I believe that we need to pick our fights and not make every LEO encounter a fight. Thank you for sharing your experience. Stick around a while and do not let anyone chase you off.
J.Gleason
Banned
imported post
Interceptor_Knight wrote:
There are more and more people coming into this forum and making statements that Police are stopping them on the street and on their "OWN" property and harassing them because they are OCing and it is all happening now since Jesus was arrested.
Smells like fish to me. Now all of a sudden the police are coming onto peoples property and questioning them for what? What have they done that is illegal? What RAS do the police have to indict that there is a need for them to question someone who is working in their own yard because that person is carrying a firearm?
I think the next time I see a police officer I will just place my hands behind my head and drop down to my knees and cross my ankles so they can just frisk the hell out of me.
Get fecking real here. Let's be honest this hasn't only become an issue about our right to self protection it is a "Rights" issue as well and the fact is if you are an advocate for "Civil Rights" you certainly don't allow the police to just trample all over them now do you?
If I am working in my yard and the police come onto my property I will assume they may need my assistance. Once they start questioning me about me doing something that is "Pertfectly Legal" (I love that phrase) that is when I request that they remove themselves from my property. At that point they are trespassing. I do not answer any questions they have and if the police do not leave then I call the Sherriff's Department and have them removed.
I don't let them reach in my pockets or search my person because they have no RAS, Probable Cause, gut suspicions, medicaL need, or any other damn reason to do so.
I do not have to ID myself and at this point since the police are there for no legal reason I would not ID myself or allow them to obtain my ID either.
What they hell is the point of carrying a firearm for self defense if you damn near deficate in your drawers just because the police stop to talk to you when they have no cause? What do you think your going to do with that firearm if a criminal attacks you when you nearly poop yourself because the cops harass you?
I guess we will just have to wait and see if this incident even took place as from what I understand the WCI has filed an ORR.
As far as sitting behind my keyboard, that more discribes you then me. Sure I comeinto this forum when I have some free time. But throughout my entire day I am armed. I am not afraid to be armed and I am not afraid to stand my ground when unlawfully questioned by the police. My statements were not an attack they were the truth. there is a difference.
If this incident actually did take place and happened as the OP originally stated then so be it. But I for one wouldn't come into this forum and post in such a way that it would possibly deter others from exercising their rights simply because I chose to stand mute and let the police harass me.
At this point I don't think it would have mattered if I absolutley had agreed with the OP you simply always have to play the devil's advocate and have the opposite point of view on everything. Even when it is pointless.
Just like the see through case for example. Do you carry for self defense or do yu carry because you like the attention it brings? Because it seems to me that it is really important to you that everyone sees your firearm. And don't say it is for legal purposes that you want the see through case because that is horse crap. It is nothing more than for someone to notice you. If that is all you want is to be noticed then walk down the street in your underwear.
Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Oh for crying out loud I_K get over yourself. You sound like a bleeding heart liberal. "Don't let anyone bully you."
There are more and more people coming into this forum and making statements that Police are stopping them on the street and on their "OWN" property and harassing them because they are OCing and it is all happening now since Jesus was arrested.
Smells like fish to me. Now all of a sudden the police are coming onto peoples property and questioning them for what? What have they done that is illegal? What RAS do the police have to indict that there is a need for them to question someone who is working in their own yard because that person is carrying a firearm?
I think the next time I see a police officer I will just place my hands behind my head and drop down to my knees and cross my ankles so they can just frisk the hell out of me.
Get fecking real here. Let's be honest this hasn't only become an issue about our right to self protection it is a "Rights" issue as well and the fact is if you are an advocate for "Civil Rights" you certainly don't allow the police to just trample all over them now do you?
If I am working in my yard and the police come onto my property I will assume they may need my assistance. Once they start questioning me about me doing something that is "Pertfectly Legal" (I love that phrase) that is when I request that they remove themselves from my property. At that point they are trespassing. I do not answer any questions they have and if the police do not leave then I call the Sherriff's Department and have them removed.
I don't let them reach in my pockets or search my person because they have no RAS, Probable Cause, gut suspicions, medicaL need, or any other damn reason to do so.
I do not have to ID myself and at this point since the police are there for no legal reason I would not ID myself or allow them to obtain my ID either.
What they hell is the point of carrying a firearm for self defense if you damn near deficate in your drawers just because the police stop to talk to you when they have no cause? What do you think your going to do with that firearm if a criminal attacks you when you nearly poop yourself because the cops harass you?
I guess we will just have to wait and see if this incident even took place as from what I understand the WCI has filed an ORR.
As far as sitting behind my keyboard, that more discribes you then me. Sure I comeinto this forum when I have some free time. But throughout my entire day I am armed. I am not afraid to be armed and I am not afraid to stand my ground when unlawfully questioned by the police. My statements were not an attack they were the truth. there is a difference.
If this incident actually did take place and happened as the OP originally stated then so be it. But I for one wouldn't come into this forum and post in such a way that it would possibly deter others from exercising their rights simply because I chose to stand mute and let the police harass me.
At this point I don't think it would have mattered if I absolutley had agreed with the OP you simply always have to play the devil's advocate and have the opposite point of view on everything. Even when it is pointless.
Just like the see through case for example. Do you carry for self defense or do yu carry because you like the attention it brings? Because it seems to me that it is really important to you that everyone sees your firearm. And don't say it is for legal purposes that you want the see through case because that is horse crap. It is nothing more than for someone to notice you. If that is all you want is to be noticed then walk down the street in your underwear.
bigdaddy1
Regular Member
imported post
Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Interceptor_Knight wrote:
Why not? Why should we "permit" some and not others? How do we choose these fights? What criteria are we to follow? If someone does something wrong to you, by not fighting that wrong, you are making it right. I am not saying that you have to fight at the moment, sometimes you may need to gather yourself before you realize that the wrong needs to be righted. But, if you just "let it go" you are only justifying the encounter. If you do not teach, the will not learn.