How we got into this financial mess...

[jopencarry]

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you never post any facts, you simply attempt to belittle and call the other person "stupid"

 

[AWDstylez]

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jopencarry wrote:

you never post any facts, you simply attempt to belittle and call the other person "stupid"

Right right. Go back and read the posts on the first page, maybe? Check out that link to the sub-prime mortgage cartoon, maybe? Read up on fractional reserve banking, maybe?

It's difficult to argue with someone when they don't even have the most basic grasp on the issues. His very first post was nothing but GOP, partisan rhetoric that barely had a grain of truth in it. I gave him a list of issues to address and have heard nothing but insults back.

Maybe you need to read these posts a little more carefully.

 

[deepdiver]

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Granted, Noam Chomsky is an anarchist with a hard socialist bent rather than a communist. But Alexcabbie didn't say Chomsky was a communist, he called you a communist, AWDstylez. Not offering a value judgment on the comments, just clarifying the record.

 

[AWDstylez]

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deepdiver wrote:

Granted, Noam Chomsky is an anarchist with a hard socialist bent rather than a communist. But Alexcabbie didn't say Chomsky was a communist, he called you a communist, AWDstylez. Not offering a value judgment on the comments, just clarifying the record.

Good point. Can we both agree that he obviously called me a communist because he assumed I subscribe to Chomsky's views or was in some way a supporter?



However, if that's not what was implied, I'd love for him to make a casefor "AWD: communist." :lol:

 

[Alexcabbie]

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AWDstylez wrote:

Alexcabbie wrote:

AWDstylez wrote:

Alexcabbie wrote:

Note to Mr. Mole: I listen more to Mark Levin. You ought to call his show. He will hand you your behind before you know it's off.

LOL @ conservative talk radio. Listening to highly biased sources is always your best betwhen you want to be given your opinion. :lol:

Limbaugh would hand memy ass oncertain subjectsas equally well as Chomsky, or myself,would hand you yours. Ass handing isn't exactly a barometer for being right. It just shows relative levels of education and/or debating skillon a particular subject. Much like your total lack of an education has shown grosslyon the subject of economics.

CHOMSKY!?!???? NOAH FREAKING CHOMSKY???? YOU THINK I AM UNEDUCATED YOU DAMNED COMMUNIST???? Thanks for finally totally revealing yourself for who you are. And by the way, it was Mark Levin, not Limbaugh. If you are so damned smart then why can't you even get what I am saying straight?? You sir are complete justification for the resurrection of the House Un-American Activities Committee once the Republican party gets back in charge.

Actually I do think you're uneducated because I don't know who NOAH Chomsky is, although I'm sure NOAM Chomsky, the linguistics department head at MIT (among numerous other accomplishments), knows a hell of a lot more than you do about anything.Calling him a communist because of his humanitarian background and disagreement with US foreign policy is exactly what I would expect from someone as woefully uninformed as yourself.

The difference between someone likemyself and someone like you is thatI can defendmy opinion in a dynamic way with facts, data, andthe support of educated and experienced people because I understand why I believe what I believe and my beliefs are formed from my own research and self-education. You, on the other hand, are given your opinion by people you perceive to be right. You neither understand it,or do you question it, nor can you defend it in any kind of dynamic argument. Thus you resort to rhetoric, insults, and one liners you heard from Limbaugh. When you wake up and face reality, it sucks to realize that you have no real basis for anything you believe, just a whole lot ofemotion.

I was born in Indianapolis, Indiana in 1953. My dad served in the dorsal gun turret of a B24 and among other things flew on the Ploesti oil field raid. All of my uncles served in that war and not a few of my cousins fought in Vietnam. Not one male in my family shirked his service obligation, I was a criminal investigator in the USAF and served my overseas tour in the Panama Canal Zone.

In school we were taught respect for Flag and Country and I can just see the smirk on your goddamn face as you read this. We were taught about the Constitution and the political process. WE WWERE TAUGHT ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY AND ITS GREATNESS.

I joined the Cub Scouts as soon as I was able and in he Boy Scouts I held First Class rank and also warrants as Den Chief AND Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. I get goosebumps when I hear the National Anthem and sometimes tears flow when I see our Flag and think about what it stands for and what has been sacrificed to give it its place. So yes, I DO get just a TAD emotional when mooks like YOU start quoting academic drivel and telling us to watch a damn CARTOON so that our simple yokel brainpans can understand what the flapping of your elitist lips means.And by the way "yokels" like myself know that when someone presents a piece of impenetrable pseudo-academic argle-bargle it is not "Fact" it is OBFUSICATION.

Here's some news for you, Bucko. I have an IQ of 144 and am quite well educated thank you very much. Self educated?? How's this?: While most boystook the sports page to the can, I took a volume of Encyclopeadia Brittanica. Either tht or a dictionary. By the time I was 17 I had read through all 23 volumes. My opinions are not the result of listening to Limbaugh, they are a result of listening to my teachers, my parents, my Scoutmaster, my Aunts andUncles, my ministers, and the other adults in my life when I was kid. Maybe if somebody had taken a belt to your smartaleck little ass when you were a kid it might have beat some sense into you.

Now you go ahead and post the last word, you whack job. Some of us have to work for a living and I don't have any more time to waste on you. I'll let the other patriots on this forum finish you off. All you have is flapdoodle and insults. You are not worth any more of my time, MOLE.

 

[AWDstylez]

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Alexcabbie wrote:

I was born in Indianapolis, Indiana in 1953. My dad served in the dorsal gun turret of a B24 and among other things flew on the Ploesti oil field raid. All of my uncles served in that war and not a few of my cousins fought in Vietnam. Not one male in my family shirked his service obligation, I was a criminal investigator in the USAF and served my overseas tour in the Panama Canal Zone.

In school we were taught respect for Flag and Country and I can just see the smirk on your goddamn face as you read this. We were taught about the Constitution and the political process. WE WWERE TAUGHT ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY AND ITS GREATNESS.

I joined the Cub Scouts as soon as I was able and in he Boy Scouts I held First Class rank and also warrants as Den Chief AND Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. I get goosebumps when I hear the National Anthem and sometimes tears flow when I see our Flag and think about what it stands for and what has been sacrificed to give it its place. So yes, I DO get just a TAD emotional when mooks like YOU start quoting academic drivel and telling us to watch a damn CARTOON so that our simple yokel brainpans can understand what the flapping of your elitist lips means.And by the way "yokels" like myself know that when someone presents a piece of impenetrable pseudo-academic argle-bargle it is not "Fact" it is OBFUSICATION.

Here's some news for you, Bucko. I have an IQ of 144 and am quite well educated thank you very much. Self educated?? How's this?: While most boystook the sports page to the can, I took a volume of Encyclopeadia Brittanica. Either tht or a dictionary. By the time I was 17 I had read through all 23 volumes. My opinions are not the result of listening to Limbaugh, they are a result of listening to my teachers, my parents, my Scoutmaster, my Aunts andUncles, my ministers, and the other adults in my life when I was kid. Maybe if somebody had taken a belt to your smartaleck little ass when you were a kid it might have beat some sense into you.

Now you go ahead and post the last word, you whack job. Some of us have to work for a living and I don't have any more time to waste on you. I'll let the other patriots on this forum finish you off. All you have is flapdoodle and insults. You are not worth any more of my time, MOLE.

I wasn't aware we were comparing dick sizes. Maybe if you just stuck tothe issues you wouldn'tbe onthe verge of having a strokedefending familyand country in an argument about financials.



I'm still waiting for you to address these issues, in response to your first post about how its all thedemocrats' fault. That means I want you to explain how each of them had little-to-no effect on the current crisis and how it's all the democrats' fault.


AWDstylez wrote:

Yea, don't bother to factor in thederegulation put forth by the Republicans that led to the lack of discloser on the true value of the sub-prime mortgage backed securities. Hell, everyone STILL doesn't know what those assets are actually worth. Don't bother to factor in the "war on terruh" and it's effect on the US dollar and markets. And why would you even waste time considering the cyclical real estate values that just happened to drop at the worst possible time? How about Gee Dubya's record spending and budget deficit?Don't bother mentioning that either. Don't bother to recognize the fact that Gee Dubya pushed forward the corpratistic bailout bill that essentially socializes the responsibility to the tax payers, while keeping the profits in the hands of the private market. Maybe you need to look up the definition of Fascism. That bill was Gee Dub's baby and McCain voted for it as well. Cut the partisan crap and open your eyes.

So that's...

1. Republicanchampioned deregulation of everything under the sun

2. The effect of the illegal, Bush administration createdwars on the economy

3.Normal economic (rise andfall)effects on housing prices and how they effected the sub-prime backed securities market and thus this whole crisis

4. The backing of the new, pork enhanced bail out bill by Bush, McCain, and the republican party. They weren't on board for the first, bill, but add some pork and they all just in. Why?

5. Massive deficit created by Bush, a republican.

 

[Panos1296]

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There should be NO govt. regulations of any kind. The free market id more than capable of regulating itself. Govt intervention has NUMEROUS unintended consequences. This financial mess is one of them.

 

[AWDstylez]

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I could have sworn that the lesson learned from this is the exact opposite.Lack of regulationis the main cause of the crisis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/business/27sec.html



And if you want some finger pointing...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-weissman/deregulation-and-the-fina_b_82639.html



Now, if you can, give me an example of a long-term successful, truly, completely free market society.

 

[deepdiver]

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AWDstylez wrote:

I could have sworn that the lesson learned from this is the exact opposite.Lack of regulationis the main cause of the crisis.

Actually, the lesson learned from this is that using US financial markets for social engineering using the wealth of government (wealth confiscated from the people) to support government encouraged and sometimes mandated bad/overly risky lending practices and security instruments is a recipe for disaster.

 

[AWDstylez]

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deepdiver wrote:

AWDstylez wrote:

I could have sworn that the lesson learned from this is the exact opposite.Lack of regulationis the main cause of the crisis.

Actually, the lesson learned from this is that using US financial markets for social engineering using the wealth of government (wealth confiscated from the people) to support government encouraged and sometimes mandated bad/overly risky lending practices and security instruments is a recipe for disaster.

Care to elaborate? Was that a jab at Clinton's push for increased home ownership or something more?

 

[jopencarry]

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i love liberals who quote NYTIMES or hardcore left wing papers like huffington post for "facts"

thats like me quoting george bush for the facts on his presidency and how great it is.


someone ban this loser he is just a mole and a hardcore socialist loser. his mush brain has been filled to the brim with community college propaganda

 

[AWDstylez]

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jopencarry wrote:

i love liberals who quote NYTIMES or hardcore left wing papers like huffington post for "facts"

thats like me quoting george bush for the facts on his presidency and how great it is.


someone ban this loser he is just a mole and a hardcore socialist loser. his mush brain has been filled to the brim with community college propaganda

lol @ the Times being "hardcore left wing". I bet you think Faux News really is "fair and balanced" too. LOL There is no "right and left wing" in this because your beloved republicans are the ones pushing for the Fascist bailout strategies while the democrats put up a weak attempt to preserve a semi-free market. Again, get off the partisan thing. Maybe if you focused on anything outside of the gun control wedge issue you'd know what a joke partisan politics is.

I'm still waiting on some responses to the actual issues at hand rather than more attempted insults.

Just something else I thought of... This financial crisis isn't confined to this country. Did the democrats cause every major world market to crash too? Are the democrats responsible for the worldwide liquidity crisis? /images/emoticons/

 

[jopencarry]

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AWDstylez wrote:

jopencarry wrote:

i love liberals who quote NYTIMES or hardcore left wing papers like huffington post for "facts"

thats like me quoting george bush for the facts on his presidency and how great it is.


someone ban this loser he is just a mole and a hardcore socialist loser. his mush brain has been filled to the brim with community college propaganda

lol @ the Times being "hardcore left wing". I bet you think Faux News really is "fair and balanced" too. LOL There is no "right and left wing" in this because your beloved republicans are the ones pushing for the Fascist bailout strategies while the democrats put up a weak attempt to preserve a semi-free market. Again, get off the partisan thing. Maybe if you focused on anything outside of the gun control wedge issue you'd know what a joke partisan politics is.

I'm still waiting on some responses to the actual issues at hand rather than more attempted insults.

Just something else I thought of... This financial crisis isn't confined to this country. Did the democrats cause every major world market to crash too? Are the democrats responsible for the worldwide liquidity crisis? /images/emoticons/[/quote]
im not a republican.

you are unbelievably clueless. so pathetic... any person you tried to talk to in real life would laugh in your face with all the idiotic nonsense you spew here.

to throw that question back at you... are the Rs responsible for the "global market crash"

"democrats" are not responsible for the world. but liberalism/socialism is responsible. the world economy is extremely weak and especially without the US they would be living in squalor.

 

[isaiah]

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Everyone knows deep down that Libertarian is the only way to go...

Didn't something bad happen in 1913?

 

[AWDstylez]

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jopencarry wrote:

AWDstylez wrote:

jopencarry wrote:

i love liberals who quote NYTIMES or hardcore left wing papers like huffington post for "facts"

thats like me quoting george bush for the facts on his presidency and how great it is.


someone ban this loser he is just a mole and a hardcore socialist loser. his mush brain has been filled to the brim with community college propaganda

lol @ the Times being "hardcore left wing". I bet you think Faux News really is "fair and balanced" too. LOL There is no "right and left wing" in this because your beloved republicans are the ones pushing for the Fascist bailout strategies while the democrats put up a weak attempt to preserve a semi-free market. Again, get off the partisan thing. Maybe if you focused on anything outside of the gun control wedge issue you'd know what a joke partisan politics is.

I'm still waiting on some responses to the actual issues at hand rather than more attempted insults.

Just something else I thought of... This financial crisis isn't confined to this country. Did the democrats cause every major world market to crash too? Are the democrats responsible for the worldwide liquidity crisis? /images/emoticons/[/quote]
im not a republican.

you are unbelievably clueless. so pathetic... any person you tried to talk to in real life would laugh in your face with all the idiotic nonsense you spew here.

to throw that question back at you... are the Rs responsible for the "global market crash"

"democrats" are not responsible for the world. but liberalism/socialism is responsible. the world economy is extremely weak and especially without the US they would be living in squalor.
[/quote]



Where did I ever say the republicans were responsible for anything? I've repeatedly said all sides are at fault. I swear there's a horrendous lack of reading comprehension skill around here. Alex came straight out and said it was the democrats' fault. I'm STILL waiting for the issues posted to be addressed so that we can all clearly see that nothing caused this mess except the democrats, just like he said.

 

[Statesman]

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AWDstylez wrote:

Statesman wrote:

While the tendency for bankers to loosen lending practices is natural human behavior, such behavior is exacerbated ten fold when the money is easy to obtain through the Federal Reserve money creation mechanism (a printing press).

Come on man. Lay off the conspiracy theories and try to keep yourself grounded in reality. Does the source you got all that crap from haveany evidence to back any of it up? Nope.

Things like thatare designed to appeal to joe idiot and get him all up an frenzy because he doesn't understand how anything actually works. What's the works cited list look like on that piece? Non-existent I'm sure.

For one, the Fed doesn't print money, nor does it "make money". Again, appeals to joe idiotwho thinks that sounds reasonable. Banks create money through loans. It's calleda fractional reserve banking system. The Fed has indirect control on the money supply through manipulation of the interest rate and the buying and selling of bonds to the banks. This is intro. level economics, people. Come on now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

Don't believe every wack-talk thing you hear on the internet. Research it for yourself and educate yourself. Just because it sounds plausible doesn't make it true.

Conspiracy theory is often used by those that simply wish to dismiss things they don't agree with. I'm not going to argue over the semantics over which agency does the physical printing, because it's not relevant. The printing mechanism of modern banking was invented by the Central Banking Cartel, and it IS a cartel, because the bank needs the governments cooperation in order to force consumers to accept their Legal Tender status, otherwise there would be no paper money. If there was true value in a paper dollar, the free market would accept it, freely. That is a fact.

Congress authorizes the money creation itself when it borrows money, because it needs a way to fund their excessive spending habits. In the beginning, the Central Banks knew this, and they take full advantage of it to this day. This is not theory.

I'm not sure what "theory" you're referring to, however loose lending practices, in order to gain maximum profits are the norm with a paper money system, and it practically doesn't exist within a gold standard. Then again, credit is nowhere nearly available with a gold standard either. I have read about past bailouts, and a similar scenario as what we're currently witnessing takes place. It is present in the boom and bust cycles that we have witnessed since the creation of the Fed.

Banks create money through loans. It's called a fractional reserve banking system.

Agreed. The vast majority of money is created this way, and it's fraudulent. Banks create credit money, which is not physical cash. It only exists as an accounting entry in their ledger. There is no inherent value in paper promises (mortgages) other than a promise to pay interest on something that doesn't exist. Fractional Reserve Banking is an inherent scam, and started out that way in the very beginning. There should be 100% in reserve, always. That would have prevented bank runs, because it establishes and maintains trust.

I have done my own research, and none of this comes from "the internet". The history of the Fed is there for anyone to examine. The Feds record of promoting bad loans and reckless spending by governments. Now we are possibly witnessing the decline of the dollar as congress spends us into the ground through hyperinflation.

 

[Statesman]

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Panos1296 wrote:

There should be NO govt. regulations of any kind. The free market id more than capable of regulating itself. Govt intervention has NUMEROUS unintended consequences. This financial mess is one of them.

Prosecute fraud, and enforce contracts. That's it, from my understanding.

 

[Panos1296]

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AWDstylez wrote:

I could have sworn that the lesson learned from this is the exact opposite.Lack of regulationis the main cause of the crisis.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/27/business/27sec.html



And if you want some finger pointing...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-weissman/deregulation-and-the-fina_b_82639.html



Now, if you can, give me an example of a long-term successful, truly, completely free market society.

Nope, I cant give an example because govt wont allow a completely free market society. Can you give me an example of good govt oversight? OF course not. Govt creates havoc in everything it touches. People blame the mess on deregulation and the excesses of capitalism but tell me this:

In a country with a central bank, wage and price controls, protectionism, punishing taxes, corporate subsidies, and a fiat currency, please tell me how capitalism is to blame.

 

[Panos1296]

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Statesman wrote:

Panos1296 wrote:

There should be NO govt. regulations of any kind. The free market id more than capable of regulating itself. Govt intervention has NUMEROUS unintended consequences. This financial mess is one of them.

Prosecute fraud, and enforce contracts. That's it, from my understanding.

Agreed. Thats the way it should be. We can dream cant we?

 

[deepdiver]

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AWDstylez wrote:

deepdiver wrote:

AWDstylez wrote:

I could have sworn that the lesson learned from this is the exact opposite.Lack of regulationis the main cause of the crisis.

Actually, the lesson learned from this is that using US financial markets for social engineering using the wealth of government (wealth confiscated from the people) to support government encouraged and sometimes mandated bad/overly risky lending practices and security instruments is a recipe for disaster.

Care to elaborate? Was that a jab at Clinton's push for increased home ownership or something more?

Clinton wasn't a legislator and congress is where the problem began albeit with Clinton's encouragement, and my earlier comment was not a jab but rather just a fact. But the story doesn't end there. Despite Greenspan telling all of congress publicly by 2001 that this would happen, the republican controlled congress over six years did nothing to fix it. N.o.t.h.i.n.g. A few individual congressmen tried to do something, most but not all were republicans including McCain, several fought hard to block something, anything, that might have averted this, in particular Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and Harry Reid. Unfortunately both sides of the aisle continued to play politics while a crescendo of disaster built.

There is plenty of blame to go around. Yes, the social engineering/socialist agendas of the left/dems started this ball rolling and created the underlying conditions where it could grow and lead to this. But, the right/republicans were too busy having an orgy of spending and power plays to bother to fix it several years ago when it could have been slowly and effectively fixed without tumbling world markets.

So the culprit was social engineering/socialistic government policy. That was willingly aided and abetted by willfully ignoring it by what I guess would be neo-cons, or what the right would call RINOs who took control of the party after W's election and strongly party-line supported and encouraged by the left/democrats.

Deregulation had nothing to do with this and anyone who says it does either doesn't understand what happened or is intentionally throwing out a red herring to evade responsibility or reality or to try to play a partisan blame game.

Both dominant parties are culpable which is why I think "We're Screwed '08" is the most appropriate campaign slogan this year as it the only slogan that covers both candidates.