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How we got into this financial mess...

Dom

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A completely free market doesn't work. I think that's beyond debate. So what's the issue?
When have we had a completely free market? Governments screw with the markets and always have.

Let's look at what issues are up for presidential debate. Healthcare, energy, and the economy.

For healthcare, this country used to have neighborhood doctors. There was no such thing as medical insurance. You'd go to Doc Smith down the street, tell him your problems, he'd prescribe something you could afford because there were no "prescription plans", and everything would be fine. Americans paid cash for the visit and prescriptions. Amazingly they were affordable! The HMO act of 1973 (i.e. regulation) killed our healthcare system.

For energy, demand for energy has been increasing along with the population increase. Refineries haven't kept up with population, why not? No new nuclear power plants have been built, why not? For refineries, it takes YEARS to get the proper permits and get through the red tape. For nuclear plants, it's even worse and the spectre of 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl in government has unrealistically stopped any new construction. Then there's the environmentalists worried about how a deer will react when it encounters a pipeline 10ft above its antlers. Too much regulation has kept domestic energy production artificially low.

For the economy, as I've stated we are not free market and look at the mess we're in. Our money is based not on any standard, but some ethereal concept. Do you know you can buy a gallon of gas for 30 cents? That's if you use a silver dollar. The same thing happened with capital that's happened with the dollar. Capital used to be based on savings, not so anymore. The Federal Reserve is a joke. They fiddle with the discount rate and never know which way to go and it usually has an opposite effect. How effective is the discount rate, when we're down to 1.5% now and mortgage rates are still higher than 5 years ago? Congress is worse than the Fed, they have no clue what to do but stick their grubby fingers into the market anyway when they screwed it up in the first place. Then we have these bailouts, which the stock market hasn't responded to and the banks being bailed out are flawed to begin with, and the bailout bills are loaded with pork. Let these dumb banks fail, there ARE strong banks out there and they're ready to buy up the failing ones. The market itself is the best market regulator, the government isn't competent enought to mess with it. Now our government is going to invest in banks, has already invested in bad, bad mortgages...which are the result of the government giving credit to unworthy creditors through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (more stupid regulation)...and who knows what else. To top it all off, based on the current polls we're going to elect a president who is going to raise taxes just like Hoover in 1929.

BTW, I don't know what this has to do with OCDO :?.
 

Doug Huffman

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http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/cures.htm

INJECTED CURES

We have variously explored mathematical impossibilities of Welfare, Medicare, Social Security... Head Start, Homeland Severity, the War on [you name it]... Enviro-whinerism, burning food for fuel, NINJA financing... destroying the Gifted while lavishing charity upon the Officially Sad. Look what jackbooted State compassion dumped on us.

Accountancy values an enterprise upon liquidation. Few enterprises other than government-subsidized porkbarrels are run for liquidation (hello 15 April!). Now we discover that, like check kiting, debt cannot be written forward forever.

The entire nation, most of its residents, and all its squidish international tentacles are highly pressurized (think Viagra, Cialis, Levitra) by a fiction of short term credit versus long term debt. The US is minimum $60 trillion in the hole given all sectors public and private. Interest on that debt would exceed the GDP if it were not part of the GDP. That makes it worse.

Stupidity and corruption practiced upon a sufficiently large scale earn reply in kind. Ancient Rome reserved crucifixion for those whose crimes endangered Senãtus Populusque Rõmãnus. Spartacus' revolt lined the 71 BC Appian Way from Rome to Capua, 212 km, with 6000+ rotting corpses at 116 foot intervals. The Beltway is a circular freeway 103 km in circumference enclosing Washington, DC's alphabet soup of incompetence and cupidity. Halve the spacing.

Effective solutions cast aside, what remains?

One obvious remedy is voluntary cooperation with Federal confiscation of all private wealth summing to less than $5 million/person in assets. 30% of the nation is already on the Dole in one manner or another. Washington would simply triple its biweekly mailings while promising to return the principle after massive inflation. It would be Social Security writ large with no COLA to lubricate its passage. Nobody important would be disquieted. If you have mortgage or tax payments, get a second job.

Absent voluntary cooperation, they'll take it anyway. These bastards delivered mandatory automotive air bags and the Patriot Act, NSA domestic wiretapping, US prison ships, Extraordinary Rendition (torture by proxy), armed US Federal Air Marshals, CIA Torture Manual, TSA, Echelon, Carnivore, Omnivore, TIA, Secure Flight, CAPPSII, AAMVA Project, MATRIX, COINTELPRO, OFAC Scholary Publishing Censorship, I-Visa, RFID electronic passports, ChoicePoint, Protect America Act (PAA), 2006 Military Commissions Act (MCA), Real ID Act, Secure Fence Act of 2006, Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act, FBI Regional Data Exchange, DHS/Federal police access to military spy satellites, Bush the Lesser negating Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) of 1978, Fraudulent Online Identity Sanctions Act, Guantanamo Bay, Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP), 2005 Strategy for Homeland Defense and Civil Support, militarization of law enforcement, 2006 Military Commission Act, No-Fly List, VoIP wiretapping, CALEA, reporter surveillance, DHS Automated Targeting System, Defense Authorization Act of 2007.

A second tactic is demonetarizing the dollar. Burp a polite "sorry" and invite the world to file a lawsuit in The Hague if it wants real or virtual greenbacks to trade for chattels. As some 80% of US manufacture is outsourced, you would be growing your own turnips without a hoe. On the bright side, it is a sink for what would nominally disappear down your now whimsical toilets to nowhere. Drinking water is left as an exercise for the alert reader (especially in the US Southwest).

Third choice is starting a world war. 11 September 2001 thence $5 billion/week to bother Middle East Muslims proved to be no Reichstag fire. It eerily recalled Sheriff Black Bart (Cleavon Little) in Blazing Saddles holding a gun to his own head and shouting,
"Hold it. The next man makes a move, the nigger gets it... Drop it! For I swear, I'll blow this nigger's head all over this town. 'Oh Lordy-lord, he's desperate. Do what he say. Do what he say'."[American two party politics in a paragraph. Sheriff GOP and Black demos]
Imagine Secretary of the Treasury Henry M (Hank) Paulson, Jr. supine in blackface as President Bush the Lesser avidly sniffs his lofted hairy baggage. It happened. Repeatedly.

The 2008 US Presidential election promises a choice. It is incompetent fascists, corporatists, and double-digit IQ christ- besotted jackasses (Manchurian candidate McCain & Moose Jewel) against bleeding heart Liberals, welfare pimps, Enviro-whiners, feminazis, and Queer Nation (Dark Lord of the Senate and his chihuahua). God save us from the congenitally unimportant.

If 51% of the active US electorate is not completely insane and stupid (Florida and Arizona excluded), Obama gets the brass ring. Having turned our backs upon the Party of Bad Ideas, what will the Party of No Ideas foment? In the great tradition of Democrat impotence, patrician FDR to sovereignty slut Nancy Pelosi... we expect frantic Chinese fire drills summing to nothing.

Historic US national debt in constant dollars hovered below $2 trillion from 1950 through Ronald Reagan's oath of office in January 1981. A fair burden upon all citizens and 30 million Mexican illegals who do not bank offshore would be to inflate the dollar to 1/30 its current value in .999 fine gold. $60 trillion is suddenly tractable. The problem vanishes in eight short years of compounded 3.606%/month inflation. No problem.
 

AWDstylez

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, Connecticut, USA
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Panos1296 wrote:
AWDstylez wrote:
Panos1296 wrote:
In a country with a central bank, wage and price controls, protectionism, punishing taxes, welfare, corporate subsidies, incomprehensible labor laws, and a fiat currency, please tell me how capitalismor deregulation is to blame for this mess. Thousands of pages of regulations and trillions of dollars spent and you still arent satisfied? Havent they destoyed liberty enough??



A completely free market doesn't work. I think that's beyond debate. So what's the issue?

Yes, we have excess and sometimes idiotic regulation in some areas that don't need it and we have little to no regulation in some areas that do need it. Such is life. When you come up with a perfectly functioning market system be sure to let everyone know. *hint hint* it's not a free market

You might find this interesting: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1843168,00.html

How do you know a completely free market doesnt work? It is obvious this semi-national, semi-socialist system we have doesnt work. It never has and never will.

ALL, YES ALL, govt regulations have unintended consequences!! You are seeing them now.

Ask yourself, when did this country begin to have boom/bust cycles? YES, AFTER the inception of the Federal Reserve in 1913. Followed by an income tax, followed by FDR's govt takeover called the New Deal. Now the "business cycle" (it should be called the regulation cycle) is seen as a natural occurence associated with businesses. Actuallyit is the combination of govt intervention, arbitrary interest rates, and a fiat currency that causes the cycles. You cant educate yourself reading mass media publications like Time,etc... May I recommend Walter Williams, Ron Paul, Murray Rothbard and John Stossel?



Link me, I'm interested.

I'm not an economist by any means, but I was of the understanding that thebusiness cycle was a trait of the FREE market. If you've got someone that can show it isn't, by all means point me in their direction. I'm open to new ideas. I don't have time now, but I'll look up the guys you listed. And, fyi, I'm a Ron Paul fan, but let's be honest, he's an OBGYN, not a economist. You also can't reference anything off the start of the Fed in 1913. The world was a difference place before that time and the world we're living in now is not comparable to anything in the past.
 

Panos1296

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Jun 13, 2008
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Charlotte, North Carolina, USA
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Ron Paul became interested in Econ after med school. He read numerous books and didnt like what he saw in govt. Thats why he ran for Congress, thank God he did. He is the lone doctor/economist in a world of lawyers in DC. The following links will point you in the direction of Austrian economics.

http://www.mises.org/

This link is an article about Frederick Hayek, also a great economist, on the business cycle. Although, I have to admit, I did not read this article yet:

http://mises.org/story/3113

Lew Rockwell's homepage has numerous articles on Econ and Libertarian thought:

http://lewrockwell.com/

Walter Williams' weekly columns. He isnt an Austrian economist but a great libertarian thinker:

http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams

John Stossel's weekly columns:

http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStossel

The Ron Paul page at LewRockwell.com:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/

Oh, and I just found this one too. Murray Rothbard on the business cycle:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard44.html

Book by Rothbard at Amazon. "The Case Against the Fed":

http://www.amazon.com/Case-Against-Fed-Murray-Rothbard/dp/094546617X/ref=sr_1_3/104-5035952-2839124?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223779848&sr=8-3



A lot of links. I hope this helps. Knock yourself out.
 
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