• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Incident at walmart

Ivan Sample

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
295
Location
Louisville, Kentucky, USA
What ever you say! It was flat out bashing sc0tt on his actions that he took and you and others was bashing/criticizing him on that. Read your post and others it's right there for you to see it. You can call it what you want-it is what it is plain to see.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
What ever you say! It was flat out bashing sc0tt on his actions that he took and you and others was bashing/criticizing him on that. Read your post and others it's right there for you to see it. You can call it what you want-it is what it is plain to see.


Please explain to me how citing case law, statutes, and the NC Attorney General's ow Firearms Law guidebook to illustrate how someone handled a situation incorrectly even remotely classifies as "bashing".

A new member, with a low post count, and no CHP (so presumably he has little training in the laws of NC Self Defense law) posted his account of an incident where he was clearly "over the line". He posted this account on a public forum, which has as it's primary purpose the sharing of information, discussion of the law, analysis of events, and education of it's members.

If his actions were 100% within the law, he would be told so.

But since he actions were outside the bounds of what is normally considered to be an appropriate response under NC law, we attempted to show him where he went wrong, WHY his actions were beyond the pale, and how he could avoid getting in trouble in the future.

He's been VERY lucky. Evntually, if he doesn't get some proper training and change his attitude, his luck will run out. We're just trying to help him be a more responsible, lawful, and appropriate OCer in North Carolina.

How that qualifies as "bashing", I'm at a loss to understand...

Honestly, I think most of the negative responses to his "report" have been very polite, informative, and enlightening. Personally, I've been trying my hardest to be painfully polite and factual. I've been tempted a few times to really let some of the members on this thread have it, but I've held my tongue, remained civil, and stuck to the facts.

But my ability to tolerate some of the whiney cowboys on this forum is running thin...
 

Ivan Sample

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
295
Location
Louisville, Kentucky, USA
Dreamer are you asking me this question? The bashing comes in where folks in here are talking about his grammar, spelling, demeanor. Should I go and explain more to you about bashing/criticizing others in here. Please if you feel like going off in here by all means do so. All you have to do is PM me and I will give you my address and we can sit down and talk face to face. That is if I one of the whiney cowboys in here!
 
Last edited:

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I may disagree with some of the things NavyLT has said in this thread, but he is one of the most informed posters here. I must take exception with your post as off-point and personal.
 

Ivan Sample

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
295
Location
Louisville, Kentucky, USA
eye95-

This NavyLT is out of control with some of the ******** that he post in this forum. Its not a matter of disagreeing with him-that I could accept but the **** he is doing now is unacceptable.
 

Ivan Sample

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
295
Location
Louisville, Kentucky, USA
NavyLT-

I am tire of all the ******** that is going in here and my patience was thin but now they to the point where I am speaking my mind and maybe I should cool off a bit. I have been reading alot of post in here and all I see is people being bash/criticize in here. What for I don't know-for them telling what happen to them. There is right way to give people advice with bashing them. You say and others don't think that Sc0tt is be bash in here I suggest you read your post and others. When you make things PERSONAL then I considered it to be bashing and criticizing. Yes, I am very aware of post #103 and my question is" whatever" Me bashing you-call it what you want, Then stop bashing other in here bully!
 
Last edited:

John Pierce

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
1,777
NavyLT-

I am tire of all the ******** that is going in here and my patience was thin but now they to the point where I am speaking my mind and maybe I should cool off a bit.

Yes ... you should. Disagreement doesn't require a descent into personal attacks and cursing.


John
 

COMMANDER1911

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
129
Location
Flintstone, GA
Ivan,

I agree with Dreamer 100 percent. Citing case law and other forms of information is NOT bashing. This in an informational forum, so if someone whom is not familiar with the law reacts to a situation with borderline legality, they need to recieve some instruction so they don't end up in prison in the future. People here need to have thick skin and actually LISTEN to the more experienced and informed members (IE- Eye95, Dreamer, ETC).

Now, my opinion on the OP. I would not have interjected myself into a situation that is none of my business, unless of course a life was in danger. If I was having an argument with an individual, and some stranger with no authority tries to interject, I would be upset too. I would simply have called the police, stood by and watched it unfold. If at any point I thought someone might be in jeopardy of losing their life, I would then take the appropriate steps. Otherwise, leave well enough alone.
 
Last edited:

Ivan Sample

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
295
Location
Louisville, Kentucky, USA
COMMANDER1911-

Let me ask you this question: Would you just stand by and watch someone get badly beat up or possible lose their life over something so stupid as a parking lot incident? For me I couldn't do that, if anything I will draw that attacker attention to me so he could stop beating up the victim. I wouldn't even have to produce my weapon either. Its all a matter of coming to someone aid when they are in need of help. I would expect for someone to help me if I was in that situation. I respect your opinion and their is no right or wrong answer. I just always fall back on the training that I received from some good people here in Louisville and Wisconsin. I will always continue to train and learn about self defense.
 
Last edited:

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
The standard I would apply before inserting myself into a situation (that I had not otherwise been swept into) would be, "Is there a threat to life or limb?" In this case, as described by the OP, there wasn't. I'd've stood by, observing, ready to insert, calling 911.

However, none of us were there. We don't know that the situation did not develop in a way in which the OP was naturally swept up into it. Since he showed tremendous restraint once in the situation, I will not question his entering it.
 

COMMANDER1911

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
129
Location
Flintstone, GA
COMMANDER1911-

Let me ask you this question: Would you just stand by and watch someone get badly beat up or possible lose their life over something so stupid as a parking lot incident? For me I couldn't do that, if anything I will draw that attacker attention to me so he could stop beating up the victim. I wouldn't even have to produce my weapon either. Its all a matter of coming to someone aid when they are in need of help. I would expect for someone to help me if I was in that situation. I respect your opinion and their is no right or wrong answer. I just always fall back on the training that I received from some good people here in Louisville and Wisconsin. I will always continue to train and learn about self defense.

If you read my post, you would have seen that I would interject if someone was in danger of losing their life. And yes, someone being seriously beaten qualifies too. The OP however, never said the "victim" was being seriously beaten. I too rely on my training as a former Marine and former LEO, and I would not stand by and let someone get seriously injured. I just don't believe that was the case here.
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
It's certainly not out of the question that some sociopathic thug might actually kill someone over a parking spot. In fact, it happened in October in Baltimore. An off-duty BPD officer was killed over a parking spot near a popular downtown club when some thug hit him in the head with a "fist-sized chunk of concrete":

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...detective-baltimore-officer-anthony-guglielmi

However, THAT particular thug was "armed"--with a stone--but "armed" with something other than fists, none-the-less.

But a loud-mouthed thug, standing in the open, in a WalMart parking lot punching someone in the face (who, BTW, didn't require medical treatment, according to the OP) doesn't really qualify as an "imminent deadly threat".

As much as we'd like to be able to just flash our guns at people, or put our hands on the butts of our guns, or otherwise allude to the fact that we are armed as a method to circumvent low-level social annoyances, under NC law, it's not allowed.

The OP was OCing. That makes him--whether he wants to be or not--an ambassador for ALL Open Carriers. He needs to KNOW the law and conventions in the state where he is acting, and abide by them. His actions will be interpreted by the media, the police, and other bystanders as beng representative of ALL OCers, and I for one, don't want some hotshot cowboy who doesn't know the law speaking for me. He needs to re-adjust his way of thinking, and understand that when he's not in uniform, the rules of engagement are RADICALLY different.

If he wants to have a lifestyle where he can inject himself into unknown situations, flash a gun, and through the threat of deadly force, persuade thugs, criminals, and sociopaths to act in a more civil, lawful, and personable manner, then I suggest he apply to the NC Police Academy and try to become a cop. The government sanctioned "monopoly on force" isn't fair, it isn't right, and I think it's downright dangerous to Liberty. But it is the law, and until we change that, citizens do not have the legal right or authority to threaten people with massive escalation of force like police do. Even if we may be morally justified in doing so, the law says we can't.

Personally, I think that the OPs response to this situation went wrong LONG before he manipulated the retention on his holster. His mistake happened in his head, when he decided that he would intervene in a situation that did not concern him, which he knew nothing about, and was already being addressed by the property owner's "agent".

Had the OP been the one to be punched in the face, then perhaps I might be a little more sympathetic. Bu the wasn't. Nor did he know, or have any connection to the "victim". He was a passer-by who injected himself into an unknown situation, and then attempted to "play cop" when the offending party came back for "round two".

Had he positioned himself, while attending to the "victim" and talking with the manager, so that his OC'd firearm was clearly visible to the "BG", I doubt the "BG" would have come back, shouting threats. But he apparently injected himself into this situation, and then AFTER the BG made his second approach, he very purposefully and visibly manipulated his holster so that the BG would be sure to see it.

That is a VERY different action than just walking up on a situation while OCing.

For citizens, the "rules of engagement" are MUCH different, and he needs to know them.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but the OP needs to find a qualified instructor and sign up for a Self Defense class in NC, or perhaps a CHP qualification course. He needs to study and KNOW the law here in NC, or else he will eventually find himself arrested--or worse.

The rules of engagement for citizens in NC in self-defense situations are NOT the same as the rules of engagement for an armed security guard, and they sure as hell are NOT the same as the RoE for an Army EOD operator.

He needs to get it through his skull that when he's acting as a citizen, the rules are VERY different. I don't know how to put that any clearer...

We don't want to read a news story about the OP's arrest, or worse yet, his obituary because some LEO mistook him for a BG because he was reaching for his gun to try and defuse another WalMart fistfight in the future.

Please, "Scott", I'm begging you.
Find a qualified instructor, and take a freaking course.
Your safety, your freedom, and your LIFE depend on it...
 
Last edited:

COMMANDER1911

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
129
Location
Flintstone, GA
It's certainly not out of the question that some sociopathic thug might actually kill someone over a parking spot. In fact, it happened in October in Baltimore. An off-duty BPD officer was killed over a parking spot near a popular downtown club when some thug hit him in the head with a "fist-sized chunk of concrete":

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...detective-baltimore-officer-anthony-guglielmi

However, THAT particular thug was "armed"--with a stone--but "armed" with something other than fists, none-the-less.

But a loud-mouthed thug, standing in the open, in a WalMart parking lot punching someone in the face (who, BTW, didn't require medical treatment, according to the OP) doesn't really qualify as an "imminent deadly threat".

As much as we'd like to be able to just flash our guns at people, or put our hands on the butts of our guns, or otherwise allude to the fact that we are armed as a method to circumvent low-level social annoyances, under NC law, it's not allowed.

The OP was OCing. That makes him--whether he wants to be or not--an ambassador for ALL Open Carriers. He needs to KNOW the law and conventions in the state where he is acting, and abide by them. His actions will be interpreted by the media, the police, and other bystanders as beng representative of ALL OCers, and I for one, don't want some hotshot cowboy who doesn't know the law speaking for me. He needs to re-adjust his way of thinking, and understand that when he's not in uniform, the rules of engagement are RADICALLY different.

If he wants to have a lifestyle where he can inject himself into unknown situations, flash a gun, and through the threat of deadly force, persuade thugs, criminals, and sociopaths to act in a more civil, lawful, and personable manner, then I suggest he apply to the NC Police Academy and try to become a cop. The government sanctioned "monopoly on force" isn't fair, it isn't right, and I think it's downright dangerous to Liberty. But it is the law, and until we change that, citizens do not have the legal right or authority to threaten people with massive escalation of force like police do. Even if we may be morally justified in doing so, the law says we can't.

Personally, I think that the OPs response to this situation went wrong LONG before he manipulated the retention on his holster. His mistake happened in his head, when he decided that he would intervene in a situation that did not concern him, which he knew nothing about, and was already being addressed by the property owner's "agent".

Had the OP been the one to be punched in the face, then perhaps I might be a little more sympathetic. Bu the wasn't. Nor did he know, or have any connection to the "victim". He was a passer-by who injected himself into an unknown situation, and then attempted to "play cop" when the offending party came back for "round two".

Had he positioned himself, while attending to the "victim" and talking with the manager, so that his OC'd firearm was clearly visible to the "BG", I doubt the "BG" would have come back, shouting threats. But he apparently injected himself into this situation, and then AFTER the BG made his second approach, he very purposefully and visibly manipulated his holster so that the BG would be sure to see it.

That is a VERY different action than just walking up on a situation while OCing.

For citizens, the "rules of engagement" are MUCH different, and he needs to know them.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but the OP needs to find a qualified instructor and sign up for a Self Defense class in NC, or perhaps a CHP qualification course. He needs to study and KNOW the law here in NC, or else he will eventually find himself arrested--or worse.

The rules of engagement for citizens in NC in self-defense situations are NOT the same as the rules of engagement for an armed security guard, and they sure as hell are NOT the same as the RoE for an Army EOD operator.

He needs to get it through his skull that when he's acting as a citizen, the rules are VERY different. I don't know how to put that any clearer...

We don't want to read a news story about the OP's arrest, or worse yet, his obituary because some LEO mistook him for a BG because he was reaching for his gun to try and defuse another WalMart fistfight in the future.

Please, "Scott", I'm begging you.
Find a qualified instructor, and take a freaking course.
Your safety, your freedom, and your LIFE depend on it...

+ 1 million
 

Ivan Sample

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
295
Location
Louisville, Kentucky, USA
You folks continue to do what you want and I will continue to do what I do. I just hope I not reading about in a newspaper or the Late breaking news. See yeah, wouldn't want to be yeah! Peace out and I will go to a better forum where there is comptent people at!
 

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
We don't have to agree to learn from each other. I am sorry to see that you are so dismissive of folks simply because you have different views.

It would be different if a poster were being routinely insulting or routinely dishonest in his rhetoric, but that is not generally the case here. I hope you take the time to reread what is posted here. There is valuable information and insightful perspective here if you can look past a little bit of bluster.
 

COMMANDER1911

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2010
Messages
129
Location
Flintstone, GA
You folks continue to do what you want and I will continue to do what I do. I just hope I not reading about in a newspaper or the Late breaking news. See yeah, wouldn't want to be yeah! Peace out and I will go to a better forum where there is comptent people at!

Can someone translate this?
 

Dreamer

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
MODERATORS:

Perhaps this thread would be better placed in the NC-specific forum?

What do you other folks think?
 
Top