Intent to open carry in Milwaukee

[Doug Huffman]

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Parabellum wrote:

But i was wondering something, the mags taken were fully loaded and the springs are all the way down, how long before the springsare damaged? I used to unload at least one every night so that they wouldnt get damaged.

Should be your very last worry. Read up on metallurgy, fatigue, creep and so on. The Wikipedia does a good job.

 

[bnhcomputing]

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ccwtrainer wrote:

I schedule my training and carry guns on my hoeowners policy.

I can make a claim for all of my lost / stolen property and let the insurer fight it out with the cops on their nickle.

Being re-armed ASAP is the goal.

I was wondering if there is another thread, or could you start one providing more details about “insurance.”

 

[smithman]

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Parabellum, magazine springs can creep over time when under a constant load. It depends on the spring type. Over a long period of time of constant load, years, this can have an effect. Usually I leave my 15 round mags loaded with 11 rounds for 1-2 months, then I cycle the magazines. Probably overkill between lower round number and mag cycling, but I know I won't have any problems.

Fatigue results from load cycling only. Most high quality springs will not fatigue, since they aren't cycled as much as a recoil spring, for instance.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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I disagree.

Creep requires elevated temperature like 30% of melting (absolute) temperature in ferrous alloys or ~600K.

Creep is a failure mode. I doubt other than designers of Saturday Night specials would sell a product with a known failure mode.

The Wikipedia article illustrates and defines the terms of the general creep equation.

Fatigue numbers are like >10^4 cycles. Again, it is a known failure mode likely to be found only in Saturday Night Specials. You ain't going to get to 10^4.

 

[Ohio Patriot]

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smithman wrote:

magazine springs can creep over time when under a constant load. It depends on the spring type. Over a long period of time of constant load, years, this can have an effect.

Hogwash. Springs are made of steel. Steel doesn't creep unless it's heated toa fairly high temperature. More info here:



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130369

 

[apjonas]

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bnhcomputing wrote:

ccwtrainer wrote:

I schedule my training and carry guns on my hoeowners policy.

I can make a claim for all of my lost / stolen property and let the insurer fight it out with the cops on their nickle.

Being re-armed ASAP is the goal.

I was wondering if there is another thread, or could you start one providing more details about “insurance.”

This comment is dopey. The gun was neither lost nor stolen. Furthermore, there is almost always an exclusion for governmental action and Parabellum, while a sympathetic character, was directly responsible for the loss by his actions. This is not to condone any bad acts by the police/DA but rather to show howan insurance company will look at it.

 

[Parabellum]

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apjonas wrote:

bnhcomputing wrote:

ccwtrainer wrote:

I schedule my training and carry guns on my hoeowners policy.

I can make a claim for all of my lost / stolen property and let the insurer fight it out with the cops on their nickle.

Being re-armed ASAP is the goal.

I was wondering if there is another thread, or could you start one providing more details about “insurance.”

This comment is dopey. The gun was neither lost nor stolen. Furthermore, there is almost always an exclusion for governmental action and Parabellum, while a sympathetic character, was directly responsible for the loss by his actions. This is not to condone any bad acts by the police/DA but rather to show howan insurance company will look at it.

What actions are you talking about apjonas? And how do those actions make me directly responsible for the seizure of my property? And don't try to cover your self by justifying it with the last sentence. Youimply thatopen carrywarrants the seizure of property. Those directly responsible are the uninformed police that seized it.

 

[bnhcomputing]

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bnhcomputing wrote:

ccwtrainer wrote:

I schedule my training and carry guns on my hoeowners policy.

I can make a claim for all of my lost / stolen property and let the insurer fight it out with the cops on their nickle.

Being re-armed ASAP is the goal.

I was wondering if there is another thread, or could you start one providing more details about “insurance.”

My comment/request was more towards what type of insurance does ccwtrainer recommend for liability and such. Is there some special policy required if one is carrying,what company would provide this insureance, etc. ?

That's why I asked about an "insurance" thread, no intent to hijack.

 

[ccwtrainer]

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Okay, go look now...

 

[Rick Finsta]

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Liability exclusions for government generally do not cover illegal activities or acts performed under color of law. There is no legal difference between a cop takinga lawfully owned weapon without lawful pretense during a stop, and that same cop breaking intoa house at night and taking it froma closet. Either way, that officer bears liability for a theft,though the union will probably do their best to make it a "training issue" to delegate responsibility to the police department in this case. (That's not to say it ISN'T a training issue, as many WI cops are explicitly taught that OC is DC, but ignorance of the law is not a viable defense, so I don't see that flying in front of a reasonable judge.)

That being said, I would be surprised if an insurer did not seek recourse in a case such as this. What if an officer illegally "commandeered" your car and crashed it? No insurer would hesitate to go after the department if the act had been performed with the officer acting in some official capacity.

 

[ccwtrainer]

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If you are made whole, and the insurer subrogates against a third party, who cares.

The point is, you are made whole.

 

[smithman]

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Rick you make some good points. The insurance company would indeed go after the department if an officer commondeered (glorified theft) your car.

Confiscation without probable cause and/or due process IS theft! The fifth amendment prohibits this kind of government abuse. And a conversation with an LEO does NOT in itself give the LEO due process to do anything!

 

[apjonas]

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You carried openly and had the gun seized by police. The seizure was occasioned by the OC. Is this the kind of event the policy envisioned? I don't think so. And most policies say that loss by governmental action is not covered. You might be able to take action against the officer(s) and department but if the actions were based upon the officer's reasonable belief then the most you could recover is the gun (or its value). State and federal governments are generally not subject to suit unless they consent. Lower levels may be. But these are the kinds of things your attorney should be dealing with. What does he say? and what is the status of your case?



Parabellum wrote:

apjonas wrote:

bnhcomputing wrote:

ccwtrainer wrote:

I schedule my training and carry guns on my hoeowners policy.

I can make a claim for all of my lost / stolen property and let the insurer fight it out with the cops on their nickle.

Being re-armed ASAP is the goal.

I was wondering if there is another thread, or could you start one providing more details about “insurance.”

This comment is dopey. The gun was neither lost nor stolen. Furthermore, there is almost always an exclusion for governmental action and Parabellum, while a sympathetic character, was directly responsible for the loss by his actions. This is not to condone any bad acts by the police/DA but rather to show howan insurance company will look at it.

What actions are you talking about apjonas? And how do those actions make me directly responsible for the seizure of my property? And don't try to cover your self by justifying it with the last sentence. Youimply thatopen carrywarrants the seizure of property. Those directly responsible are the uninformed police that seized it.

 

[Parabellum]

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Didn'tI already state that the conference is on the 4th? Nothing "legal" happens until then.

 

[Nytedrgn]

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Para I hope everything works out for you....I know I'd be pretty flustered if all this crap had happened to me. And Thank you for keeping us posted.....

Sorry I've been gone for so long....been job hunting and cleaning up after the storm we had.

 

[Parabellum]

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Tomorrow June 4th is another conference and this time ill either be charged or have my weapon returned to me. My next post should be something worth reading. Wish me luck.

 

[apjonas]

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Parabellum wrote:

Tomorrow June 4th is another conference and this time ill either be charged or have my weapon returned to me. My next post should be something worth reading. Wish me luck.

Luck! Although I don't think you need it because you have the law on your side. Once the charges are dropped, get your attorney to file for a declaratory judgment. Let's put an end to this nonsense, once and for all. Tell usif you need financial assistance. I can see the case in Wisconsin Reports and think of the news story some day....

The City of Milwaukee paid out a record $1.5 million judgment to a local man who was unlawfully arrested for the open carry of a handgun. Citing the Wisconsin Supreme Court Case of "In re Parabellum"......

 

[Pointman]

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*

 

[Shotgun]

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I hope he not only gets his property, but some of the city's property!

 

[apjonas]

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Shotgun wrote:

I hope he not only gets his property, but some of the city's property!

This is where a declaratory judgment has value. A judicial determination that naked open carry is a constitutionally protected activity would put law enforcement on notice. They would know (or should know) that harassment of OC is illegal. This is a tremendous opportunity. If Parabellum agrees to be the vehicle and he gets the support he needs ($ and otherwise) all these concerns (and threads) about OC=DC, etc. in Wisconsin will be moot.