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Kicked out of Barnes & Noble an hour ago (potomac yard)!

Wooley

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Sorry this happened to you, but it sounds like you handled it perfectly!

Good job too on holding your ground. Sounds like your questions made them pick up their ball and go home. Guess they only wanted to play when they thought they could win.
 

HankT

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unrequited wrote:
Sgt. Mucci: "Come with us, and I'm going to have to see your concealed permit if you have one as well."

...
Sgt. Mucci: "What's your name?"

me:"I'm Chris, what's your name?"

no reply...

Sgt. Mucci: "What's your last name?"

me:"I don't see how that's relevant to our discussion. I'm Chris."



Sounds like you handled it very well, un.

Sgt. Mucci seems to have blatantly lied. I think a formal complaint is in order, for sure.

Did you ever give him your full name or show him your concealed permit as he asked for? I think it would have been OK to identify yourself by giving your full name. The permit was not necessary, of course, so that didn't need to come out. But the name would have been good in this situation, I think.

This case has an interesting aspect, besides the usual one of anOCer going about his business, law-abiding and legal 100%. And that is that a manager of a business will sometimes be faced with having to resolve some concerns/complaints from her customer(s) about a man with a gun in the business. There are only two general ways to handle that and calling the police to come over is one of them. Did the manager do something wrong? No, she was legitimatelyresponding to the needs of her customers. Did the complainants do something wrong? Probably not. They just saw a guy with a gun, were legitimately concerned,andwanted it checkedout. Were there children present at the store? Seems like children being present could be structural component to this kind of complaint/manager/police sequence. You can never stop (or criticize) someone for being concerned about the children.


Sgt. Mucci got caught in a big fat lie. It's a reminder of what apjonas means when he says "the LEO is not your friend." Sometimes the police will just LIEto you.
 

Doug Huffman

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vrwmiller wrote:
At any rate, who do you call when you have to call someone on the cops?
An old question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire_VI

Satire VI alone composes Book II of Juvenal's five books of satire. In addition, Satire VI contains the famous phrase, "Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" (but who will guard the guards themselves), which is variously translated as "But who guards the guards?", "But who watches the watchmen?", or similar. (This phrase has been used as an epigraph to numerous works, most notably Watchmen and the Tower Commission Report.[1]) In context, it refers to the impossibility of enforcing moral behavior when the enforcers (custodes) are corruptible: ... I am awareof whatever councils you old friends warn,i.e. "throw the bold and lock her in.” But who is going to guard theguards themselves, who now keep silent the lapses of the loosegirl - paid off in the same coin? The common crime keeps its silence.A prudent wife looks ahead and starts (her infidelities) with them. ... nouiconsilia et ueteres quaecumque monetis amici,'pone seram, cohibe'. sed quis custodiet ipsoscustodes, qui nunc lasciuae furta puellaehac mercede silent? crimen commune tacetur.prospicit hoc prudens et a illis incipit uxor.(6.O29-34)
 

Mike

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unrequited wrote:
Yup. I'll get the full skinny from Stephanie when I call her later this week. I didn't mention, but she was SOOOOOO nice and polite the entire way through, and apologized to me for the police thing saying she had to call because of a customer complaint. Please read her words as kind as you can read them.
No, she did not have to call, and you should report her to B&N management. Asking the police to check you out is rediculous. The police are only going to act as if they were asked to remove you - else if somthing happenned, they would he held responsible for not acting on management's request to remove you (that is how it will be re-charachterized later).
 

bohdi

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Perhaps filing a complaint about this particular manager is not the best answer. Perhaps asking her if she will act in the same way in the future is the right answer, give her a shot to tell you if she'll do it again, now knowing that your fully within your right to carry. Though they can always ask you to leave later on at anytime, and if you stay it would be tresspassing, but she doesn't seem like she'd do that.



Thought you handled it well Chris. Way to keep cool under pressure.
 

blk

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Memphrica, Tennessee, USA
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vrwmiller wrote:
Since a call for service was made to the PD, it'd probably be a good idea to formulate a FOIA request to get the initiating call recording and all other communications. Following examination of the response...file a complaint.
You may do well to get the dispatch and other police units communications both recorded and transcript for your case when you file the FOIA. Why did that many cars show up? Who called them to participate?
 

BB62

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unrequited wrote:
I asked, "Am I being arrested officer?"

Sgt. Mucci: "No, you'd be in cuffs by now."

I asked, "Am I being detained officer?"

Sgt. Mucci: "No, but if you don't come with us, there'll be something very bad."
.
If you felt like it, you could have said, "No thanks, since I'm not being arrested and I'm not being detained, I have no interest in following you, we can discuss things here. Now if you feel you have probable cause, and would like to explain what that is, I would be more than willing to follow your orders. Is there anything else I should know, because it is my intention to follow all lawful orders."
 

BB62

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unrequited wrote:
(After essentially admitting you were lied to by the responding officers) Officer Brown says "I'm done talking with you as well. I have nothing else to say."
Right then and there I would have insisted that he get his superior officer to come to the scene.
 

CPerdue

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Unrequited, good job.

Everyone, the manager needs to be dealt with carefully. She is the archetype for someone who could be educated and help in the future or complain to higher-ups and get B&N policy changed against us.

Ideally in a similar future event she will call the cops and have "guy-with-gun" checked out to allay fears of one customer (this is a must-do as part of her job) and then stand by to clarify to police that "Mr.-law-abiding" is not to be removed from her store. To help this along it would be good for her to know that gun owners are spending money.
Next time I am in B&N I am going to buy the damn overpriced coffee and carry the cup around. Maybe also a book or two from by the door (even if I intend to put them down when I leave) This makes my presence desirable to the store.

Next, it wouldn't hurt to reinforce that we patronize stores which respect our rights. OCDO has the gun friendly/un-friendly store lists aplenty. How about we log purchases and then send tallys to various corporate offices? Logistics for this need to be discussed (privacy, burden on board admins., etc.).

Finally, the store manager may never have considered how to deal with the situation until it happened. Let's think about some proactive training. Instead of just having 'non-incidents' at businesses, let's make it a point of saying to the cashier, or manager if we can find them, "Hey, thanks for the good service. By the way I appreciate you allowing me to carry my gun. It is up to you whether I can or not, and your attitude is part of why I spend money here." Basically let them know that if you are legal and the cops show up, they get the final word.

Bye now, time to go tell WalMart that I spent $87 there last night while OC, and I appreciate their policy.

C.
 

Tess

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Awesome job, Chris. If you could only get a snippet of audio, that was the perfect snipped to get (I couldn't see the video, but I didn't play with other formats, and I heard enough). "Ethical issues" that trump your "legal agenda" - particularly when she lied about having been asked to remove you.

I think we're going to that B&N today or tomorrow to pick up the new book, and others. Good to know this. If we have an encounter, and I hope we won't, we'll have to be very careful it doesn't come across as a "let's go there armed to see what happens" response. I don't want to be antagonistic, but I also don't want to have to change my behavior based on some officer's prejudices.
 

LEO 229

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unrequited wrote:


You did a FANTASTIC job!!!! You handled your self perfectly. I would not change a thing. It was smart of you to actually talk to the manager right away and be told she never instructed you to be removed.. Her request was only to determine that it was legal for you to carry.

I would encourage you to file a complaint for what the LEOs did since you were not required to leave and they embarrassed you in front of all the other customers. In fact.. as we talked about in the past.. they really had no business talking to you at all unless they felt you were a threat to the public.

I enjoyedreading how you gave your FIRST NAME only as a matter of courtesy. Smart not to go directly back to your car too. I hope they never got your tags. :p
 

LEO 229

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Citizen wrote:
.....snip

"....We conclude that the law of this Commonwealth, including
the common law of England incorporated into our Code by  1-10,
does not provide a basis for recognizing a common law right to
use force to resist an illegal detention. In the absence of
authority requiring such a right, we perceive no reason for
enlarging, by judicial decision, the scope of the common law on
this subject.
Under the common law, a citizen generally is permitted to
use reasonable force to resist an illegal arrest.
See Banner v.
Commonwealth, 204 Va. 640, 646-47, 133 S.E.2d 305, 309-10
(1963); Brown v. Commonwealth, 27 Va. App. 111, 116-17, 497
S.E.2d 527, 530 (1998). The underlying rationale supporting
this common law right is the "provocation" of an illegal arrest,
which operates to excuse an assault directed at thwarting the
unlawful arrest. See Rodgers v. State, 373 A.2d 944, 947 (Md.
1977); State v. Hobson, 577 N.W.2d 825, 830 (Wis. 1998). An
unlawful arrest was considered a great provocation at common law
because of the dire consequences, including incarceration of
extreme duration, which often resulted before an accused was
permitted a trial for the charged offense. See State v.
Valentine, 935 P.2d 1294, 1300-01 (Wash. 1997); see also State
v. Gardiner, 814 P.2d 568, 572 (Utah 1991); Hobson, 577 N.W.2d
at 835.

http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvtx/1012526.txt
You found it!!!! I knew I saw this before!!! Citizen... your the man!!
 

LEO 229

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BB62 wrote:
unrequited wrote:
(After essentially admitting you were lied to by the responding officers) Officer Brown says "I'm done talking with you as well. I have nothing else to say."
Right then and there I would have insisted that he get his superior officer to come to the scene.
The supervisorwill not come out for something like this... Needs to have a complaint of injury or something real bad. This is minor on the scale and a waste of their time.. Sorry.... :(
 

sjhipple

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Concord, New Hampshire, USA
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AbNo wrote:
Ok, short answer on this video....(yes, this is O/T, let's not comment anymore on this)

Kid was in Powell's library. Campus security notice he's acting up, ask him for ID. He refuses, gettting really smarmy and being a snot-nosed punk. They tell him to leave, he responds in a continually juvenile manner.

Campus security gets "real" cops, they tell him to leave or they will take him away. He's still being a smart-arse, and generally thinking it's a joke. They cuff him, and start taking him away, so he goes limp, drags his feet, and catches them on chair/table legs on the way out, trying to be cool.

The cops tell him if he doesn't cut it out, he's getting zapped. He tries to call their bluff.

They aren't bluffing.

So in the end, he ends up crying like a baby because he wanted to act tough.

Again, this is all O/T, so let's stick to Unrequited's post....

Sad. However, I'm not aware of any law outlawing being "smarmy." Seems excessive to me.
 

sjhipple

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Well, you've convinced me: I'm going to invest in a small voice recorder (that records for more than one minute). It's a real shame you didn't record that "something-bad-will-happen" threat.


You handled it well. Did you retrieve your gun and go back inside? I wasn't completely clear on that.
 

sjhipple

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BB62 wrote:
If you felt like it, you could have said, "No thanks, since I'm not being arrested and I'm not being detained, I have no interest in following you, we can discuss things here. Now if you feel you have probable cause, and would like to explain what that is, I would be more than willing to follow your orders. Is there anything else I should know, because it is my intention to follow all lawful orders."

Bingo

Another option would've been to say something like, "Officers, I intend to follow all lawful orders, but since I'm not being detained, I decline your invitation to join you outside. However, I'd like to talk to the manager to make sure I'm not violating store policy so you can join me if you'd like."
 

BB62

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LEO 229 wrote:
BB62 wrote:
unrequited wrote:
(After essentially admitting you were lied to by the responding officers) Officer Brown says "I'm done talking with you as well. I have nothing else to say."
Right then and there I would have insisted that he get his superior officer to come to the scene.
The supervisorwill not come out for something like this... Needs to have a complaint of injury or something real bad. This is minor on the scale and a waste of their time.. Sorry.... :(

It's not so cut and dried as you make it. Sorry.

The supervisor sure came out to my location whenI was stopped at gunpoint for OCing on the sidewalk near my home. No violence, complaint of injury or something real bad involved - except uninformed cops.

My suggestion stands.



UNREQUITED - one other suggestion: after talking to the manager, and getting the LEO's to agree that what you were doing was legal, you might have wanted to request to the manager that you go about your business as you were. Of course, not being there, I don't know whether that would have flown or not.
 

Virginiaplanter

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If the acts happened as stated, the officer is guility of Moral Turptitude and I think you can get him fired. Under Virginia law one act of moral turptitude is lying :

"The following exchange took place:
Q.Prior to this, have you ever been
convicted of any crimes involving
moral turpitude?

A.What does that mean? What does
"moral turpitude" mean?

Q.Have you ever been convicted of any
crime . . . like lying or cheating,
or stealing or sexually assaulting
anybody?"

Willis v. Commonwealth, Va. App (1997). There is no greater breach of trust of public office than an officer under the color of law lying to commit a violation of your rights. Common law malfeasance.

Under the color of law he unlawfully detained you using a known lie (the Manager told him to remove you) as a pretence. Your leaving as a result of the officer stating that if you didn't that "bad will happen" is an acquiessence to a show of authority, and therefore an unlawful seizure.

"Again, the Commonwealth misses the point. Whether weapons were drawn or not is irrelevant to the question whether such blocking would cause a reasonable person to believe he or she is not free to leave the encounter....The Supreme Court has provided examples of circumstances indicating the occurrence of a seizure. These examples include "the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled....Because Bolden suffered an illegal seizure, his consent to the search of his suitcase was tainted and ineffective to justify the search. Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 507-08 (1983)."Bolden v. Commonwealth,Va. App. (2002)


His statement can also be construed as a common law assault.

You might want to get an Affidavt from the Manager as to the events and demand his removal from his job and any and all other legal avenues.

Good job!
 
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