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Know thine enemy...

expvideo

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Sheldon wrote:
possumboy wrote:
expvideo wrote:
genocide against the palestinians and unjustified bombings of the Lebanese.
Please provide cites.
You forgot and story links.... But seriously the only stories I have read in the paper, or seen on the tube are ones about retaliatory or preemptive strikes against military targets. Granted collateral damage is important to the U.S. it is only somewhat so with the Israelis. If they find someone or something they want badly and they (it) are hiding (hid) in a saymosque they (Israel) will attack with full prejudice, and any one or thing that is there with the target is considered a collaborator and fair game just like we did in WWII.

The point is that to the Israelis, all palestinians are military targets. They claim that they are retaliating or preemptively striking, but they aren't doing it against military targets. They retaliate against the civilians and preemptively strike with little discretion for whether anyone is actually involved in any resistance. They treat the Palestinians horribly. It seems that they use "retaliation" or "preemptive strikes" as excuses to commit acts of violence against the palestinians. Not to mention that the military stands by while the Israeli civilians beat and threaten the palestinians, but if the palestinians stand up to them, the military "puts down the uprising" so to speak.
 

possumboy

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dkd wrote:
possumboy wrote:
expvideo wrote:
genocide against the palestinians and unjustified bombings of the Lebanese.
Please provide cites.


ill assist, you can start here and then google

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/


edit- i see expvideo already posted

So this has nothing to do with the attacks on Isreal and defense of their families?

When they are being attacked and the attackers are placing themselves in area where other "innocent" are located.

So, Isreal should just let all attacks against them go because they might hurt some children? Children who are being put in the path of dangers by people attacking Isreal.

How are all cease fires broken? I never realized it was Isreal that was firing across the border, or sending people across the border to blowup random targets.

So, Isreal's attacks on people attacking Isreal, no matter how they surround themselves, is unjustified?

So, I should not even carry in public because I may hit someone else while defending my family from an attacker. Because killing someone to prevent my family from being attacked would be seen has unjustified and a path to genocide if they were a different race than me.

I get it now.
 

swillden

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possumboy wrote:
So, Israel's attacks on people attacking Israel, no matter how they surround themselves, is unjustified?
Israel has a right to defend itself, and some of what goes on is that. Palestines also have a right to defend themselves, and some of what goes on is that. Much of what goes on, however, is acting out of aggression on both sides.

I spend some time in Israel a few years ago, and had a chance to talk to a number of Israelis, from many walks of life. What struck me was the depth of their fear and hatred, even in otherwise very calm, stable people. What I realized is that if the fear and hatred is reciprocated -- and I'm sure it is, although I didn't talk to any Arabs -- then this will never end. Neither side can ever believe the other will stop, and both sides instantly assume the worst about the other in any confrontation or conflict.

Israel's fear and hatred have been learned over the course of centuries. Jews were an embattled minority virtually everywhere they lived, even before the holocaust, and getting their own nation didn't change things much, particularly the way that the establishment of Israel went down. The British screwed it up pretty badly, increasing tensions on both sides so much that the Palestinians refused a reasonable accomodation when it was proposed.

Ongoing tensions have deepened the fear, hatred and mistrust on both sides to the point where the conflict is basically racial, the political basis irrelevant, and there is no such thing as a civilian. Both sides occasionally commit atrocities, and both sides are immediately ready to call almost any action by the other side an atrocity.

The Palestinians tend to commit more atrocities, but I don't think that's because they're any dirtier than the Israelis at this point, it's because they're weaker than Israel, and strike with the methods available to them. I'm not justifying their suicide bombings, just pointing out that I think that were the relative positions of power reversed, Israel would be committing terrorist attacks (though maybe not suicide bombers, the Jewish faith doesn't lend itself to those as readily as Muslim or Christian beliefs).

The bottom line, as I see it, is that both sides are equally wrong. One of them may be slightly more wrong than the other at a given point in time, but the score will be evened, and reversed. This is a situation of bone-deep hatred between two groups of people. The disputes over land, specific actions by one side or the other, civilians killed, etc., are all just posturing and positioning for the world's benefit.
 

Sheldon

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swillden wrote:
The bottom line, as I see it, is that both sides are equally wrong. One of them may be slightly more wrong than the other at a given point in time, but the score will be evened, and reversed. This is a situation of bone-deep hatred between two groups of people. The disputes over land, specific actions by one side or the other, civilians killed, etc., are all just posturing and positioning for the world's benefit.
The hatred is a lot More wide spread than just two groups, Sunni N Shiite hate each others guts to the same extent that the Palestine's hate the Israelis,the real problem is the hate mongering radical extremist that want any one not of theirMuslim sect dead, and the Jews just happen to be on that list, if there were a big block to Christan's over there you could bet your last dollar that they would be in the middle of it too.
 

imperialism2024

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Hmm, a religious group wanting to take over the world and use violence, intimidation, and fear to make everyone else follow their religious ideals... sounds like neo-con Republicans to me.

Except the Republicans are making better progress.

*ducks*

:uhoh:
 

sjhipple

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deepdiver wrote:
History has clearly shown that when any nation or people express an intent to control the world (or at least a significant portion of it) and to commit genocide, we ignore such a threat at our own risk.

Does that include such threats from our own government or does your moral relativism view our actions as justified when they can be justified for no one else?

We started this, after all. If any nation did to America what the CIA did to Iran and Iraq in the 1970's (completely unprovoked), I'd be singing death to that country too.
 

marine dad

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well, since there seems to have been a little bit of anti-semetic rhetoric spewed out here, let me put in my two cents worth. lets take a look at just what the "CHRISTIANS" have done to jews over the past 2000 years. here are a few examples ) all dates are "a.d":

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Chrstians and Jews.
• 315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Chrstians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.
• 325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: "For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people..."
• 337: Chrstian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Chrstian punishable by death.
• 339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense.
• 367 - 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who G-d has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.
• 379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Chrstianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.
• 380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as "an act pleasing to G-d."
• 415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.
• 415: St. Augustine wrote "The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the L-rd for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jsus."
• 418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: "If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil's refuge, Satan's fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves."
• 489 - 519: Chrstian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.
• 528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Chrstians in court.
• 535: The "Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Chrstians."
• 538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Prohibited marriages between Chrstians and Jews. Prohibited Chrstians from converting to Judaism.
• 561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.
• 612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.
• 613: Very serious persecution begain in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Chrstianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Chrstian education
• 694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that G-d punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their responsibility for the execution of Jsus.
• 722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.
• 855: Jews were exiled from Italy
• 1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Chrstians from living in the homes of Jews.
• 1078: "Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Chrstians."
• 1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes
• 1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: "Chrst-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.
• 1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.
• 1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)
• 1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.
• 1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.
• 1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: "Jews should be slaves to Chrstians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations." Canon 26 stated that "the testimony of Chrstians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Chrstians." (4)
• 1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.
• 1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.
• 1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that "the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the L-rd...As slaves rejected by G-d, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Chrst's death set free..."
• 1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that "Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress." They also had to wear a badge in the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished from Chrstians. This practice later spread to other countries.
• 1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the 1930's by Hitler, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.
• 1229: The Spanish inquisition starts. Later, in 1252, Pope Innocent IV authorizes the use of torture by the Inquisitors.
• 1261: Duke Henry III of Brabant, Belgium, stated in his will that "Jews...must be expelled from Brabant and totally annihilated so that not a single one remains, except those who are willing to trade, like all other tradesmen, without money-lending and usury."
• 1267: The Synod of Vienna ordered Jews to wear horned hats. Thomas Aquinas said that Jews should live in perpetual servitude.
• 1290: Jews are exiled from England. About 16,000 left the country.
• 1298: Jews were persecuted in Austria, Bavaria and Franconia. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed; more than 100,000 Jews were killed over a 6 month period.
• 1306: 100,000 Jews are exiled from France. They left with only the clothes on their backs, and food for only one day.
• 1320: 40,000 French shepherds went to Palestine on the Shepherd Crusade. On the way, 140 Jewish communities were destroyed.
• 1321: In Guienne, France, Jews were accused of having incited criminals to poison wells. 5,000 Jews were burned alive, at the stake.
• 1347 +: Ships from the Far East carried rats into Mediterranean ports. The rats carried the Black Death. At first, fleas spread the disease from the rats to humans. As the plague worsened, the germs spread from human to human. In five years, the death toll had reached 25 million. England took 2 centuries for its population levels to recover from the plague. People looked around for someone to blame. They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Chrstians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Chrstians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews. "In Bavaria...12,000 Jews...perished; in the small town of Erfurt...3,000; Rue Brulée...2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned." In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed...; in Worms 400..."
• 1354: 12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.
• 1374: An epidemic of possession broke out in the lower Rhine region of what is now Germany. People were seen "dancing, jumping and [engaging in] wild raving." This was triggered by enthusiastic revels on St. John's Day - an Chrstianized version of an ancient Pagan seasonal day of celebration which was still observed by the populace. The epidemic spread throughout the Rhine and in much of the Netherlands and Germany. Crowds of 500 or more dancers would be overcome together. Exorcisms were tried, but failed. Pilgrimages to the shrine of St. Vitus were tried, but this only seemed to exacerbate the problem. Finally, the rumor spread that G-d was angry because Chrstians had been excessively tolerant towards the Jews. G-d had cursed Europe as He did Saul when he showed mercy towards G-d's enemies in the Old Testament. Jews "were plundered, tortured and murdered by tens of thousands." The epidemic finally burned itself out two centuries later, in the late 16th century.
• 1391 : Jewish persecutions begin in Seville and in 70 other Jewish communities throughout Spain.
• 1394 : Jews were exiled, for the second time, from France.
• 1431 +: The Council of Basel "forbade Jews to go to universities, prohibited them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Chrstians, and required that they attend church sermons."
• 1453 : The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to terminate all Jewish civil rights.
• 1478: Spanish Jews had been heavily persecuted from the 14th century. Many had converted to Chrstianity. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions. Laws were passed that prohibited the descendants of Jews or Muslims from attending university, joining religious orders, holding public office, or entering any of a long list of professions.
• 1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Chrstians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims. Others converted to Chrstianity but often continued to practice Judaism in secret.
• 1492 (Jan) 100,00 Jews expelled and 3000 killed in Sicily (a Spanish province since 1411). 1400 years of Jewish history disappears almost overnight.
• 1497: Jews were banished from Portugal. 20,000 left the country rather than be baptized as Chrstians.
• 1516: The Governor of the Republic of Venice decided that Jews would be permitted to live only in one area of the city. It was located in the South Girolamo parish and was called the "Ghetto Novo." This was the first ghetto in Europe. Hitler made use of the concept in the 1930's.
• 1517: The Venice Ghetto was established.
• 1523: Martin Luther distributed his essay "That Jsus Was Born a Jew. " He hoped that large numbers of Jews would convert to Chrstianity. They didn't, and he began to write and preach hatred against them. Luther has been condemned in recent years for being extremely antisemitic. The charge has some merit; however he was probably typical of most Chrstians during his era.
• 1540 : Jews were exiled from Naples.
• 1543 : Martin Luther, distressed by the reluctance of Jews to convert to Chrstianity wrote "On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras" :
"What then shall we Chrstians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?
o First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,...
o Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed... They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
o Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
o Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...
o Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews...
o Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping...
o Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam's children...
To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews."
• 1550: Jews were exiled from Genoa and Venice.
• 1555-JUL-12: A Roman Catholic Papal bull, "Cum nimis absurdum," required Jews to wear badges, and live in ghettos. They were not allowed to own property outside the ghetto. Living conditions were dreadful: over 3,000 people were forced to live in about 8 acres of land. Women had to wear a yellow veil or scarf; men had to wear a piece of yellow cloth on their hat.
• 1582: Jews were expelled from Holland
• 1744, Frederick II of Prussia limited Breslau to only ten so-called "protected" Jewish families and encouraged similar practice in other Prussian cities.
• 1750 he issued Revidiertes General Privilegium und Reglement vor die Judenschaft: the "protected" Jews had an alternative to "either abstain from marriage or leave Berlin" (quoting Simon Dubnow). In the same year, Archduchess of Austria Maria Theresa ordered Jews out of Bohemia but soon reversed her position, on condition that Jews pay for readmission every ten years. This extortion was known as malke-geld (queen's money).
• 1752 she introduced the law limiting each Jewish family to one son.
• 1782, Joseph II abolished most of persecution practices in his Toleranzpatent, on the condition that Yiddish and Hebrew are eliminated from public records and judicial autonomy is annulled. Moses Mendelssohn wrote that "Such a tolerance... is even more dangerous play in tolerance than open persecution".
• 1806: A French Jesuit Priest, Abbe Barruel, had written a treatise blaming the Masonic Order for the French Revolution. He later issued a letter alleging that Jews, not the Masons were the guilty party. This triggered a belief in an international Jewish conspiracy in Germany, Poland and some other European countries later in the 19th century.
• 1846 - 1878: Pope Pius IX restored all of the previous restrictions against the Jews within the Vatican state. All Jews under Papal control were confined to Rome's ghetto - the last one in Europe until the Nazi era. On 2000-SEP-3, Pope John Paul II beautified Pius IX; this is the last step before sainthood. He explained: "Beatifying a son of the church does not celebrate particular historic choices that he has made, but rather points him out for imitation and for veneration for his virtue."
• 1858: Edgardo Mortara was kidnapped, at the age of six, from his Jewish family by Roman Catholic officials after they found out that a maid had secretly baptized him. He was not returned to his family but was raised a Catholic. He eventually became a priest.
• 1873: The term "antisemitism" is first used in a pamphlet by Wilhelm Marr called "Jewry's Victory over Teutonism."
• 1881: Alexander II of Russia was assassinated by radicals. The Jews were blamed. About 200 individual pogroms against the Jews followed. ("Pogrom" is a Russian word meaning "devastation" or "riot." In Russia, a pogrom was typically a mob riot against Jewish individuals, shops, homes or businesses. They were often supported and even organized by the government.) Thousands of Jews became homeless and impoverished. The few who were charged with offenses generally received very light sentences.
• 1893: "...anti-Semitic parties won sixteen seats in the German Reichstag."
• 1894: Captain Alfred Dreyfus, an officer on the French general staff, was convicted of treason. The evidence against him consisted of a piece of paper from his wastebasket with another person's handwriting, and papers forged by antisemitic officers. He received a life sentence on Devil's Island, off the coast of South America. The French government was aware that a Major Esterhazy was actually guilty. (The church, government and army united to suppress the truth. Writer Emile Zola and politician Jean Jaurès fought for justice and human rights. After 10 years, the French government fell and Drefus was declared totally innocent. The Dreyfus Affair was world-wide news for years. It motivated Journalist Theodor Herzl to write a book in 1896: "The Jewish State: A Modern Solution to the Jewish Question." The book led to the founding of the Zionist movement which fought for a Jewish Homeland. A half century later, the state of Israel was born.
• 1903: At Easter, government agents organized an anti-Jewish pogrom in Kishinev, Moldova, Russia. The local newspaper published a series of inflammatory articles. A Chrstian child was discovered murdered and a young Chrstian woman at the Jewish Hospital committed suicide. Jews were blamed for the deaths. Violence ensured. The 5,000 soldiers in the town did nothing. When the smoke cleared, 49 Jews had been killed, 500 were injured; 700 homes looted and destroyed, 600 businesses and shops looted, 2000 families left homeless. Later, it was discovered that the child had been murdered by its relatives and the suicide was unrelated to the Jews.
• 1905: The Okhrana, the Russian secret police in the reign of Czar Nicholas II, converted an earlier antisemitic novel into a document called the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." It was published privately in 1897. A Russian Orthodox priest, Sergius Nilus, published them publicly in 1905. It is promoted as the record of "secret rabbinical conferences whose aim was to subjugate and exterminate the Chrstians." The Protocols were used by the Okhrana in a propaganda campaign that was associated with massacres of the Jews. These were the Czarist Pogroms of 1905.
• 1915: 600,000 Jews were forcibly moved from the western borders of Russia towards the interior. About 100,000 died of exposure or starvation.
• 1917: "In the civil war following the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, the reactionary White Armies made extensive use of the Protocols to incite widespread slaughters of Jews." 200,000 Jews were murdered in the Ukraine.
• 1920: The Protocols reach England and the United States. They are exposed as a forgery, but are widely circulated. Henry Ford sponsored a study of international activities of Jews. This led to a series of antisemitic articles in the Dearborn Independent, which were published in a book, "The International Jew."
• 1920: The defeat of Germany in World War I and the continuing economic difficulties were blamed in that country on the "Jewish influence." One antisemitic poster has been preserved from that era. It shows a German, presumably Chrstian woman, a male Jew with distorted facial features, a coffin and the word "Deutschland" (Germany)
• 1920's, 1930's: Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "Today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the L-rd." The Protocols are used by the Nazis to whip up public hatred of the Jews in the 1930's. Widespread pogroms occur in Greece, Hungary, Mexico, Poland, Rumania, and the USSR. Radio programs by many conservative American clergy, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, frequently attacked Jews. Reverend Fr. Charles E Coughlin was one of the best known. "In the 1930's, radio audiences heard him rail against the threat of Jews to America's economy and defend Hitler's treatment of Jews as justified in the fight against communism." Other conservative Chrstian leaders, such as Frank Norris and John Straton supported the Jews.
Discrimination against Jews in North America is widespread. Many universities set limits on the maximum number of Jewish students that they would accept. Harvard accepted all students on the basis of merit until after World War I when the percentage of Jewish students approached 15%. At that time they installed an informal quota system. In 1941, Princeton had fewer than 2% Jews in their student body. Jews were routinely barred from country clubs, prestigious neighborhoods, etc.
• 1933: Hitler took power in Germany. Jews "were barred from civil service, legal professions and universities, were not allowed to teach in schools and could not be editors of newspapers." (3) Two years later, Jews were no longer considered citizens.
• 1934: Various laws were enacted in Germany to force Jews out of schools and professions.
• 1935: The Nazis passed the Nuremberg Laws restricting citizenship to those of "German or related blood." Jews became stateless.
• 1936: Cardinal Hloud of Poland urged Catholics to boycott Jewish businesses.
• 1938: On NOV-9, the Nazi government in Germany sent storm troopers, the SS and the Hitler Youth on a pogrom that killed 91 Jews, injured hundreds, burned 177 synagogues and looted 7,500 Jewish stores. Broken glass could be seen everywhere; the glass gave this event its name of Kristallnacht, the Night of Broken Glass.
• 1938: Hitler brought back century-old church law, ordering all Jews to wear a yellow Star of David as identification. A few hundred thousand Jews are allowed to leave Germany after they give all of their assets to the government.
• 1939: The Holocaust, the systematic extermination of Jews in Germany begins. The process only ended in 1945 with the conclusion of World War II. Approximately 6 million Jews (1.5 million of them children), 400 thousand Roma (Gypsies) and others were slaughtered. Some were killed by death squads; others were slowly killed in trucks with carbon monoxide; others were gassed in large groups in Auschwitz, Dacau, Sobibor, Treblinka and other extermination camps. Officially, the holocaust was described by the Nazis as subjecting Jews "to special treatment" or as a "solution of the Jewish question." Gold taken from the teeth of the victims was recycled; hair was used in the manufacture of mattresses. In the Buchenwald extermination camp, lampshades were made out of human skin; however, this appears to be an isolated incident. A rumor spread that Jewish corpses were routinely converted into soap. However, the story appears to be false.
• 1940: The Vichy government of France collaborated with Nazi Germany by freezing about 80,000 Jewish bank accounts. During the next four years, they deported about 76,000 Jews to Nazi death camps; only about 2,500 survived. It was only in 1995 that a French president, Jacques Chirac, "was able to admit that the state bore a heavy share of responsibility in the mass round-ups and deportations of Jews, as well as in the property and asset seizures that were carried out with the active help of the Vichy regime."
• 1941: The Holocaust Museum in Washington DC estimates that 13,000 Jews died on 1941-JUN-19 during a pogrom in Bucharest, Romania. It was ordered by the pro-Nazi Romanian regime of Marshal Ion Antonescu. The current government has admitted that this atrocity happened, but most Romanians continue to deny that the Jews were killed on orders from their government.
• 1942: From JUL-28 to 31, almost 18,000 inhabitants of the Minsk ghetto in what is now Belarus were exterminated. This was in addition to 5,000 to 15,000 who had been massacred in earlier pogroms in that city. This was just one of many such pogroms during World War II.
• 1946: Even though World War II ended the year before, antisemitic pogroms continued, particularly in Poland.


wow, and this list is nowhere near complete, just some things i've came up with over the past few years. so if supposed "christians" did all this to us, please forgive us if we choose to no longer bow our heads humbly before those who's stated desire is to annihilate us from the face of the earth.
 

imperialism2024

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marine dad wrote:
well, since there seems to have been a little bit of anti-semetic rhetoric spewed out here, let me put in my two cents worth. lets take a look at just what the "CHRISTIANS" have done to jews over the past 2000 years. here are a few examples ) all dates are "a.d":

wow, and this list is nowhere near complete, just some things i've came up with over the past few years. so if supposed "christians" did all this to us, please forgive us if we choose to no longer bow our heads humbly before those who's stated desire is to annihilate us from the face of the earth.

Well, you won't get that from me. I'm an equal-opportunity hater of all theistic religions! But that's a discussion for another day...
 

deepdiver

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ama-gi wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
History has clearly shown that when any nation or people express an intent to control the world (or at least a significant portion of it) and to commit genocide, we ignore such a threat at our own risk.

Does that include such threats from our own government or does your moral relativism view our actions as justified when they can be justified for no one else?

We started this, after all. If any nation did to America what the CIA did to Iran and Iraq in the 1970's (completely unprovoked), I'd be singing death to that country too.
ama-gi, I'm surprised at that response as I give you much more credit than that for intelligent discourse. I never excused behavior of the US or used moral relativism in my comments and for you to so imply is disingenuous. I was talking about a theocractic view that is widespread among certain peoples on all continents. But if it makes you feel better to ignore nearly 2000 years of history, behavior, theology and politics and think that this all started 30-40 years ago due to US policy, when it would be impossible to implicate the west in this without going back to at least 1918 in which case the British and French would actually be the culprits, I'm sure the ostriches and liberal revisionist academics will welcome you to their ranks. *shakes head and walks away*
 

swillden

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Sheldon wrote:
the real problem is the hate mongering radical extremist that want any one not of theirMuslim sect dead
Religion has nothing to do with it.

Really. It doesn't.

It's just a classification. The problems in Northern Ireland weren't really about protestantism vs catholicism, the fights between Sunni and Shiite in Iraq have nothing to do with tiny doctrinal variations, the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition had nothing to do with dogma and heresy, etc., etc.

Religious differences fall nicely along cultural difference lines, because religion tends to follow culture, and all of these battles are cultural and political issues. Political in the broadest sense of a battle between parties who self-identify for some reason.

Religion is a convenient hook to hang the rhetoric on, because it's powerful, and it's a useful tool for manipulating populaces for the same reason. That doesn't mean religion is bad. Any force can be manipulated into doing damage, and the more powerful the force, the more damage it can do. Hitler largely ignored religion, he grabbed nationalism, aka patriotism, as his tool of choice. As a result of that, many people in the last 60 years have decried the evils of patriotism. The reality is that whatever the group of people, as long as they self-identify deeply with the group, there will be some core thread of common belief that can be used to manipulate them.

It might seem that religions that preach an afterlife are particularly useful if you're trying to convince people to risk their lives, but even purely atheistic groups can be manipulated just as effectively through an appeal to the good of the group, or the legacy of the individual. Men who have no belief in an afterlife can still be convinced to give their lives if it means they'll be remembered with honor, and their sacrifice will serve some higher purpose. Note that the higher purpose doesn't even have to be real.

Arguably, Christianity should be darned near impossible to turn to evil purposes, given the core message of love of all men. History has showed ample proof that Christianity can do great evil. It follows that if it's not reasonable to attribute the violence of Christians to Christianity, or patriots to patriotism, then it's not reasonable to attribute the violence of Muslims to Islam.
 

DreQo

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nitrovic wrote:
ama-gi wrote:
My government has way more force and violence against me over my lifetime than all the Muslims of the world combined. The government is "thine enemy."
Really? If you steal from a store the government cuts your arm off? If your a woman and your accused of cheating you get stoned to death? If you hate your government so much why do you live here?
I bet they dont have many thieves as we do!
 

marine dad

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"Uhh, ok. Most of that was from over a hundred years ago. And a lot was from that idiot Hitler himself. That had nothing to do with religion, that was a race war and a psycho path heading it."



you obviously missed my point, so let it go.
 

sjhipple

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deepdiver wrote:
ama-gi wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
History has clearly shown that when any nation or people express an intent to control the world (or at least a significant portion of it) and to commit genocide, we ignore such a threat at our own risk.

Does that include such threats from our own government or does your moral relativism view our actions as justified when they can be justified for no one else?

We started this, after all. If any nation did to America what the CIA did to Iran and Iraq in the 1970's (completely unprovoked), I'd be singing death to that country too.
ama-gi, I'm surprised at that response as I give you much more credit than that for intelligent discourse. I never excused behavior of the US or used moral relativism in my comments and for you to so imply is disingenuous. I was talking about a theocractic view that is widespread among certain peoples on all continents. But if it makes you feel better to ignore nearly 2000 years of history, behavior, theology and politics and think that this all started 30-40 years ago due to US policy, when it would be impossible to implicate the west in this without going back to at least 1918 in which case the British and French would actually be the culprits, I'm sure the ostriches and liberal revisionist academics will welcome you to their ranks. *shakes head and walks away*


I agree with you about the theocratic view of expansionist Islam. The problem is, if any country had done to the USA what the CIA has done to Iraq and Iran even before I was born, I'd be saying death to that country as well. And to imply that they hate us because we're not Muslim ignores a huge part of the equation.

However, our current war..."on terror":quirky...absolutely *IS* a direct result ofthe government'spolicy 40 years ago and up to the present day. We have started wars, funded insurrections and armed mass murderers and we're paying a bigger price than we expected to pay.

And don't forget,theUS governmentdid these things to "our friends" at the time. Iraq and Iran were both considered "key allies." What both countries didn't know is that our CIA was giving weapons to both sides and helping them kill one another. After they found out about it, neither country liked us much. Also, we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran and instituted a cruel puppet dictator only to see him replaced by a very anti-Ameircan government in a popular backlash soon after.The USgovernmentalso gave a bunch of chemical and biological weapons to Saddam to use to kill Iranians...and then got pissed off when he used them to kill non-Iranians.

The governmentstarted these fights because, as you say,they wanted to "control the world."
 

sjhipple

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nitrovic wrote:
ama-gi wrote:
My government has way more force and violence against me over my lifetime than all the Muslims of the world combined. The government is "thine enemy."
Really? If you steal from a store the government cuts your arm off? If your a woman and your accused of cheating you get stoned to death?

Non-sequitur, red herring

If you hate your government so much why do you live here?
Because I'm a patriot and, like my Founding Fathers, will fight tyranny rather than run away from it. I love my country, but fear the government...the government is ruining the country I love.
 
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