LEO gave me a ticket...

[sudden valley gunner]

Big Dave kind of alluded to what I'm curious about. The weather, time, place, circumstances regarding the prior robbery are factors but we, most of whom I suspect are not LE, lawyers or judges, all seem to agree are insufficient in themselves. I'm nobody special and I just have a hard time thinking all the cops, lawyers, judges and jury members, who do have the details, could all be dumber than me.

Some are dumber than you, and the others have an agenda.

 

[irfner]

Wasn't the weather, time and place/circumstances the argument used to confiscate personal firearms in New Orleans? How'd that turn out? Not breaking the law is not breaking the law. It doesn't matter the time of day or if it is snowing or not. Perhaps we shouldn't open carry in Spokane because there was some crime committed recently. Or Tukwila or Vancouver. Oh wait late at night in a dark parking lot, thats when I want my gun and I want it available not hidden.
irfner

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Wasn't the weather, time and place/circumstances the argument used to confiscate personal firearms in New Orleans? How'd that turn out? Not breaking the law is not breaking the law. It doesn't matter the time of day or if it is snowing or not. Perhaps we shouldn't open carry in Spokane because there was some crime committed recently. Or Tukwila or Vancouver. Oh wait late at night in a dark parking lot, thats when I want my gun and I want it available not hidden.
irfner

We are not in New Orleans....... I gotta go to the airport open carry of course, but will post more on what I found on this subject later. There has to be more than time and place.

 

[ak56]

We are not in New Orleans....... I gotta go to the airport open carry of course, but will post more on what I found on this subject later. There has to be more than time and place.

I'm in a coffee shop right now and there are police here. Let's see, morning... coffee shop... police..., that should cover time, place, circumstances - seems to me to sound familiar, so that should warrant alarm, right?
[/Sarcasm off]

I'm in this Starbucks nearly every weekday morning, and often there are multiple police agencies represented in the clientel (WSP, King County Sheriff, Issaquah PD) and I have never had a problem.

 

[joeroket]

I'm in a coffee shop right now and there are police here. Let's see, morning... coffee shop... police..., that should cover time, place, circumstances - seems to me to sound familiar, so that should warrant alarm, right?
[/Sarcasm off]

I'm in this Starbucks nearly every weekday morning, and often there are multiple police agencies represented in the clientel (WSP, King County Sheriff, Issaquah PD) and I have never had a problem.

Nope. Clemmons was not OC'ing. Your manner of carrying is different than his.

Or it could be that the three agencies you see know their place and are professional.

 

[amlevin]

As this thread, and others with similar encounters being described, progress it appears that there are two distinct groups of people involved. Those who OC and are not subjected to any encounter with LEO's while doing so and those who OC regularly and from their descriptions, contacted frequently by LEO's.

I't gives one pause and begs the question "what are the outward characteristics of these apparently diverse groups?"

What is the manner of dress?

What's the manner of carry?

How much other "gear" is the person carrying that might bring attention to them?

What are the surrounding circumstances?

What's the demeanor of the person both before, during, and after the "encounter"?

What seems to single out some while others are apparently invisible to the LEO's present?

I know, I know, it's not supposed to make any difference, yada, yada, yada, but it's just possible that it does and I seriously doubt that anything will change in that regard soon (or possibly ever).

Just wondering why some apparently have more problems than others and why some who swear they were just standing around minding their own business seem to have big problems. Is it ALL on the police or do some contribute to the issue? I'd be interested in knowing.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Let's not forget sometimes police will target those they feel they can bully.

I don't think dress has a lot too do with it. When I have been hassled it has been in broad daylight dressed in various manners, the gun pointed at my head incident I was wearing , khaki pants, black dress shoes, had my hair cut, and was clean shaven, and wearing a nicer tan shirt.

 

[therealcombat]

Let's not forget sometimes police will target those they feel they can bully.

I don't think dress has a lot too do with it. When I have been hassled it has been in broad daylight dressed in various manners, the gun pointed at my head incident I was wearing , khaki pants, black dress shoes, had my hair cut, and was clean shaven, and wearing a nicer tan shirt.

Please elaborate on this incident

 

[joeroket]

Please elaborate on this incident

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?83418-Details-on-my-ordeal-in-Bellingham

 

[therealcombat]

Holy ****! That's nuts! I really need to get a good digital recorder.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Wasn't the weather, time and place/circumstances the argument used to confiscate personal firearms in New Orleans? How'd that turn out? Not breaking the law is not breaking the law. It doesn't matter the time of day or if it is snowing or not. Perhaps we shouldn't open carry in Spokane because there was some crime committed recently. Or Tukwila or Vancouver. Oh wait late at night in a dark parking lot, thats when I want my gun and I want it available not hidden.
irfner

We are not in New Orleans....... I gotta go to the airport open carry of course, but will post more on what I found on this subject later. There has to be more than time and place.

From Kitsap County's Prosecuting office...I found this in a search from a clue Lammo gave me, searching State v. Duncan. This is dealing mostly with a traffic Terry Stop but the principles would still apply,

Terry Stop and Search Checklist

To STOP – You must have reasonable suspicion that a suspect is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime. Reasonable suspicion must be based on specific, articulable, rational facts (less than probable cause but more than a hunch). Articulable factors justifying a Terry stop (need multiple factors, at least one of which must come from the second column) include…


 hour
 high crime neighborhood
 appears lost or to not be a resident of the area
 unusual presence
 standing on street corner
 nervousness
 flight-manner of movement
 drug trafficking neighborhood
 other
 hand to hand movement

(second column, wouldn't let me paste it like it appears in word)

 eyewitness information
 concerned citizen
 CI information
 co-suspect information
 personal knowledge of suspect’s drug use
 personal knowledge of suspect’s license suspension status
 smell
 suspect statement

I like this footnote on the bottom of the page



To QUESTION – You may demand the suspect’s name and address and an explanation of the suspect’s actions. You may detain him for a reasonable period of time to verify his answer. If he says nothing or tells you to jump in a lake, that’s your tough luck. You cannot do anything to the suspect.

BOTTOM LINE – You must be able to articulate reasons to distinguish the suspect from someone who just may happen to be there.

 

[amlevin]

From Kitsap County's Prosecuting office...I found this in a search from a clue Lammo gave me, searching State v. Duncan. This is dealing mostly with a traffic Terry Stop but the principles would still apply,

Terry Stop and Search Checklist

To STOP – You must have reasonable suspicion that a suspect is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime. Reasonable suspicion must be based on specific, articulable, rational facts (less than probable cause but more than a hunch). Articulable factors justifying a Terry stop (need multiple factors, at least one of which must come from the second column) include…


 hour
 high crime neighborhood
 appears lost or to not be a resident of the area
 unusual presence
 standing on street corner
 nervousness
 flight-manner of movement
 drug trafficking neighborhood
 other
 hand to hand movement

(second column, wouldn't let me paste it like it appears in word)

 eyewitness information
 concerned citizen
 CI information
 co-suspect information
 personal knowledge of suspect’s drug use
 personal knowledge of suspect’s license suspension status
 smell
 suspect statement

I like this footnote on the bottom of the page



To QUESTION – You may demand the suspect’s name and address and an explanation of the suspect’s actions. You may detain him for a reasonable period of time to verify his answer. If he says nothing or tells you to jump in a lake, that’s your tough luck. You cannot do anything to the suspect.

BOTTOM LINE – You must be able to articulate reasons to distinguish the suspect from someone who just may happen to be there.

This is as they say "One Man's Opinion", in this case the Kitsap County Prosecutor's. It probably only holds weight in Kitsap County. What we need is for The State AG to put out the same information wiith his Signature on it so it would be useful statewide.

Yes, I too like the "footnote".

 

[sudden valley gunner]

This is as they say "One Man's Opinion", in this case the Kitsap County Prosecutor's. It probably only holds weight in Kitsap County. What we need is for The State AG to put out the same information wiith his Signature on it so it would be useful statewide.

Yes, I too like the "footnote".

Yes, but this man an attorney formed his opinion from State and constitutional law, If you read the whole document, (mostly dealing with traffic stops), he uses court case after court case to support his opinion both Federal and State Supreme court cases.

I downloaded the whole document but don't know how to share it it is quite lengthy and a good read. I would recommend reading it.

 

[amlevin]

Yes, but this man an attorney formed his opinion from State and constitutional law, If you read the whole document, (mostly dealing with traffic stops), he uses court case after court case to support his opinion both Federal and State Supreme court cases.

I downloaded the whole document but don't know how to share it it is quite lengthy and a good read. I would recommend reading it.

Just post the URL for the document.

I agree that the "checklist" is good stuff but again, it would be nice of this was something that, in this form, held weight Statewide. While he gathered the items from state and constitutional law, remember, we will all be dealing with less than scholarly people. Simple is what is needed and a similar checklist from the AG would be great. Even better, if this list was distributed to ALL PD's in the State to be carried by officers like a "Miranda Card".

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Just post the URL for the document.

I agree that the "checklist" is good stuff but again, it would be nice of this was something that, in this form, held weight Statewide. While he gathered the items from state and constitutional law, remember, we will all be dealing with less than scholarly people. Simple is what is needed and a similar checklist from the AG would be great. Even better, if this list was distributed to ALL PD's in the State to be carried by officers like a "Miranda Card".

The funny thing is there was no url, in the search engine it went straight to the word document when you clicked it, let me try again.

I agree it would be good to be state wide but to me a layman it really helps show how the law is interpreted by at least one prosecutors office.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Found someone else who posted on the web.

http://www.infolizer.com/b2r5e1ati8t5esta19nspa19n1aa17gov/A-traffic-stop-primer-august-2007.html

 

[jt59]

Any updates on this issue, how is the case proceeding?....there appears to be only one draw against the donated funds....

Are there any dates set?

Can/should we set up a collection can at the 2A rally for this?

 

[Capn Camo]

boy arent THEY lying? (cops)

RCW 9.41.270 doesnt provide for:

1.) declaring YOU a threat because someone else was
2.) seizure of personal property (firearm)
3.) you minding your own business constituting a "threat"

Another example of POLICE AGENDA fabricating a threat just because someone complained.

My take is that if they are afraid of something that cant hurt them, that they need a SHRINK not a COP.

PS the overgeneralization posted here (by reference, not necessarily posters opinion) that there are 'general characteristics that point out bad guys'
is contrary to the law, the 9.41.270 states it must be evident the PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL is a threat, not some vague, generic "general characteristics of other people."

 

[sudden valley gunner]

PS the overgeneralization posted here (by reference, not necessarily posters opinion) that there are 'general characteristics that point out bad guys'
is contrary to the law, the 9.41.270 states it must be evident the PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL is a threat, not some vague, generic "general characteristics of other people."

There has been Washington state supreme court cases to back that up too. But It was when I was researching something else and don't have the cite right now.

 

[arentol]

Nope. Clemmons was not OC'ing. Your manner of carrying is different than his.

Or it could be that the three agencies you see know their place and are professional.

Yeah, and I bet the guy who robbed the business the day before w07rolla walked in front of it OC was carrying in a different manner too.