LEO issues

[ronmanci]

That the 9/40 or .45?

How do the grips feel, I hear close to the medium size, but larger than or smaller than?

Mine is a 40. That grip is pretty close to the med. and it is a little softer that the factory one. I also just bought a S&W micro 90 flashlight for it. My favorite gun.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=926849

 

[ronmanci]

I have no problem with cops doing their job. The problem I have is when cops DON'T FOLLOW THE LAW. You'll find most reported encounters here are about cops who violate 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendment rights. Most of the larger metropolitan areas have recieved training bulletins on the legality of Open Carry, what is RAS, and when ID can be demanded. I have to assume cops have some training in the law.

If you are just "following orders" when you break the law, then I'd suggest your superiors are putting you at risk. You may want to get documentation so you can CYA in court.

I sometimes wonder why someone going into law enforcement. Is it a calling, a desire to improve a community, a paycheck, or something else?

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

1- I don't break the law. I do have to enforce some FU'ed laws. But I didn't make the law. The person elected by the people did.
2- At first it was a calling. I was an MP in the Marines so it was a natural move at the time. Now after 26 years, 4 in the Marines, 22 as a Deputy, it's just a paycheck.

 

[amlevin]

Im a LEO in NYS, which, you all know, has the dumbest gun laws going. Everyone needs to remember that LEO's only enforce the laws. Its the politicians that the voters elect, that make the laws. I don't agree with every law in the state, but I have a job to do, and I want to do it well, so i follow orders. I think that is all it really comes down to with most LEO's. We just want to do a good job at work, we take pride in the job that we do, just like everyone else.........

ronmanci-

No one will dispute your statement regarding NYS gun laws and to a point, LEO's having the responsibility to enforce the laws that are on the books.

Where the problem is the greatest here in Washington State, its with those officers that don't know, or don't care what the laws are. Officers that don't like the idea of anyone other than a Police Officer openly carrying a firearm will come up with all sorts of reasons to harass the carrier. We have a law in Washington State that makes it a gross misdemeanor for anyone to threaten confinement or financial harm to anyone, in order to prevent them from going about a lawful activity. It's Washington's Coercion Statute yet it's violated frequently when officers "detain" open carriers and threaten them with arrest. with the admonition of "tell it to the judge" (thus the financial harm due to attorney/court costs).

Officers in this State are supposedly taught that OC is legal yet many still make it their job to stop and intimidate those who do so. Are these officers "Just doing their job?" In this state, most of the animosity comes from actions such as this and the "fabrications" that the officers use to justify them.

You'll also find that there are those that are very vocal and seem to have more negative encounters than others. That's human nature. Some are naturally confrontational and others can remain cool regardless of the situation. Just like the ranks of Police Officers.

Big difference between laws in NY and WA. Here OC legal and the LEO's should act accordingly. There, the people have some work to do with their laws.

 

[gogodawgs]

Ahhh..... the old 'don't break the law'...

While you are correct in that general premise, you and I know you only enforce the laws that you/department choose to....

for example, here in Washington it is illegal to be in public with a cold.... and I bet that not one single LEO has 'enforced' that law in a century...

At one time, as little as 25 years ago or so, LEO had discretion in enforcement of minor laws, yet the new attitude seems to show no discretion.

 

[Badger Johnson]

1- I don't break the law. I do have to enforce some FU'ed laws. But I didn't make the law. The person elected by the people did.
2- At first it was a calling. I was an MP in the Marines so it was a natural move at the time. Now after 26 years, 4 in the Marines, 22 as a Deputy, it's just a paycheck.

Thanks for dialoging with us. Please give some examples of 'FU'ed' laws you have to, and have, enforced.

 

[Trigger Dr]

You aren't teaching them that. You are teaching them that money is the only thing that matters. Your boys will grow up to be cowards just like you. They will cower in fear that they can't make it through life without finding moral work to do. They will grow up without the spine to stand up for what they believe in -- only to follow orders.



Ahh that story. So you think the only people that pull people from a burning car are police? Most likely, if the police are pulling someone from a burning car its because they caused the fire. By the time the police arrive at the scene of a burning car, that person is likely dead. A citizen does these things without a paycheck or the need to be praised as a hero because he cared about humanity.




LEOs in general are bad. You all hide behind the laws and claim that as morality when you want to justify enforcing bad laws. It's pathetic. Grow a pair and stand up for what you believe in -- that is ... if you believe in anything.

sigfan you are out of line with your personal attack.

 

[reillo584]

The problem is with anyone in a position of "authority" who acts based on an understanding that OC is not allowed under the law when we know they are wrong. This includes store clerks and managers, bus drivers, city councils, county commissioners, park boards, library boards, private security guards and, yes, LEOs.

Well said… I will have to add the arrogant attitude of some people (not all) in those positions doesn’t help at all... “You have to do what I say because I’m in charge”…:banghead:
Even after they find out they are wrong they still don't want to acknowledge their stupidity... I have a problem with those kinds of people, not because their position of authority.

 

[amlevin]

I dont' think the "problem" is with LEOs in particular. The problem is with anyone in a position of "authority" who acts based on an understanding that OC is not allowed under the law when we know they are wrong. This includes store clerks and managers, bus drivers, city councils, county commissioners, park boards, library boards, private security guards and, yes, LEOs. It is more aggravating when we know that they know better, or at least that they should. LEOs fall into that category.

Lammo-

Any reason you left Prosecutors off the above list? Recent events in Kirkland and Vancouver could lead one to believe that they also are misinformed or worse, have "agendas". This is even worse than when it's done by a LEO because the Prosecutors are supposed to know the law and apply it correctly.

Again, not all would fit in this category but the few that do are a big problem.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Whatever....
I don't need to cop out. I just need to show my boys that no matter what you do in life you always give it your best. Just like my father taught me.

I wonder if you would think I'm such a cop out if I was to pull your mother, wife, or kids out of a burning car. Like I've done for folks before. I could save your family, or I could choose not to. Your suggesting I should be the kind of person that would choose not to. Thats not me. Those are the bad LEO's. The guys who do what they want instead of what they are supposed to. I don't try to interpret the law, my job is to enforce it. It's really that simple. Like I said, blame the voters that put these lawmakeing idiots in office. Not the last guy in the line.

Wow.....a good example of an attitude I detest yet find common among police.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

You should blame the politicians or maybe even the voters.

I love it when someone tells me to blame everyone but them.

Reminds me of my 3 year old.

 

[sudden valley gunner]

I love it when someone tells me to blame everyone but them.

Reminds me of my 3 year old.

If I take an oath to uphold the constitution of country and state, I'd tell my superiors to go pound sand.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

. I could save your family, or I could choose not to. Your suggesting I should be the kind of person that would choose not to. Thats not me. Those are the bad LEO's.

Thank you for recognizing that fact. You can choose to help, or choose not to.

There is NO legal obligation for an LEO to protect an individual citizen. SCOTUS has ruled clearly on that issue. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

Zero duty to protect.

It is up to each citizen to provide their own protection, anything above and beyond that is a bonus (or sometimes a curse).

 

[tombrewster421]

Originally Posted by ronmanci
As a LEO you cannot go against the law or ignore a statute. If I was to do that I would be fired, would be labeled as a trouble maker and depending on the extent of what I ignored to act upon, I could be personally liable.

Yes, cops have to obey the law; just like criminals do! The law doesn't make some magic barrier that people can't cross. It just defines when they do. Criminals and cops alike are able to cross that line. Cops just don't get prosecuted for it because they're on the same side as the prosecutor. No, not ALL cops break the law. We're talking about the ones who do. And don't tell me that you'd be fired for not enforcing a stupid law. If there's no report then how would your superiors know? Concealed means concealed right. I find it extremely sad that you find your calling to be "just a job" now. Maybe you should look back at what made you consider it a calling, make a real difference in the world and then it would feel that way again. Do the RIGHT thing. Please don't take our issues with OUR local police personally. We know that you are NOT them. Good luck on your journey that is life, and teach your boys that you can do the right thing no matter who you work for.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

. Like I said, blame the voters that put these lawmakeing idiots in office. Not the last guy in the line.

But, you are in the line.

Equally culpable, whether at the front or the rear.

And your tired line of "blaming the voters" is complete BS. Democracy = 49.9% of voters can be NOT represented. Currently I have ZERO representation in my state legislature or 2 of the 3 branches of Federal Government for my jurisdiction.

I have ZERO representation. I'm a voter. You cannot blame me for this fubar crap.

 

[Kryteon]

I see this thread heading for the dumpster

So before it does...

We live by the rule of law. If you don't like the law, then change it. But, don't blame a cop for enforcing the law. I may think the law is unconstitutional. I have the right to petition the government for change or challenge. I hold no animosity towards cops who enforce the law, even if I don't agree with it. I do not want cops picking and choosing what laws to enforce.

My beef is with unprofessional cops that abuse my rights and ignore the law.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Kryteon

 

[Claytron]

COMMENTS REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Personal attacks and LEO bashing

Edit by sigfan after the moderation:
I think this is a common problem on this forum. Everyone takes issues very personally. We can't have a serious discussion about sensitive issues without someone getting their panties in a wad over the tone with which it was said. Someone tells me that my anger is misplaced, I could take THAT as a personal attack, but instead I sack up and back up my argument -- only to have the one-sided moderation occur.

There are plenty of people here who flag arguments they dont' like as personal attacks or malicious -- even more administrators willing to moderate because of that. This is the same behavior that causes the debate of firearm carry to begin with. Everyone is trying to shut the other side up. Until you guys get to the point where you can not run in with your argument and cry fowl everytime someone calls you on your BS, you'll be fighting a losing battle of public opinion.

There's my two lincolns and that's all I have to say about that.

Here here..... I understand that this is a private forum with rules we all agree to abide by but what i cant understand is how people expect to push forth a movement like the 2nd ammendment if we still arent even respecting the first amendment. It just strikes me as odd that, on a forum where a persons RIGHTS seem to be of the utmost importance, simply stating your opinion about a cop even fairly respectably will get your comments moderated..... And its obviously not a case of just a hard ass moderator who goes by the rules, because there are dozens of non-cop comments that break the rules and go completely unmoderated.

It seems like some pretty harsh favoritism and i cant imagine it looks good at all to anyone on the outside looking in on the forums activities.

 

[Dave_pro2a]

I see this thread heading for the dumpster

Not at all. It's just been an interesting discussion. Always nice to hear from the other side

 

[amlevin]

simply stating your opinion about a cop even fairly respectably will get your comments moderated..... And its obviously not a case of just a hard ass moderator who goes by the rules, because there are dozens of non-cop comments that break the rules and go completely unmoderated.

I don't think that it's a case of getting ones comments moderated when they state an opinion about "a cop" but more a case of moderating comments like "All Cops are liars, not to be trusted, etc., etc." There are lots of threads that have addressed specific cops and their actions that have run their course with no moderation whatever.

 

[ronmanci]

Thanks for dialoging with us. Please give some examples of 'FU'ed' laws you have to, and have, enforced.

Thanks for being tactful and inviting. Last thing I want to do is start arguments. I speak of my experiences and opinions only. I will never tell anyone else what they should, or shouldn't do. I'm not going to judge someone and call them names through a computer, because they don't agree with me. I can only tell you what works for me. I don't expect everyone to agree. But come on, don't be a fanatic. It's that kind of unrational behavior that hurts the pro gun movement and makes gun owners seem like a bunch of "John Wayne's". Be tactful in your endevors. You get a lot further with sugar than spice. I'm sure "that guy" would be the first to call the police for help in an emergency. He would count on us to serve and protect him but I dont think he would say thank you.


Here is a link that sums up NYS gun laws. Toughest in the nation, besides D.C.
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

 

[gogodawgs]

Here here..... I understand that this is a private forum with rules we all agree to abide by but what i cant understand is how people expect to push forth a movement like the 2nd ammendment if we still arent even respecting the first amendment. It just strikes me as odd that, on a forum where a persons RIGHTS seem to be of the utmost importance, simply stating your opinion about a cop even fairly respectably will get your comments moderated..... And its obviously not a case of just a hard ass moderator who goes by the rules, because there are dozens of non-cop comments that break the rules and go completely unmoderated.

It seems like some pretty harsh favoritism and i cant imagine it looks good at all to anyone on the outside looking in on the forums activities.

1st Amendment reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Did Congress edit the post? No. That is such a phony an off base argument, it really gets old.