"Man With A Gun" Incident at UVA

[LEO 229]

imported post

44Brent wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Well, now was not the time to be having anything like a gun on the campus. All of the victims haven't even been buried yet.

There you go again trying to be an "opinion enforcement officer" rather than a "law enforcement officer". If you try this out in public while wearing your uniform, I suspect that the VCDLwill beshowing up at some city council meeting to discuss your department's training procedures.

I guess you missed what I was saying. And yes, that was my "Opinion" however it had nothing to do withlaw or any enforcement action.

Is it wrong to have an opinion here?

And I am sorry but, what the hell does my personal opinionhave to do with training issues? Should the department be trained to NOT have compassion?

You must not have read this..... so I will let you read this again and give you the benefit of the doubt.

Believe me.. I understand what your saying however.... I am talking about compassion here. Those kids have been thru so much now and many for their friends killed. Maybe anyone wanting to OC should avoid that area and if legally permitted... CC instead.

I am just saying... give them a little time to adjust. Nobody is questioning legality or self protection.... just appropriateness and timing. If you desire to OC.... avoid the campus for a while.

 

[44Brent]

imported post

LEO 229, if you are opposed to open carry, I suggest to disarm yourself or conceal your own gun so as to show "compassion" to the surviving students. If you fail to do so, I'm sure that the students will be traumatized and will need years and years of psychotherapy.Did your commanding officer tell you to disarm or conceal? If not, perhaps he needs to go to a politically-correct sensitivity training class.

But wait, what do you do if a 911 call comes in about someone shooting up the campus? The students might just be a tad disappointed if you fail to show up without visiblly carrying a gun!

Are we into therealm of silly discussions yet? Obviously, mycomments above are just as ridiculous as were yours.

I don't expect you to see the absurdity of your comments, but perhaps others will see that you are simply being ridiculous with your claims that students are going to somehow be "traumatized" at the sight of a normal citizen openly carrying a pistol in a holster.

Do you want to do something helpful for students? I've got a suggestion: set up a program to bringstudents into a police training center and teach them the ABC's of how to defend themselves by shooting criminals.

 

[HankT]

imported post

44Brent wrote:

LEO 229, if you are opposed to open carry, I suggest to disarm yourself or conceal your own gun so as to show "compassion" to the surviving students. If you fail to do so, I'm sure that the students will be traumatized and will need...

People don't get traumatized by seing LEOs openly carrying a sidearm. That's a normal condition forthem.

 

[44Brent]

imported post

People don't get traumatized by seing LEOs openly carrying a sidearm. That's a normal condition forthem.

Yes, you are correct. It is also correct that few citizens ever get traumatized by seeing a non-LEO carrying a pistol in an exposed holster. I was trying to point out how ridiculous LEO229's comments were.

 

[HankT]

imported post

44Brent wrote:

People don't get traumatized by seing LEOs openly carrying a sidearm. That's a normal condition forthem.

It is also correct that few citizens ever get traumatized by seeing a non-LEO carrying a pistol in an exposed holster.

I don't think that is true. At least not for students and faculty. On a campus. A week after the greatest loss oflife in any shooting on a campus in U.S. history.

Even LEOs might be said to be "traumatized" by seeing a non-LEO carrying a pistol on a campus for awhile.

Go try it. You'll see.

 

[ParaWarthog]

imported post

Let me get this corrected in my mind:

The student who sparked this whole situation was arrested for brandishing, correct? Am I correct in saying that if he was found to have been carrying a handgun concealed (and had a permit recognized by Va.) he could have been expelled, but not arrested?

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

44Brent wrote:

LEO 229, if you are opposed to open carry, I suggest to disarm yourself or conceal your own gun so as to show "compassion" to the surviving students. If you fail to do so, I'm sure that the students will be traumatized and will need years and years of psychotherapy.Did your commanding officer tell you to disarm or conceal? If not, perhaps he needs to go to a politically-correct sensitivity training class.

But wait, what do you do if a 911 call comes in about someone shooting up the campus? The students might just be a tad disappointed if you fail to show up without visiblly carrying a gun!

Are we into therealm of silly discussions yet? Obviously, mycomments above are just as ridiculous as were yours.

I don't expect you to see the absurdity of your comments, but perhaps others will see that you are simply being ridiculous with your claims that students are going to somehow be "traumatized" at the sight of a normal citizen openly carrying a pistol in a holster.

Do you want to do something helpful for students? I've got a suggestion: set up a program to bringstudents into a police training center and teach them the ABC's of how to defend themselves by shooting criminals.

First.. you ridiculemy opinion and now remark that everything I said was ridiculious. Make up your mind.

I am not going to go in to a battle of words with you. It is clear to me that you have no compassion for the student there and you have a fixed focus on your RIGHT to OC when and where you choose.

Furthermore, a LEO in uniform bearing his side arm is accepted without question by everyone. I cannot recall the last time anyone called the police to report a police officer carrying a gun.

On the other hand... people do not see this activity as normal for the every day citizen and in many cases has caused them to report it to.. the police.

And now, at Virginia Techa mass murder has happened and thousands of students are scared!!

But if it makes you feel like a big man to go exercise your rights to OC there... have at it. I am sure you will be back here to complain that they did not welcome you there with open arms.

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

ParaWarthog wrote:

Let me get this corrected in my mind:

The student who sparked this whole situation was arrested for brandishing, correct? Am I correct in saying that if he was found to have been carrying a handgun concealed (and had a permit recognized by Va.) he could have been expelled, but not arrested?

I believe the student was waiving the BB gun around and this placed several people in fear. This would have been in violation of state law vs packing a gun legally on the campus grounds that would be in violation to the campus rules.

 

[leprechaun117]

imported post

ParaWarthog wrote:

Let me get this corrected in my mind:

The student who sparked this whole situation was arrested for brandishing, correct? Am I correct in saying that if he was found to have been carrying a handgun concealed (and had a permit recognized by Va.) he could have been expelled, but not arrested?

correct. I'll assume that he was using the BB gun as if he were robbing someone, and it was not holstered.

Had he simply been in posession of the object he could have been expelled (or most likely sent to the UVA honor board... bad news... people get expelled for getting help on papers while others are let off for much more serious offences. It's a really poor peer justive system with many flaws.)

 

[Lew]

imported post

Leo229 wrote:

They also see the same stuff on TV and in movies. As adults... we know the difference and know it is just entertainment. Kids on the other hand..... are still learning what is right, wrong, appropriate, and inappropriate.

First, clarification. Is this kids in general or "kids" in college? Just when are we rational adults these days?

Second, why do the rules change when something bad happens? Wearing a firearm shows no disrespect to the victims. If anything, isn't it showing a unity? A reminder that this won't happen again on our watch? I dunno, just irks me when I have to play nice and dumb to make someone else feel better. I understand where you're coming from, definately, but it seems like a personal choice.

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

Lew wrote:

Leo229 wrote:

They also see the same stuff on TV and in movies. As adults... we know the difference and know it is just entertainment. Kids on the other hand..... are still learning what is right, wrong, appropriate, and inappropriate.

First, clarification. Is this kids in general or "kids" in college? Just when are we rational adults these days?

Second, why do the rules change when something bad happens? Wearing a firearm shows no disrespect to the victims. If anything, isn't it showing a unity? A reminder that this won't happen again on our watch? I dunno, just irks me when I have to play nice and dumb to make someone else feel better. I understand where you're coming from, definately, but it seems like a personal choice.

Younger kids... thru high school. They have been desensitized to death and violance.Mature adults are different and view the gamesas entertainment.

Keeping in mind that the younger kids are impressionable and their minds are still growing. They are still figuring out what is right and wrong. Seeing realistic images for hours everyday of murder and shooting at people can modify your behavior.

Don't get me wrong... I love video games... I am just concerned that they are a little too real for young kids to be playing. I know.. I know... You were young or you know somebody who was and they turned out fine.... That is great.. but you know there are other kids that are not as bright.

Being compassionate is not a rule it is a choice. You should be taking into consideration that a huge loss of life happened there. Some students have not returned to class. Some will NEVER go back. Some need to stay and finish their schooling.

Some gun ownersfeel like they wouldbe helping the students by showing uparmed. "Not on my watch!" Some students may welcome this protection but I am sure is would create more cause for fear asothers wonder who these people are with guns.

So if you think about it this way... You will have students that like it and some that will hate it. What group to you satisfy? You are not required to be there and your armed presence may make some students feel uneasy. What do you tell them? Too bad, get used to it?

Obviously, this is my opinion but I feel it is not unreasonable.


To recap... I am only suggesting thepromotion ofa stress free environment so that the students can recover and work thru the mass murder in their back yard.

 

[Lew]

imported post

Well, I'd say that's a pretty darn good explanation. You changed my mind.

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

Lew wrote:

Well, I'd say that's a pretty darn good explanation. You changed my mind.

I appreciate your understanding.

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

Here is a date time line of school violence and death.... Seems like we have an increasing trend going here. Not that it did not happen in the past.... but it is happening more and more each year.

2006 had an explosion!! And 2007 is getting up there now too.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres


5/28/1975 - Brampton, Ontario, Canada

10/27/1975 - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

1/29/1979 - San Diego, California, USA

4/5/1982 - Hot Springs, Arkansas, USA

1/20/1983 - St. Louis, Missouri, USA

12/17/1983 - Ithaca, New York, USA

1/21/1985 - Kansas, USA

3/2/1987 - Missouri, USA

12/6/1989 - Montreal, Canada

1/8/1991 - Richardson, Texas, United States

11/1/1991 - Iowa City, Iowa, USA

5/1/1992 - Olivehurst, California, USA

8/24/1992 - Montreal, Quebec, Canada

12/14/1992 - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, USA

1/18/1993 - Grayson, Kentucky, USA

3/25/1994 - Uninc. Cherokee County, Georgia, United States

5/26/1994 - Union, Kentucky, United States

6/17/1994 - Holywood, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom

10/12/1994 - Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

10/13/1994 - Greensboro, North Carolina, USA

11/15/1995 - Lynnville, Tennessee, USA

2/2/1996 - Moses Lake, Washington, USA

3/13/1996 - Dunblane, Scotland, United Kingdom

7/8/1996 - Blakenhall,

9/17/1996 - University Park, Pennsylvania, USA

10/1/1996 - Queensland, Australia

10/16/1996 - West Lafayette, Indiana, USA

2/19/1997 - Bethel, Alaska, USA

10/1/1997 - Pearl, Mississippi, USA

12/2/1997 - West Paducah, Kentucky, USA

3/24/1998 - Jonesboro, Arkansas, USA

4/24/1998 - Edinboro, Pennsylvania, USA

5/21/1998 - Springfield, Oregon, USA

5/21/1998 - Jersey Village, Texas, USA

6/15/1998 - Richmond, Virginia, USA

4/20/1999 - Littleton, Colorado, USA

4/28/1999 - Taber, Alberta, Canada

5/20/1999 - Conyers, Georgia, USA

5/25/1999 - Bridgman, Michigan, USA

8/3/1999 - Latrobe University, Melbourne, Australia

12/6/1999 - Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, USA

12/7/1999 - Veghel, The Netherlands

3/16/2000 - Brannenburg, Bavaria, Germany

4/20/2000 - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

10/1/2000 - Glendale, Arizona, USA

1/30/2001 - Cupertino, California, USA

3/5/2001 - Santee, California, USA

3/7/2001 - Williamsport, Pennsylvania, USA

3/22/2001 - El Cajon, California, USA

6/8/2001 - Ikeda, Osaka, Japan

10/1/2001 - Modbury High School, South Australia, Australia

1/16/2002 - Grundy, Virginia, USA

4/26/2002 - Erfurt, Germany

4/29/2002 - Vlasenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina

10/21/2002 - Melbourne, Australia

10/28/2002 - Tucson, Arizona, USA

4/14/2003 - New Orleans, Louisiana, USA

4/24/2003 - Red Lion, Pennsylvania, USA

5/9/2003 - Cleveland, Ohio, USA

9/24/2003 - Cold Spring, Minnesota, USA

1/13/2004 - Den Haag, The Netherlands

2/2/2004 - Washington, D.C., USA

2/3/2004 - Palmetto Bay, Florida, USA

2/9/2004 - East Greenbush, New York, USA

5/7/2004 - Randallstown

9/1/2004 - Beslan, North Ossetia, Russian Federation

9/1/2004 - Clinton Township, Michigan, USA

9/27/2004 - Romeo, Michigan, USA

9/28/2004 - Carmen de Patagones,

10/7/2004 - Newburyport, Massachusetts, United States

11/26/2004 - Ruzhou, China

12/10/2004 - Nine Mile Falls, Washington, United States

2/1/2005 - Sheboygan Falls, Wisconsin, USA

3/21/2005 - Red Lake, Minnesota, USA

10/21/2005 - Saginaw, Michigan, USA

11/8/2005 - Jacksboro, Tennessee, USA

1/13/2006 - Longwood, Florida, United States

2/1/2006 - Bellaire, Texas, USA

2/23/2006 - Roseburg, Oregon, USA

3/1/2006 - Sydney, NSW, Australia

3/2/2006 - Muscatine, Iowa, USA

3/3/2006 - Greenwood, Indiana, USA

3/14/2006 - Reno, Nevada, USA

4/20/2006 - Riverton, Kansas, USA

4/22/2006 - North Pole, Alaska, USA

4/23/2006 - Pearl, Mississippi, USA

4/24/2006 - Puyallup, Washington, USA

5/25/2006 - Northampton, Pennsylvania, United States

6/2/2006 - Utica, New York, USA

8/30/2006 - Hillsborough, North Carolina, USA

9/8/2006 - Paris, France

9/13/2006 - Montreal, Quebec, Canada

9/14/2006 - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

9/15/2006 - Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA

9/16/2006 - St. Louis, Missouri, United States

9/17/2006 - Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA

9/18/2006 - Hudson, Quebec, Canada

9/22/2006 - Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA

9/27/2006 - Bailey, Colorado, USA

10/1/2006 - Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, Canada

10/2/2006 - Cincinnati, Ohio, USA

10/2/2006 - Las Vegas, Nevada, United States

10/4/2006 - Evans, Georgia, United States

10/6/2006 - Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

10/6/2006 - Kernersville, North Carolina

10/9/2006 - Joplin, Missouri, United States

10/17/2006 - Uninc. Fort Bend County, Texas, United States

11/20/2006 - Emsdetten, Germany

1/26/2007 - Uninc. Los Angeles County, California USA

3/5/2007 - Barrington, Rhode Island, United States

3/7/2007 - Midland, Michigan, USA

3/16/2007 - Riner, Virginia, United States

3/18/2007 - Sabayoi, Thailand

4/3/2007 - Anna, Texas, United States

4/10/2007 - Gresham, Oregon, USA

4/13/2007 - Calgary, Alberta, Canada

4/16/2007 - Blacksburg, Virginia, USA

4/18/2007 - Jacksonville, Florida, USA

 

[30 cal slut]

imported post

LEO 229 -

That Active Shooter article you posted was very informative.

It seems in many places you could replace LEO/Officer with "Armed Citizen."

I am also struck by this, which is seemingly common-sense:

Once the shooter opens fire, immediate action needs to be taken...Take the shot.

Do you have a source or URL for this article?

Thanks!

-slut

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

30 cal slut wrote:

LEO 229 -

That Active Shooter article you posted was very informative.

It seems in many places you could replace LEO/Officer with "Armed Citizen."

I am also struck by this, which is seemingly common-sense:

Once the shooter opens fire, immediate action needs to be taken...Take the shot.

Do you have a source or URL for this article?

Thanks!

-slut

Sorry... Links get dropped when doing the spell check.

I edited the post and here is the link again

http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/active-shooter5ph.shtml

I figured it would be useful to the forum.

 

[rlh2005]

imported post

LEO 229 wrote:

Here is a date time line of school violence and death.... Seems like we have an increasing trend going here. Not that it did not happen in the past.... but it is happening more and more each year.

2006 had an explosion!! And 2007 is getting up there now too.

I'm throwing this out here since I have nothing to support it.

Could the increase be because we are a more connected society?

Twenty-five years ago, there were only the big three network new outlets, AP, Reuters, and newspapers. Now, you have 8+ national cable news channels, numerous local news channels (ie, News Channel 8 in DC), the Internet, satellite radio, crackberries, podcasts, the original outlets, and all the news like programs (ET, Access Hollywood, etc). News and information is more widely and readily available today. Today, if a famous person passes gas, the entire planet knows its bouquet and flavor in intricate detail within 15 minutes.

You also have the alleged media shift to the "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality in which evil events are much more widely reported than the good events.

How many past events never made it into the news or didn't receive larger coverage?

 

[67GT390FB]

imported post

leprechaun117 wrote:

Had he simply been in posession of the object he could have been expelled (or most likely sent to the UVA honor board... bad news... people get expelled for getting help on papers (AS THEY SHOULD)while others are let off for much more serious offences(Like What?and if its a criminal offense the courts handle it). It's a really poor peer justive system with many flaws.)

WRONG WRONG WRONG! Where did you get your information on The Honor System? Seeing your statement is almost as big a ducktape moment as reading some anti's commentary on gun ownership.

As a graduate of the University I know for a fact that he will not be sent before the Honor Committee for this offense. He would go before the Judiciary Committee. The Honor Code covers lying, cheating, and stealing by students ONLY. So unless he is found to be lying about his use of the gun or that he stole it, his crime would not be an Honor Code violation. There isonlya singlesanction levied forHonor Code violations, EXPULSION. It is a pretty awesome detterant to doing something stupid. You can even be stripped of your degree after graduation if convicted of an Honor offense. Its only a flawed system if you believe that you should not be held to a high level of personalHonor or responsibilty.

I equate the mentallity ofits ok to help someone on a term paper to its ok to buy this gun for somebody else. The acts are different to a degree but the mentality is the same. Its ok to copythis paper it ok to cheat on my wife its ok its ok to steal this car form the rich guy, its ok to lie on my taxes or on my inurance application. Where does the feel good at all costs mentality stop and personal responsibilty start?

Ionlyknew one person to be found guilty of an Honor Code violation while I was a student. He was a classmate of mine, involved in student goverment, volunteered at the school and had keys toour building in order to do his jobs within the school etc etc. His problem was that he used those keys to enter a professors office and copy another students exam. He was caught because he copied a girls paper who had made a very specific mistake on the problem. This happenedour Fourth year the last semester. This guy threw away four years of college over being afraid to get a C or a D on the exam. Either grade, which he could have easily gotten on his own, would not have prevented him from getting his degree. This crime cost him his degree and will permanently follow him around when applying to another college etc. Whatupper level universitydo you think would grant admission toa cheater who has been expelled for such? I suppose this is not a serious offense though.

The guy in this brandishing situation will most likely not even be charged at the student level seeing as how he was arrested and charged by the police and will be going to circuit court. Oh I also went to high school with one of the guys who was busted in Operation Equinox(drug sting at the University) he went to jail soI wouldn't say he was let off for a more serious offence.

Joe

 

[LEO 229]

imported post

rlh2005 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Here is a date time line of school violence and death.... Seems like we have an increasing trend going here. Not that it did not happen in the past.... but it is happening more and more each year.

2006 had an explosion!! And 2007 is getting up there now too.

I'm throwing this out here since I have nothing to support it.

Could the increase be because we are a more connected society?

Twenty-five years ago, there were only the big three network new outlets, AP, Reuters, and newspapers. Now, you have 8+ national cable news channels, numerous local news channels (ie, News Channel 8 in DC), the Internet, satellite radio, crackberries, podcasts, the original outlets, and all the news like programs (ET, Access Hollywood, etc). News and information is more widely and readily available today. Today, if a famous person passes gas, the entire planet knows its bouquet and flavor in intricate detail within 15 minutes.

You also have the alleged media shift to the "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality in which evil events are much more widely reported than the good events.

How many past events never made it into the news or didn't receive larger coverage?

This is a valid question. I trimmed out some items that were older and did not deal with kids as the shooter.

I am not sure that the news failed to jump on the story. I think the events just did not happen as often then. The big news outlets would have covered it.

I cannot attest to how complete the data is for the website I gathered the info from but it appears to be rather extensive.

It does make you wonder why... I kinda think about the video games.

 

[roscoe13]

imported post

LEO 229 wrote:

It does make you wonder why... I kinda think about the video games.

I kinda think about Moms no longer being home as a rule....

Peace