Negative LEO/IKEA Encounter

[hopnpop]

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T Vance wrote:

hopnpop wrote:

Kudos, T. Great LEO handling. I keep imagining myself in that situation and I don't think I would have maintained such a composure.(Have you had an LEO encounter yet?This was my second so I have had practice)I would have been red-faced, with sweat running down it, and epileptic butterflies in my belly.(The second I saw him my body starting reacting. The second I started to deny him info about me my bodyREALLY started to react. I was shaking so bad. I'm not sure if they could tell or my senses were heightened and it just really stood out to me.My stomach was in knots for almost 4 hours after this incident, andI lost my appetitefor the day. I would probably be verbally vigilant, (it's hard to keepthat attitude back when you are not treated withthe same respect. To be honest LEO 2 (officer Kroger) was polite during this whole incident, but they could have been playing "Good cop/Bad Cop" too)but being put under such a spotlight would've stressed me in a big way, and my body doesn't let me hide that real well. (Practice what you are going to say every once in a while. Obviously there is a BIG chance all of that will go out the window when it really happens though)

No I haven't had an LEO encounter yet. Hell, I've only had a couple civilian encounters!! So no, I don't have any, eh, practice D). And with the 2nd LEO being 'friendly' and all, I immediately got the "good cop/bad cop" impression. I'm not a confrontational person and it would take a concious, constant effort on my part to stand my ground, knowing what the law is, and what rights I'm standing on. My gut reaction would be to back down and comply with whatever they said, since it's been so engrained over the years to respect their authority. Now, having a better understanding of police power vs. gun rights, I know better. It would just take, like I said, a constant reminding myself that I'm not violating law and I'm in the right.

Believe me, I've mentally rehearsed what I would say to whom in response to an interaction regarding my carrying many times. But like any plan, when the reality hits hard, I would think it a little harder to stick to your plan when they're really standing in front of you and really intimidating you. But you're right, it's much better to have practiced it in your head than have to work thru the situation with no plan.

 

[TheEggman]

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T Vance wrote:

Does anyone have a link to a sample letter that is sent to business about this sort of thing? I'll change things around so that it relates to IKEA and they realize how much money they just lost, not just from me, but other law abiding citizens too.

Try:
Sample Letter to a Store Manager

At: http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/ccw_letter_tpl_001.html

Best,

Egg

 

[mikestilly]

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Hmm I don't know about you all you guys but I'm ready to OC and check out some of their preppy furniture there at Ikea.

 

[Mike]

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wow - good work, but generally I think it is wise to state your name - makes you look reasonable, ensures they document that they detained you by name in police records in case you decide to litigate laetr, and perhaps helps you overcome their claims of qualified immunity as they try to cite to Hiibel as basis for demanding your name even if your state does not have a Hiibel compliant stop and ID statute.

In this case though, the police did not seem to do anthing really wrong - the Ikea employee sounds nutty - I recommend you follow up with Ikea to complain.

 

[T Vance]

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[T Vance]

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[Mike]

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T Vance wrote:

mikestilly wrote:

Hmm I don't know about you all you guys but I'm ready to OC and check out some of their preppy furniture there at Ikea.

Just be prepared to be there for 3 hours, or several visits before the police are actually called on you...

Are they not posted? Ikea in Virginia of I-95 was posted last time I went

 

[T Vance]

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[maahes]

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I also have OCd at that store without incident. Including a few months ago for about 5 hours while I measured and decided on a living room set. Never had anything said and I spoke with a bunch of employees and a manager (inventory issue, they couldnt find where they stored the couch I wanted). For sure need a official response from IKEA on their policy as I have been planing redoing my bedroom and they are on my list.

Very well handled TVance

 

[mikestilly]

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T Vance wrote:

Mike wrote:

T Vance wrote:
Just be prepared to be there for 3 hours, or several visits before the police are actually called on you...

Are they not posted?  Ikea in Virginia of I-95 was posted last time I went

I've never been to an Ikea. I've only heard people talking wildly about it. Considering that we are a long ways out from being able to afford furniture it gives me a good reason to go searching for replacements. Anyone want to join us? We'll pick a weekend where we can spend a long time there.

 

[CoonDog]

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My biggest gripe with the Canton PD here is that they're acting as security for a private business while on the public dole. Since the store never asked T Vance to leave, he's not tresspassing, so they have no reason to call the po po. Since when does Canton send out the boys in blue just to bully someone around?

 

[T Vance]

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[mikestilly]

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T Vance wrote:

CoonDog wrote:

My biggest gripe with the Canton PD here is that they're acting as security for a private business while on the public dole.  Since the store never asked T Vance to leave, he's not tresspassing, so they have no reason to call the po po.  Since when does Canton send out the boys in blue just to bully someone around?

I never thought of it like that. Nice observation!

Me either that sums it up real well. The problem looks to be they don't have dispatch filter through BS calls and pass anything through. Everything is kicked off once the dispatcher routes these calls to an officer.

If the dispatcher asked the manager what T Vance was doing and he states "Buying a entertainment center". Is the pistol in a holster? "Yes" Is he waving it around? "No" does he appear drunk? "No". What exactly is the problem? "He has a gun". Ok then if you dont want him there you're free to ask him to leave the store.

Is it me or this is too common sense. Considering they are dispatching cars to some place because a man has a tool on him is completely irrisponsible!!!! :cuss: I'd compare it with you walking around with a cell phone on your hip. Is carrying a cell phone on your hip legal. "Yes" Is carrying a pistol on your hip legal when in the proper places? "Yes" Whats so friggin hard to understand here?????

 

[ghostrider]

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Mike wrote:

wow - good work, but generally I think it is wise to state your name - makes you look reasonable, ensures they document that they detained you by name in police records in case you decide to litigate laetr, and perhaps helps you overcome their claims of qualified immunity as they try to cite to Hiibel as basis for demanding your name even if your state does not have a Hiibel compliant stop and ID statute.

In this case though, the police did not seem to do anthing really wrong - the Ikea employee sounds nutty - I recommend you follow up with Ikea to complain.

IDK.

They clearly stated that he wasn't being detained. One of the indicators of a Terry Stop (as mentioned in court documents) is an officer blocking a person's progress to leave. They did that, albeit momentarily. So, they did detain him, after telling him that he wasn't being detained. They also ordered him to "wait" while they cited him for Trespass. Again, they ordered him to wait, as it was phrase as an order (again indicating that he was being detained).

T Vance,

Excellent job on handling the situation. Your behavior during this encounter will help relations between citizens and LEO. What they did was outright harassment. All they had to do was tell you that the management requested that you leave (I'd have asked to hear it from an actually employee of the establishment since there are way too many documented instances of officers lying to intimidate. Including this particular incident). They wanted to keep you around to try to get you on something.

Bravo Zulu.

 

[codename_47]

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Shame, shame, no recorder, but you did great overall.

LEO 1 - I think you know what I'm here for (as he looks at my hip).

I would have dragged it out of him. "No, I really don't know. Why don't you go ahead and say it"


Me - Under resonable suspision of what crime am I being detained?

Excellent!! That is an awesome question to ask. The only thing I'd do different is respond asking for his name and info.

LEO 1 - I never said you were being detained.

Thanks, go bother someone else.

LEO - I can see you are being very difficult.

Hey dude, you started talking to me, why don't you go solve some real crime, mmmk?

LEO 1 - Wait, just stay here for a minute.

Me - No. I want to leave.

Shoot, I'd argue that you just got arrested.

 

[Michigander]

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Mike, I kind of disagree with your idea on giving out your name.

It seems to me that for one thing, you aren't required to for OCing (here) and doing so voluntarily when being pushed around is nothing more than obedience training, especially if the PD is already aware of OCing, and pretty much all PD's in Michigan now are. It's important for them to understand they can't stop us or anyone else just because they want to and demand a name and address and other details.

If they Terry stop me without just cause, then they can take my ID without my consent from my wallet. My ID and CPL are inside of a pouch with a hefty legal disclaimer. If they unlawfully search me, take them from there and run them, I will basically have them by the balls at that point for a bunch of laws they were warned they were violating. It will be recorded electronically that they did it, and the MSP will investigate when I complain about it. The icing on the cake would be that it would probably be video taped by both me and them.

If they don't detain me and I merely leave, there is no problem. In no case can I see a reason to give out my name during an illegal stop. The only time I think its reasonable to give my name is when I tell it to the Chief, Sheriff, or Director with a formal complaint.

 

[T Vance]

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[the500kid]

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Bikenut wrote:

The good thing is that folks like you who know the law and counter questions (that are cloaked in the unspoken assumption of being orders from an authority figure.. ie.. a police officer) with questions that require answers directly from the law and not the officer himself/herself stop the "game".

Example:
LEO asks- "Can I see your ID?"
Again, this is just a question.

I reply- "Am I required to show you my ID?"
That requires an answer directly from the laws governing the situation at hand regardless of what the individual officer thinks or how he/she wants the interview to go. That "stops" the "game".

I agree with you up until your comment i put in red. LEO can say anything they want it does not require them to answer from the laws. The LEO could very well say yes your required to show your ID with out citeing anything. I know its been posted on here before but it bears reminding again. Watch "don't talk to the Police" both the professors and LEO portions.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865#

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912#

or just google don't talk to the police.

 

[wally1120]

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I am glad you didn`t get a bunch of crap from the incident,Like you did the first time. I relly don`t have respect for Fuzz anymore due to the few cases that I have had with the cops. If a cop sees me walking down the road dont avt like you seen me with the gun,Or detain me and I will have your badge by the end of the day.

 

[mikestilly]

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wally1120 wrote:

I am glad you didn`t get a bunch of crap from the incident,Like you did the first time. I relly don`t have respect for Fuzz anymore due to the few cases that I have had with the cops. If a cop sees me walking down the road dont avt like you seen me with the gun,Or detain me and I will have your badge by the end of the day.

That's much easier said then done. There have cops that have murdered people that walked around with their badge for quite some time. There are also cops who've committed crimes who get paid leave of absences. I definitely respect true law abiding cops but just like any profession there are bad ones out there. Thanks to unions they get away with more then they ever would without them.