OC in Alexandria, VA

[livitup]

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I'm sure I'm not alone in that I'm interested in whatever details you can give on the incident itself, not just the eventual resolution. I was under the impression from all the success stories here that local coppers were finally "getting it," but if it took 6 of 'em to straighten out the situation, that's not a good sign.

 

[GlockEm]

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Hey XD Owner,

I can't say I'm surprised that you ran into trouble at the DMV in Alexandria. Did you contact Philip VanCleave of VCDLabout the incident? There was a very similar incident that happened in Hampton, VA that was detailed in a VCDL update of 3/11/2006. I was going to put the link from the VCDL.org, but the archive only goes to 3/20/2006. However, I do the text of that incident from the email:

*************************************************
3. VCDL Kills Illegal Gun Ban at DMV
*************************************************

A few weeks ago one of our members was told by a security guard at the
Department of Motor Vehicles in Hampton that his openly carried
firearm was not allowed.

VCDL's Tidewater area coordinator Ron Lilly then got involved, and
informed both the manager in Hampton and the regional director in
Portsmouth, Ms. Valerie Alexander, that the state code prohibited them
from enforcing any ban on firearms.

When Ms. Alexander explained that the state-wide contract for security
services at DMV prohibited firearms, Ron took it up the ladder to the
Director of DMV's Richmond Headquarters, Mr. David Pierce.

After verifying Ron's information with department attorneys, Mr.
Peirce agreed that DMV has no statutory authority to ban firearms.
Mr. Pierce assured Ron that they will fix the contract, and that he
had coordinated with the training department to ensure security
officers across the state understand that firearms may be legally
carried on DMV property, both openly and concealed.

Thanks Ron!

*************************************************

I hope they resolve this issue for you and give you a deserved apology. Keep us posted about what happens.

​

 

[DoubleR]

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I remember the Hampton incident and the VCDL response. Once again, this type of behavior on the part of both the DMV security and, more so, APD is appalling. What in the heck was APD doing? I'm convinced that we know the Virginia laws better than those that are sworn to uphold them. (Not an LEObash!!!) Not to mention the DMV security guards, that are packing.

As for the old Alexandria gun ban, I remember that, too. Glad that got tossed, along with the "shall not issue".

 

[VApatriot]

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I know one Alexandria police officer, and he is a really great guy. It sure is a shame that there aren't more like him out there.

 

[SicSemperTyrannis]

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XD Owner:

You may want to considern filing a complaint with internal affairs if the officers did or said anything outside of their policy (if you just had a voluntary conversation with them and they were polite and followed their policy, then it may not be worthwhile). This ups the ante, and forces the departmentto investigate, and put the results in writing. Furthermore, if the same officer(s) later does the same thing to someone else, it will be very difficult for them to act as if it was an isolated first-time incident, if they did do anything outside of policy.

Most police departments will be cooperative, but you also could run into problems asking for an "incident report" - for several reasons. It also is possibleno formal written reportwas filed (the officer in my case wrote nothing down whatsoever about our encounter - possibly for his own protection - so all I could get was a copy of his mark-out report, and I had to ask for that specifically by name).

I'd talk to the DMV regional manager and Philip Van Cleave as well, ASAP.

I'm curious what they asked you while you were being questioned for 30 minutes! I'd be careful talking that long without an attorney. Hopefully, you kept your statements simple and direct.

 

[novaccw]

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Guess I got the "good" Alexandria Police Officers when I had my encounter last week. If an officer(s) made me feel as though I was being questioned instead of just having a conversation, I would definetely ask," Am I being detained?" If they said yes, I would ask what the charge was, clam up, and request to speak to an attorney. I would not do this right off the bat because it sends a negative signal, but so does sending six officers to deal with somethingl like this. Ok wait, sending six may not be crazy, but once they get thereand talk to you, they should realize you are not a threat and the "calvary" could leave. I would definetely follow up with this. I too am interested to hear about how it turns out.

 

[XD Owner]

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SicSemperTyrannis wrote:

I'm curious what they asked you while you were being questioned for 30 minutes! I'd be careful talking that long without an attorney. Hopefully, you kept your statements simple and direct.

Even though they had my VA DL and my CHP (which I gave them without them asking for it), they basically asked me most of the questions on their Field Interview Card.

What's your name? How do you pronounce it? Where do you work? How long have you worked there? What is your home phone number? What is your work number? What is your cell number? What is your height? What is your weight? What is your SSN? Where were you born? Can your employer verify that you work there?

They also answered a few of my questions, like why do you need my SSN when you already have my drivers license and can look it up in your computer? Answer: Because it is a question on this Field Contact/Interview Card. He gave me a blank one.

I asked one officer how long he had been on the force. His reply was, and I kid you not, "Long enough."

It took them a while to ask all of these questions because they had to write down my answers. I also know they asked the DMV security guard for a photocopy of my license and CHP. Basically, I believethey were stalling for time to run my name through their systems and see if there were any hits on me

I answered all of their questions and none of them touched me, although they did surround me in a semi-circle. I had to ask one officer to move so I could get a drink from the water fountain.

In general, I like the police because I know they have a tough job and they are there to protect my community, but this incident has really left a bad taste in my mouth. Not even a simple apology for asking me a barrage of questions even though I HAD DONE NOTHING :cuss:WRONG in the DMV waiting room. Let's see what kind of reply I get from the Alexandria Police Department.

Meanwhile, I will keep on packing!

 

[DoubleR]

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Hang in there XD. You did good and gave them more than they needed. It likely was a stall, but the part that frosts me is that you did nothing to warrant that type of reaction from APD. Like you, I agree that an LEO's job is tough andI respect that. No apology nor an explaination as to why you were subjected to those antics. Keep us posted, as I was thinking about your "encounter" since I read it last night. Sounds like a trip to "Dairy Godmothers" is in order.

 

[XD Owner]

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roger that! :dude:

 

[razorblade]

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XD Owner wrote:

I asked one officer how long he had been on the force. His reply was, and I kid you not, "Long enough."

XD Owner, I must admit, you have the patience of a saint. I would like to know why it took six cops to do a job that required perhaps two at the most. I would understand if you were making a scene or being hostile, but damn, you're just standing there. I'm not a fan of cops in general, so I'll keep my comments about that to myself. Nonetheless, I wish the outcome was different for you. Please keep us posted

 

[jimwyant]

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XD Owner wrote:

What's your name? How do you pronounce it? Where do you work? How long have you worked there? What is your home phone number? What is your work number? What is your cell number? What is your height? What is your weight? What is your SSN? Where were you born? Can your employer verify that you work there?

Would it be a violation of the law to refuse to answer these questions? I respect the job that LEOs have to do, and while I am not a fan, am not anti-LE as a rule either. In this particular case, I'm not sure I would have been inclined to be very cooperative. What legal right do they have to ask any of these questions, especially in the absence of any crime?

 

[rabbit994]

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First up, I'm not a lawyer.

Second up, they are welcome to question you to anything they want. You are allowed to refuse to answer anything you want except there is a charge called "Giving false information to avoid procucution (SP)" If your not going to be procucuted, then you don't have to worry about this charge however common sense will tell that refusing to answer basic questions or not provide ID is risky. I would recommend you always provide ID either via plastic card or by providing Name, Address and SSN (if you feel like giving that up, they should be able to find you without it). If you don't feel like dealing with them, you could hand them your DL and say your refusing to answer further questions unless atty is present. It's combative and may cause them to get combative with you but it's an option. (Not my personal way to start a conversation with police)

Third, unless they are detaining you, you can walk away at any time. The simple question of "Are you detaining me?" should be enough. However, most of the time, if a cop is detaining you, your weapon would have been gone and you in handcuffs.

Fourth, it does not take 30 minutes for check. It's quite possible that someone was trying to found out what the law was before they took action.

Fifth, Local cops do a valuable services to community and believe it or not, most of them do support concealed carry (Outside DC). Most of them think open carry isn't the smartest thing to do however. I'm attempting to become an officer myself because this one quote has stay in mind for a while now. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

Sixth, for the love of god, if they decide to arrest you, do not resist. Go peacefully because remember, regardless of how big of tactical ninja you are , they have a gun, a radio and alot of friends with guns. Go downtown then call your lawyer and whoever else you want to call.

 

[razorblade]

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rabbit994 wrote:

regardless of how big of tactical ninja you are, they have a gun, a radio and alot of friends with guns. Go downtown then call your lawyer and whoever else you want to call.

The stereotypical "us law enforcement versus those civilians" mentality.
"We are here to protect you from yourself..."

:?

Anyways, there was no law broken. Even if there was, they should have asked XD owner to either leave his weapon in his vehicle, or leave the premisis. I would choose the latter. Unless he was threatening customers and DMV employees, it should never get to handcuffs anyways. Standing in line, answering questions, and being cooperative does not entitle them to slap handcuffs and haul anyone away.

The badge is not a privilege to break the law.

 

[rabbit994]

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razorblade wrote:

rabbit994 wrote:

regardless of how big of tactical ninja you are, they have a gun, a radio and alot of friends with guns. Go downtown then call your lawyer and whoever else you want to call.

The stereotypical "us law enforcement versus those civilians" mentality.
"We are here to protect you from yourself..."

:?

Anyways, there was no law broken. Even if there was, they should have asked XD owner to either leave his weapon in his vehicle, or leave the premisis. I would choose the latter. Unless he was threatening customers and DMV employees, it should never get to handcuffs anyways. Standing in line, answering questions, and being cooperative does not entitle them to slap handcuffs and haul anyone away.

The badge is not a privilege to break the law.

I never said it was, nor did I say they should have arrested XD Owner, I simply stated had they decided to arrest him, not to resist. Any unlawful arrest is best dealt with lawyers and not on the scene.

Most of cops I've experienced are not out to get you. That have enough who get themselves. Most of them are trying to do their job and I bet the DMV call did not come in "Hey guys, there is guy with a holster gun" they come in as "HOLY CRAP (Insert expletive here) that is a guy waving a gun around"

So they respond Code 1 (light and sirens) with backup then they get there and there is nothing. DMV is at fault for this yes and someone probably got a private reaming as well.

 

[rabbit994]

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XD Owner wrot

Sec. 13-2-4 Carrying loaded firearms.

It shall be unlawful for any unauthorized person to carry a loaded firearm in any public place. (Code 1963, Sec. 41-4),

I don't see the problem with it. Unauthorized to means concealed carry without permit or open carry when your lawfully not allowed to.

 

[TEX1N]

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jimwyant wrote:

XD Owner wrote:

What's your name? How do you pronounce it? Where do you work? How long have you worked there? What is your home phone number? What is your work number? What is your cell number? What is your height? What is your weight? What is your SSN? Where were you born? Can your employer verify that you work there?

Would it be a violation of the law to refuse to answer these questions? I respect the job that LEOs have to do, and while I am not a fan, am not anti-LE as a rule either. In this particular case, I'm not sure I would have been inclined to be very cooperative. What legal right do they have to ask any of these questions, especially in the absence of any crime?

In a legal since the cops can pretty much ask you anything they want to. However, you are generally only required to give them your name and enough info to prove that you are who you say you are (a drivers license is more than enough to do this). Like rabbit994 said, don't lie to the police. If you don't want to give them the frivolous info, then don't (I know I wouldn't). But if you lie to them then they can use that against you, not to mention it could be a crime within itself.

You may be required to give the police more info in other circumstances; i.e. if you are arrested (routine booking questions), if you witness a crime but are not involved (in a bank when it get's robbed), etc.

XD Owner, let us know how the situation turns out and I wish you the best. (Oh yeah, I am not a lawyer and none of this should be considered legal advice.)

 

[XD Owner]

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Follow up to my Open Carry Experience at the Alexandria DMV

Deputy Chief Corle returned my phone call this morning. He said he passed my request to the Dept.’s FOIA Officer for processing. There was no incident report filed since no crime was committed. He is not sure if call logs are exempted from FOIA, so the FOIA Officer will respond to that question. (I wanted to know what exactly the security guard told the police operator.)



The Deputy Chief said that on an average day there are 300,000 people in the city, so if someone reports one person walking around with a gun, they will investigate. They get 70-80,000 calls per year.



He said that the rookie is young and learning but also no policies were violated. Yes, I was being detained so they could check out my ID. The police do not know me, so I got to meet 6 out of 320 officers yesterday. Next time it is likely to be a different officer or officers responding. From their point of view, anyone with a gun is checked out since it could be a criminal or a law-abiding citizen. They have no way of knowing until they check it out.



When asked about open carry by officers, he said that is completely different since they are in uniform and everyone understands why they have a gun. He said he would never go out while off duty wearing jeans with a gun on his hip. He did not believe it to be smart.



He asked if my job (with the Federal government) was why I carried, and I said yes, actually, because I have received death threats in the past, and with the War on Terror, I wanted to be prepared to defend myself if a terrorist decided that a packed DMV waiting room was juicy target. I also said the summer time makes it hard to conceal carry since I am not wearing bulky outer clothing.



We discussed the Alexandria City Code and Virginia statute § 15.2-915 and he admitted I was absolutely right about the state statute rendering invalid the city code Sec. 13-2-4 Carrying loaded firearms



He went on to say that I was perfectly within my right to carry, but to expect to be stopped and questioned every time I go out with a gun on.



I asked that he advise the force about Virginia statute § 15.2-915 and I said I understand that FOIA requests take some time and look forward to receiving it as soon as my request has been processed.



We then amicably ended the call.



Bottom line, I was not arrested or even handcuffed, so the Police Dept. is treating it as a non-incident. I'll post the FOIA response if I feel it is worth sharing.

 

[DoubleR]

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XD, glad you got a response. What concerns me is the quote of, "He went on to say that I was perfectly within my right to carry, but to expect to be stopped and questioned every time I go out with a gun on." That begins to sound like the Henrico County incident, to me.

 

[XD Owner]

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rabbit994 wrote:

XD Owner wrot

Sec. 13-2-4 Carrying loaded firearms.

It shall be unlawful for any unauthorized person to carry a loaded firearm in any public place. (Code 1963, Sec. 41-4),

I don't see the problem with it. Unauthorized to means concealed carry without permit or open carry when your lawfully not allowed to.

Let's turn it around a bit.

It shall be lawful for any authorized person to carry a loaded firearm in any public place. Right?

The word "authorized" implies that a governmental authority (like the city of Alexandria) has to give authority to a person to carry. However, it is every non-prohibited person's inalienable RIGHT to open carry (at least in Virginia. Don't get me started about DC.)

There are already so many laws on the books about who is prohibited from possessing a firearm (loaded or unloaded does not matter), that Alexandria's city code is rendered moot, and as my situation yesterday illustrates, a rookie cop thought I needed to be "authorized" to carry, and this is after I gave my CHP to one of his partners!

In fact, now that I think about it, after presenting my government photo ID and CHP, I should have been released right there!

I'm thinking of making a little card saying my name is ... and per Virginia Statute § 15.2-915 I am authorized to open carry in this area since local laws concerning possession and carrying of firearms and ammunition were rendered invalid on July 1, 2004. Thank you.

Maybe that will shorten my encounters withda law.

 

[XD Owner]

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DoubleR wrote:

"He went on to say that I was perfectly within my right to carry, but to expect to be stopped and questioned every time I go out with a gun on." That begins to sound like the Henrico County incident, to me.

It was not THAT bad, butit was not pleasant either. They did not take away my firearm or ask me to spread my legs and put my hands on the wall, but an officer asked me to step back when I tried to go back to the waiting room. :shock:

I wonder how the police would react if I had told the female officer, "I prefer to sit right here and talk unless of course you are taking me into custody. Are you taking me into custody?" and just keep my arms folded and say it loud enough for a bunch of people around me to hear.