OC vs. CC vs. BG / draw speed

[stainless1911]

Let;s try some reading-comprehension, just for giggles.
I didnt say a thing about some criminals (with more balls than brains) seeking out or targeting anyone. Simply said some arent intimidated/deterred by someone's means of carry-OC/CC/LEO or otherwise. Not all of them are going to run off with soiled pants at the sight of your little .38. They may be inclined instead to engage.

Show me an example.

The only OCer I know of that was ever attacked, was robbed by someone who didnt know that he was armed. That was poor SA for the OCer and the BG.

 

[eye95]

Let;s try some reading-comprehension, just for giggles.
I didnt say a thing about some criminals (with more balls than brains) seeking out or targeting anyone. Simply said some arent intimidated/deterred by someone's means of carry-OC/CC/LEO or otherwise. Not all of them are going to run off with soiled pants at the sight of your little .38. They may be inclined instead to engage.

You specifically mentioned them "engaging" the police.

No point in discussing further. Moving on.

 

[j4l]

You specifically mentioned them "engaging" the police.

No point in discussing further. Moving on.

Yes, as in exchanging shots when fired upon, vs. running off or falling down in a fetal position crying for mommy.
where's this difficult to grasp for you?

 

[Gunslinger]

Last point will be skill. Poor marksmanship skills cancel any perceived advantages.

It doesn't make any difference how fast you can draw if you miss the target--or hesitate to use deadly force. It's the same with the never ending caliber controversey: is a hit with a .38 spcl better than a miss with a .44 Magnum? Accuracy first and foremost, imo, followed by speed, followed by caliber. I've read statistics that indicate BGs tend to be lousy shots--even worse than cops who generally suck. And then there's range to consider. A lot of variables in this hypothetical scenario. And finally, there's will to take a life, even of a criminal who means you no good.

 

[slowfiveoh]

Let;s try some reading-comprehension, just for giggles.
I didnt say a thing about some criminals (with more balls than brains) seeking out or targeting anyone. Simply said some arent intimidated/deterred by someone's means of carry-OC/CC/LEO or otherwise. Not all of them are going to run off with soiled pants at the sight of your little .38. They may be inclined instead to engage.

Your argument, while being weak based solely on the obscurity being presented as the presiding rule, is also totally dismissive of one fact.

We are trying to get more and more people to open carry.

This will obviously have an effect on even the most deranged, who literally can't move more than 30 feet down a street without noticing 4-5 open carriers.

 

[zack991]

Open Holster Draw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCt0ihKzsNE

Concealed Draw long shirt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfrKSeowe5E


I will take open every single time.

 

[j4l]

I think we all prefer open, really.

but-

"Open Holster Draw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCt0ihKzsNE"

Dude's slow. Would have my 1st 230grains entering his face about the time he was clearing the holster.

 

[KBCraig]

Not what Im saying at all-you missed the point completely. Im saying we have this tendancy to project the way WE think/feel/whatever onto how everyone else does. There's a lot of criminals out there who are not deterred by armed folks- being citizens CC or OC, or when confronted- LEOs who are in uniform and OC by nature of their occupation. They do "what they gotta do" regardless.

I'm five months short of the 20 year mark, in a job where I'm surrounded by 1,700 convicted felons every day at work.

I feel comfortable with my grasp of the criminal mindset, thanks.

Let;s try some reading-comprehension, just for giggles.
I didnt say a thing about some criminals (with more balls than brains) seeking out or targeting anyone.

That is exactly what you said. If there's a failure in communication, I do not believe the fault lies with the reader.

Not really disagreeing with you-but..
What does this say of the armed criminal who intentionaly,openly, engages a cop who is in full uniform,and quiet obviously,openly armed?

 

[Gunslinger]

I'm five months short of the 20 year mark, in a job where I'm surrounded by 1,700 convicted felons every day at work.

You must work for the obooba administration.

 

[KBCraig]

You must work for the obooba administration.

Don't remind me.

 

[Yard Sale]

Dude's slow. Would have my 1st 230grains entering his face about the time he was clearing the holster.

Please post your videos.

 

[j4l]

I dont do vids.
1st person engagements only-and by appt. Main street,high noon work for ya?

 

[Dreamer]

The news abounds with stories of CCers who had to draw to defend themselves, because BGs mistook them for just another unarmed, defenseless sheeple...

But until someone can produce a credible story of an OCer who was forced to draw to defend himself against a BG (the event in Milwaukee WI in 2010 nonwithstanding), your whole argument is pointless.

OC is an obvious--and effective--deterrent. BGs are lazy, stupid and cowardly--that's why they are thugs and criminals, and that is why they attack people who appear to be defenseless. But the vast majority of BGs are not so stupid as to attempt to attack someone who is obviously armed.

So asking how much faster an OCer can draw, vs a CCer in the same situation doesn't make sense, because the answer is the CCer will almost ALWAYS draw faster because he will be FORCED to draw, because BGs can easily mistake him for an unarmed sheeple victim, whereas an OCer almost NEVER draws on a BG, because he is, in the eyes of a BG, the WORST possible target he could choose, and so BGs generally leave OCers alone...

 

[stainless1911]

Good point.

The thread was more about point of discussion than tactical advantage in relation to speed. Practiced CC is faster than unpracticed OC, but all things being equal, the OC advantage could be all you need. Let's hope none of us ever has to find out.

 

[amlevin]

Good point.

The thread was more about point of discussion than tactical advantage in relation to speed. Practiced CC is faster than unpracticed OC, but all things being equal, the OC advantage could be all you need. Let's hope none of us ever has to find out.

Don't overlook the manner of concealment. Some garments allow easier access than others. A loose vest is almost no deterrent while a zipped jacket is another story. This applies, practice or not.

 

[slowfiveoh]

Don't overlook the manner of concealment. Some garments allow easier access than others. A loose vest is almost no deterrent while a zipped jacket is another story. This applies, practice or not.

So, would you say that "a loose vest" allows for equitable presentation time to that of OC?

 

[stainless1911]

Don't overlook the manner of concealment. Some garments allow easier access than others. A loose vest is almost no deterrent while a zipped jacket is another story. This applies, practice or not.

That's absolutely correct. I have a winter coat that if I carried concealed under, I might as well have left the gun at home.

 

[slowfiveoh]

Simple question needs a simple answer:

Does any form of garment over the top of your firearm reduce presentation time?

 

[silver]

reduce compared to what? compared to OC I would assume any garment would increase rather than reduce , unless the bulk of the above mentioned winter coat allows you to get your mitts around the grip, a finger in the trigger guard, and rotate it on target completely unobstructed. But that just seems illogical.

 

[amlevin]

So, would you say that "a loose vest" allows for equitable presentation time to that of OC?

For a weapon worn in the same position for both OC and CC, a loose vest doesn't just automatically slow down that "presentation time". At least it doesn't with the vest I wear. Like I said, it depends on the type of garment. Blanket statements don't work.