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OC vs. CC vs. BG / draw speed

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j4l

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In any event-oc/cc or otherwise-what was Cooper's motto? Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas ?
Speed is indeed one of the essential ingredients to a positive outcome.
Anyone ever heard of a slow gunfighter that lived long enough to be remembered?
By itself,no. But the goal should be to train to achieve accurate,disciplined fire-quickly- from whatever mode of carry you have to use.
1st-shot off is essential to the outcome-esp. if like the OP mentions, the BG already has his piece up and ready.
 

Badger Johnson

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Good thread, though a little hard to follow.

One thing to consider is that such things (as a mugging) are very high chaos events. Virtually no two situations are the same. I've read reports of two people being mugged and the BG turns his attention to the male and puts down his HG to tie him up and the female picks up the BG's gun and shoots him.

In my case, since my partner, a 5'4" female is also carrying, if/when the BG is focused on me, she is going to be drawing and shooting. Having a team approach trumps single carry be it OC or CC.

But back on topic, Chris Bird talks about draw speed. He did some timed drills and found he could come on target and shoot in 1.48 seconds, compared to an experienced shooter getting a round off from CC in 1 second. Each shot took him 0.26 seconds at ten feet hitting inside the kill zone (pg 347).

This discussion, though reminds me of the 'my Sensei can beat up your Sensei' arguments that martial artists used to get into before the UFC. Thing is, it's highly chaotic and you just don't know until it happens. What's more important is anticipation, SA and willingness to pull the trigger, ISTM.
 

j4l

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Good thread, though a little hard to follow.

One thing to consider is that such things (as a mugging) are very high chaos events. Virtually no two situations are the same. I've read reports of two people being mugged and the BG turns his attention to the male and puts down his HG to tie him up and the female picks up the BG's gun and shoots him.

In my case, since my partner, a 5'4" female is also carrying, if/when the BG is focused on me, she is going to be drawing and shooting. Having a team approach trumps single carry be it OC or CC.

But back on topic, Chris Bird talks about draw speed. He did some timed drills and found he could come on target and shoot in 1.48 seconds, compared to an experienced shooter getting a round off from CC in 1 second. Each shot took him 0.26 seconds at ten feet hitting inside the kill zone (pg 347).

This discussion, though reminds me of the 'my Sensei can beat up your Sensei' arguments that martial artists used to get into before the UFC. Thing is, it's highly chaotic and you just don't know until it happens. What's more important is anticipation, SA and willingness to pull the trigger, ISTM.

Absolutely. My angle to it all,however, is to train as hard as possible overall for the possibility. Then-one would hope-apply said training to the situation as it presents it self to you. It's really the most one can hope to do-since the details of every situation are going to be different. Gotta be as flexible as possible,and allow for Mr.Murphy to join the party-for or against you-at all times.
But SA/Mindset are def. as important as DVS,carry method and equipment choice.
 

slowfiveoh

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For a weapon worn in the same position for both OC and CC, a loose vest doesn't just automatically slow down that "presentation time". At least it doesn't with the vest I wear. Like I said, it depends on the type of garment. Blanket statements don't work.

That's a lie.

Any time there is a fabric covering your firearm, extra movement is required for retrieval, even if it is to purposefully slip your hand below said loose garment.

The blanket statement does work, because in any case it is flat out true.

You could not, ever, present your firearm faster than somebody of your same draw skill who does not have to worry about the extra movement.

People try to coyly brush off this blatant, factual reality, but it just fails every time.
 

Operator_223

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the reality of the situation below !!

The news abounds with stories of CCers who had to draw to defend themselves, because BGs mistook them for just another unarmed, defenseless sheeple...

But until someone can produce a credible story of an OCer who was forced to draw to defend himself against a BG (the event in Milwaukee WI in 2010 nonwithstanding), your whole argument is pointless.

OC is an obvious--and effective--deterrent. BGs are lazy, stupid and cowardly--that's why they are thugs and criminals, and that is why they attack people who appear to be defenseless. But the vast majority of BGs are not so stupid as to attempt to attack someone who is obviously armed.

So asking how much faster an OCer can draw, vs a CCer in the same situation doesn't make sense, because the answer is the CCer will almost ALWAYS draw faster because he will be FORCED to draw, because BGs can easily mistake him for an unarmed sheeple victim, whereas an OCer almost NEVER draws on a BG, because he is, in the eyes of a BG, the WORST possible target he could choose, and so BGs generally leave OCers alone...

==========================================


I both OC and CC. I vastly prefer OC and the above post by Dreamer is absolutely correct. They are 2 different situations with 2 different psychologies operating underneath.

When you CC --> BG's, like politicians, prefer easy targets and un-armed peasants to prey upon. The BG wont know or realize you are armed until it's basically too late (for them hopefully). They are lazy, they are like lazy tired lions picking off the easiest targets in the herd. They probably dont even realize that they are playing a numbers game... they keep preying on the sheep to get their needed beer and drug money until maybe one day they catch one from a C-store clerk, a homeowner etc. --- a sheep with horns if you will. Its just how these animals live.

It is important for a CC'er to key on the fact when trouble is about to happen. You need the extra time to put your hands in your pants ideally. Yes, you will be FORCED to draw by the very definition of CC, if you cannot avoid the situation in the first place. The BG wont know you are armed until you draw.

It doesnt have to be a high noon style "who's fastest" draw contest. It never happens that way. If you are CC'ing and things start looking creepy, get away from the scene if you can..... walk out of the C-store or move back away from the cash register area at a blind angle, pretend you forgot something or are still shopping and wait a few seconds. If you are pumping gas, try to walk around to the opposite side of the car, give yourself some space and a position advantage if you can.

In short CC forces you to be strategic... keep watching out for something creepy and get the advantage early if you can. It's not hard to do once you know what to look for... but it's not fool proof by any means. You just have to have your radar tuned to what's going on. It's important for CCers to stay tuned in.

I take exception to the trend of licensing a right. By forcing us to have a license, we are forced to subdue ourselves and expose ourselves to the will of politicians. This becomes normalized to where we now have a license and a tax for almost everything.

OC --> Like dreamer said, the BG will see that the sheeple have horns and will go look for a plumper and easier target. I've OC'd in very bad areas and all I got was a lot of serious eyeballs. That big nasty 1911 style .45 out on your hip says "stay away from me Mother F@#er" -- and they do.

I've NEVER personally heard a credible story about how someone tried to grab an OC'ers gun. There might be a couple legit stories out there but Im more than sure it severly tilts in the favor of OC preventing trouble from happening in the first place. No license = no politicians leash.

Exercise a right or it will get flabby and wither away. Which is exactly where we are now regarding the social acceptance of OC. OC was the norm 130 years ago and CC was considered dark and dastardly. That's why they force CC licensure today in fact.

Whether you OC or CC, try to get some professional weapons retention training. Try to get some training to sharpen your "uh oh, here we go..." skills, and then how to get out of a potiential situation (always preferred) or if not, how to strategically position yourself to maximize your success of continued breathing.
--------------
Interestingly enough, I cannot find any laws in my state (louisiana) that says when and when not it is legal to draw a pistol out of the holster. There's no law that I know of that says when you can or cant un-snap your weapon, partially draw your weapon, or even hold it in your hand in a safe manner.

I got my first MWAG call about 6 months ago. I was getting my pistol out of my truck and carried it inside to my apartment. Apparently some lady saw it and freaked. I didnt know anything at all was going on until I went back outside to my truck again about 20 minutes later where I saw a lady talking to a Kenner Police Unit. The lady started frantically pointing to me "thats him that's him"... The officer motioned me over to him (I already knew what was going to happen) and I walked over there and said "Hello Officer" and then I just stood there to see what was going to happen meanwhile the lady kept saying "thats him... he had dat gun walkin' round like dat... my baby saw it". I think the officer, to his credit was trying really hard to not bust out laughing. He calmly told the lady that merely holding or walking with a gun in public was not illegal (even though technically I was on private property due to my rent contract).

Now I get the evil eye and the word's out in the apartment complex "He's gotta gun momma !!" Good !! Leave me alone in peace. thats all I ask for.
 

slowfiveoh

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Let it be known that I am not advocating against the personal choice to CC, merely that you are lying to yourself in a flatulent manner if you truly believe presentation time is "about the same", between the two.
 

j4l

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Im the least qualified here to be a grammar-nazi, but.. it cannot go un-mentioned:

"lying to yourself in a flatulent manner"

Do wha? Self-inflicted Dutch-Ovens of Misinformation, or what?
 
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slowfiveoh

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Im the least qualified here to be a grammar-nazi, but.. it cannot go un-mentioned:

"lying to yourself in a flatulent manner"

Do wha? Self-inflicted Dutch-Ovens of Misinformation, or what?

Try:

"Pompously or portentously overblown" ;)

But back on topic, Chris Bird talks about draw speed. He did some timed drills and found he could come on target and shoot in 1.48 seconds, compared to an experienced shooter getting a round off from CC in 1 second. Each shot took him 0.26 seconds at ten feet hitting inside the kill zone (pg 347).

I find it interesting that one of the directors of the Texas Concealed Handgun Association, reports that an experienced shooter can get a round off from CC "in 1 second".

#1. Yeah, right bud. You mean the "experienced shooter" slapped his boogerhook on the trigger through multiple layers of clothes and it just happened to go off, right? That's likely how he came up with the "Less than 1 second from CC" junk. Either that or his hand was already in this garment, hand on firearm.

#2.Chris Bird is about average on draw speed, from that claim. There are faster from an OC position.
 
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j4l

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Try:

"Pompously or portentously overblown" ;)



I find it interesting that one of the directors of the Texas Concealed Handgun Association, reports that an experienced shooter can get a round off from CC "in 1 second".

#1. Yeah, right bud. You mean the "experienced shooter" slapped his boogerhook on the trigger through multiple layers of clothes and it just happened to go off, right? That's likely how he came up with the "Less than 1 second from CC" junk. Either that or his hand was already in this garment, hand on firearm.

#2.Chris Bird is about average on draw speed, from that claim. There are faster from an OC position.

That quick to brush off the possibility of training,or the capabilities of others?
It depends on a number of factors-what method of CC the shooter is using,what they are wearing,and how much effort they put into practicing from both of these.
Why the assumption every one is dressed the same,carrying the same way,and only physically capable of the same levels of activities?

If you have any doubts that some folks can do this-try checking out Israeli Shin Bet operatives going through their routine drills.
They practice the living hell out of not only concealed-carry,but drawing the sidearm unloaded from concealment, and racking the slide on the draw-then putting a mozambigue or an el presedente routine into the BG.
 

slowfiveoh

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That quick to brush off the possibility of training,or the capabilities of others?
It depends on a number of factors-what method of CC the shooter is using,what they are wearing,and how much effort they put into practicing from both of these.

In any case, the firearm is covered by clothing, making retrieval one step further from from the ease of OC.

It is so utterly silly to me that proponents of OC can't admit this.

I don't hold any angst for someone who chooses to CC. I am merely stating that the act of doing so, is in fact, in any which way you try to spin it, going to be de facto slower than OC.

Nothing more, nothing less.



Why the assumption every one is dressed the same,carrying the same way,and only physically capable of the same levels of activities?

I never assumed any of what you are projecting onto me. I am specifying that in comparable conditions, with an individual who is proficient with both, OC will always be faster.

If "Jimmy" elects to OC his pistol in a back mount holster, "Jimmy" is still going to be faster retrieving that firearm, than he would be retrieving it from the same position, under any form of clothing.

If you have any doubts that some folks can do this-try checking out Israeli Shin Bet operatives going through their routine drills.
They practice the living hell out of not only concealed-carry,but drawing the sidearm unloaded from concealment, and racking the slide on the draw-then putting a mozambigue or an el presedente routine into the BG.

Can you provide me with a video of said operatives? Also, I am betting they carry the same pistol the Spetsnaz do, which racks out of the holster.
 

slowfiveoh

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Much like our Det.-D boys, no, there's not going to be "links" or vids of actual Shin Bet ops.
There's a ton of other outfits though that train in the technique, though.
This one-crappy vid- and the it's at training speeds -but close as your going to get.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgmHYkqe78w&feature=related

Good video. Looks like good tactics. Looks like good training.

All of it, however, is displaying compromised presentation, as well as no outward deterrence.

I am sure I don't need to display videos of open holster draw?
 

j4l

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Not at all. But again-keep in mind- that was all at training speeds, and in choreographed activity for the vid. Not quiet close to the real deal-but gives a rough peak.
Dont take my word for it though-take Shin Bet's track record.
Find a recent Palestinian immigrant-utter the words Shin Bet-watch what happens to their bowels. The street cred-the rep- is well deserved indeed.
 

slowfiveoh

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Not at all. But again-keep in mind- that was all at training speeds, and in choreographed activity for the vid. Not quiet close to the real deal-but gives a rough peak.
Dont take my word for it though-take Shin Bet's track record.
Find a recent Palestinian immigrant-utter the words Shin Bet-watch what happens to their bowels. The street cred-the rep- is well deserved indeed.

It's kind of pointless to point to success of a unit/operative as substantiation though when one can't watch them.

I mean, right?

You're asking me to take the word of a "CC Presentation Pro" on behalf of the Shin Bet, of which neither you nor I have likely ever seen draw from a concealed position.
 

j4l

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Yup.
Ever seen gravity? It sure is there,though, if you slip off a ladder.
Ever seen Det.-D. in an actual take-down? ST-6? Nope. Never will either.Do you have any doubts of their shooting capabilities? I doubt it.
 

Badger Johnson

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To me the best possible carry is a BUG in the pocket, finger off trigger. You have the longest time to make a decision and the BG does not know you have him in your sights.

It can be problematic to be in this condition, but if you can anticipate danger and get prepped it works well.
 

slowfiveoh

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Yup.
Ever seen gravity? It sure is there,though, if you slip off a ladder.
Ever seen Det.-D. in an actual take-down? ST-6? Nope. Never will either.Do you have any doubts of their shooting capabilities? I doubt it.

This is such a terrible comment I don't even know where to start.

Oh by the way, what do you think the draw speed is from open carry on these Shin bet operatives?

Were we to actually be able to see these individuals, I can assure you their draw speed from OC would be faster.

You're dancing like a chimpanzee around reality, and I think it's funny.
 

j4l

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This is such a terrible comment I don't even know where to start.

Oh by the way, what do you think the draw speed is from open carry on these Shin bet operatives?

Were we to actually be able to see these individuals, I can assure you their draw speed from OC would be faster.

You're dancing like a chimpanzee around reality, and I think it's funny.



Dunno. At a loss as to how much further I can dumb it down for you,really.
There's only so much that can be said on the topic on a public forum, which likely explains the silence of at least another dozen folks on here who know precisely what Im speaking of.
It's just one of those things,chief. Not every thing is "linked" or in a form one can "cite" for the ignorant. They either know it,understand it and get it-or they dont.

On a positive note, unless you become active in certain Islamic activities, you'll likely never have to find out the hard way.And that truly is about the most gentle way I can put it for you.
 
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slowfiveoh

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Dunno. At a loss as to how much further I can dumb it down for you,really.
There's only so much that can be said on the topic on a public forum, which likely explains the silence of at least another dozen folks on here who know precisely what Im speaking of.
It's just one of those things,chief. Not every thing is "linked" or in a form one can "cite" for the ignorant. They either know it,understand it and get it-or they dont.

On a positive note, unless you become active in certain Islamic activities, you'll likely never have to find out the hard way.And that truly is about the most gentle way I can put it for you.

You can't admit you are citing fantasy that you can't substantiate?

You are aware I am prior military yes?
You are aware I have served in limited exposure with SF forces yes?

Sorry bud, your argument is really weak.

You are trying to point at an elite espionage/spy unit of a highly active conflict as some sort of evidence of CC superiority or minimalistic presentation time. The argument fails because of the sole dedication to training that these operatives have, as well as the premise of their "lightning quick CC presentation", which you can't substantiate.

You merely speculate that in their operations, they lightning-whip their pistols out, rack the slide, and engage enemy targets.

What you utterly fail to understand, is that in all likelihood, none of them are doing so under the "Im a ninja" basis that CC'ers dream about, where they have a armed, focused criminal bearing down on them for their valuables or belongings, and one unwarranted or unrequested movement could end up with a round in your brain, yet they are going to duress fumble for their firearm like it's some sort of counter ambush.

The Shin Bet likely have time to retrieve anyways, and so long as you can provide no proof, your commentary is as epically telling as taking a piss in the pacific is to the oceans Ph levels.

I would wager, not a single Shin Bet could outdraw who is probably the epitome of open holster draw, Bob Munden. Then again, you will make allusions as to how "We will never know", all while claiming the Shin Bet are a living example of efficient CC presentation.


You see j4l, every part of the draw, from the initial approach to the firearm, the draw from the holster, and end presentation, can be scientifically measured as it is a process of motion. Introducing extra steps or barriers to the process, invariably increases the amount of time taken. It is simple, scientific fact.

This is such a dumb conversation on your part, because you are trying like hell to use an example of an operational spy unit, who may or may not have to quickly present from CC (You can't verify this either way), as some form of example of how quickly one can draw from said position. Then, if I say something contradictory, you will tell me how I am lucky because I choose not to indulge myself in "Islamic affairs", necessitating their response.

It's childish to be perfectly straight with you.

You should probably try using actual examples that can be measured and gauged by everybody.

Naturally however, were you to do that, you would come to the same conclusion everybody else with half a brain has. CC, while your choice and I respect that, is always going to be slower than OC.
 
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