OC

[rysa]

imported post

I've got a few comments.

Firstly, great job to the OP. Well handled; appropriate behavior and responses and I'm glad things worked out as they did. I hope that, if confronted with a similar situation, I handle it as well.

One thing I have learned from this post and the responses is how far the lines of morale and legal obligation have spread. I realize that the OP was only legally obligated to call 911 to report a disturbance that he or may or may not have believed was physically violent; but would any of you really stand still and watch a person being beat up? Assuaging your conscience by telling yourself you fulfilled your legal obligation?

If it were my wife/daughter/friend in a similar situation and I knew there was a person who could have helped but didn’t, that person and I would be having a long talk he wouldn’t like much. How anyone could darecallthemselves a good citizen while standing by and watching another being attacked and waiting for the "good guys" to show up I’ll never know.

Some of you may disagree, may say that your life is worth more or that you don’t want to be involved. No one could argue that with you, it’s a personal choice. But, I hope someone with a little more honor and courage is around when it’s your ass in the frying pan, or you might be rethinking your position a little.

As persons who carry firearms for protection it is not our duty to carry out full investigations of crimes or detain those persons who choose to commit misdemeanor offenses; others have taken up that charge and it is their responsibility. I, and I know many others were brought up to believe some variation of "those who have the ability to act, have a duty to act" and I hope that I can carry out that responsibility as well as the OP.

Off soapbox. In short, well done to the OP, to hell with those of you who don’t have enough courage to do what he did.

 

[just_a_car]

imported post

Bear 45/70 wrote:

esstac wrote:

badger wrote:

hero

This is one thing I am not, I think people who step up and help others are all heros in my book. But when it happened to me I do not think I am, I did what I believed was right and what I wish would happen more often. I think instead of acting like a Hero I acted like a human being and how one should act

To put that in perspective all the men an women who gave there lives on 9/11 and those who went into the buildings were not heros to me, they were humans helping others in time of need and honoring there life as well as others.

By definition a hero is someone that does heroic things and never thinks of himself as a hero.

+1.

What you did is commendable and if you don't consider yourself a hero, at the very least the actions you took last night were 'hero-like'.

Both your actions and your humbleness are commendable. You have my respect and admiration. I only hope that I could act the same in a similar situation. As JL stated, the fact that the responding officers made no allusion to your firearm speaks volumes to them also thinking you did the right thing.

 

[ghosthunter]

imported post

Seems like the Leos gave you the thumbs up. I would like to think I would do the same. Monday Morning quarterbacking is a risky business.

That could have been anyone of us or our loved ones. Too many people in the big cities will watch this happen and someone gets killed because no one would step up.

As far as why was she not packing, who knows or cares. I really think that there are folks who should never ever own a gun or pack. I know a couple we all do.

 

[lprgcFrank]

imported post

Good job Esstac!

As many others have said - I hope that someone like you is around if any of my family members were in a similar situation!

 

[John Hardin]

imported post

Misguided Child wrote:

I feel that as an armed citizen in a free society you have moral/ethical duty to help stop crime in any way you can.

I wouldn't go quite that far - bear in mind how many innocuous things are made into crimes through moronic, intrusive laws. I for example have no moral or ethical duty to apprehend someone trying sell vibrating plastic marital aids. (Gotta love the Texas legislature... :lol

If you amend that to say "help stop crimes of violence" then I will agree 100%.

--

 

[Alwayspacking]

imported post

Just like I figured, I pull a gun on a guy fighting my brother in my own home and I get bashed, OP_ pulls a gun on a drunk woman, (a stranger) being beat by a guy, he is a hero. :uhoh:

 

[deepdiver]

imported post

Good job, eestac! You defused the situation, summoned the authorities and as soon as the guy ran off and the threat ended you holstered your firearm without needing to fire a shot. I only hope that I can be as clear headed and reasonable if ever faced with a similar situation.

ETA: While I understand why your dad chased the guy, that was IMO the only bad decision in the story. As someone else pointed out, he could have been killed or seriously injured. You ended the confrontation and when the guy ran off it became a matter for the police to catch him, not you or your family.

 

[carhas0]

imported post

Alwayspacking wrote:

Just like I figured, I pull a gun on a guy fighting my brother in my own home and I get bashed, OP_ pulls a gun on a drunk woman, (a stranger) being beat by a guy, he is a hero. :uhoh:

If I remember correctly, your story was different. It was not a grown man beating a woman in a car, it was some kids having a scuffle. This situation was likely a felony assault, yours was likely not.

 

[Alwayspacking]

imported post

sean-1286 wrote:

Alwayspacking wrote:

Just like I figured, I pull a gun on a guy fighting my brother in my own home and I get bashed, OP_ pulls a gun on a drunk woman, (a stranger) being beat by a guy, he is a hero. :uhoh:

If I remember correctly, your story was different. It was not a grown man beating a woman in a car, it was some kids having a scuffle. This situation was likely a felony assault, yours was likely not.

yes i agree with you, but i felt it was the right thing to do at the time just as he did...

But I do say he did well...

now he has to make sure they guy does not returnwith a chip on his shoulder.

 

[911Boss]

imported post

esstac- you are too be commended for your actions. While what you did may not have been smart, it wasbrave and it was self-less.

Heros do not act out of intelligence or wisdom. Heros act out of need and with concernfor others more than concern for self.

Anyone who would fault you for it is a fool and and likely a coward as well.

Years ago I intervened in a DV on Lake City Way in Seattle at about 3 am while coming home from work. I witnessed a man beating a woman who was on the ground. He was screaming at her to get up and keep walking. Both were drunk, evidently walking home, and she got to the point where she didn't want to walk any longer.

I called the cops, and while waiting for them, I called out for him to stop. Thankfully he did. I did not draw, but had he come at me or continued to beat the woman, I likely would have.

The victim was a stereotypical battered woman (beaten several times before by the b'friend), she refused to testify, didn't show up for court (was conveniently out of town) and his attorney had a notarized statement from her "admitting" she drove him to that behavior by her actions.

This ass-bag's attorney actually argued that his client was merely "convincing" the victim to go home with him for her own safety. He was concerned that if he left her, something mighthappen to her. His "convincing" her consisted of several kicks to the shoulders, back, and head.

His attorney was pretty surprised when I showed up to testify. He was expecting a slam dunk dismissal. Prosecutor was quite glad to see me, since without my testimony he had no hope for a conviction. Attorney douch-nozzle's first mistake was to waive a jury trial and let the Judge decide the case. The prosecutor asked me to describe the kicks. I told the judge it would be easier to demonstrate than to describe and asked if that would be ok. Over the attorney's objection, the Judge said to go ahead.

Defense's worst mistake was to try question my "experience" and suggesting I didn't really "understand" whatI hadwitnessed. From the police report he knew where I worked. He pointed out that as a 911 operator I didn't really get to "see" assaults, I just talked to people on the phone about them. He suggested that someone not used to seeing a "minor" altercation might mistake it for something more serious. I told himI didn't think that was the case. He finished with some smarmy comment about how many other times such "misunderstandings" have occured.

The prosecutor redirected and asked me if Ihad any first-hand "experience" with assaults and/or people being kicked. I'll never forget the look on the shyster's face when I mentioned my 9 years of active duty in the Marines, my share of bar-room brawls, and about 12 years of playing, coaching, and refereeing soccer.

The Judge made a snide comment to the attorney along the lines of me being "well-qualified" to render an opinion. I think it was pretty much sealed at that point. Guy was convicted of DV Aslt, got some suspended jail time and ordered to anger management classes. Oh, and has now lost any rights to own or possess a firearm.

For all I know she is still with him. I don't care, that isher choice. He or someone else may have killed her by now for all I know. What I do know is it didn't happen that night. If it had, I could never forgive myself for letting it.

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

 

[Misguided Child]

imported post

John Hardin wrote:

Misguided Child wrote:

I feel that as an armed citizen in a free society you have moral/ethical duty to help stop crime in any way you can.

I wouldn't go quite that far - bear in mind how many innocuous things are made into crimes through moronic, intrusive laws. I for example have no moral or ethical duty to apprehend someone trying sell vibrating plastic marital aids. (Gotta love the Texas legislature... :lol

If you amend that to say "help stop crimes of violence" then I will agree 100%.

--

I don't stop at crimes of violence because of all the daily theft and fraud I see. I can see your point about absurd laws but any crime that has a victim I can identify I will try to stop, or testify about. I don't think I need to apprehend any one. That is the LEO's job. But I would be there to testify to help keep it from happening again.

 

[Adreniline]

imported post

Wow, I commend you for your actions (and I can't imagine the adrenaline levels in your body when you drew your gun!).


But how can some think 'he didn't analyze the situation enough'?

The times that 'need to be analyzed' in self defense are often the times that give you little or no time to think - he did the right thing.

 

[Alwayspacking]

imported post

After Action Review :
At any point did you take your weapon off of safe? Also now at looking back at this situation, if this would have escalated and he pulled a gun on you, do you think you had all the equipment and training needed to neutralize the threat?

AlsoYou wife did a very good job informing the police you had a license to carry.

 

[MetalChris]

imported post

Esstac, you did good my man. I wish there were more people like you in society these days.

 

[Nosrac]

imported post

I've pondered this a while and I think you did a very good job handling the situationespecially consideringthe split second decision making you had to do right then and there.

 

[esstac]

imported post

I carry a Glock 17(my wife a 19)

When I did draw I never thought about the draw, in fact I was actually wearing my wifes serpa holster at the time, a holster I have only recently been trying out as all my other holsters are regular kydex or leather. I have been giving this holster a go for the retention as I have not been to keen on my level 1 holsters and OC(I have 4 serpas I am ordering next week) I have about 2 weeks under my belt with the serpa and surprising enough the finger lock was ano issue even with limited use of the holster, it was probably my cleanest/fastest draw.

I was also carrying without the Glock chambered, something I never do but around home. As I had been home all day and this is unusual for me to pick my wife up from work I never chambered a round when I left. Over the years I have practiced drawing and racking the slide but was never 100% on this mod of carry, If I leave the house I chamber a round but this time I did not. I remember thinking if my weapon was chambered as I drew for a split second and mid draw I chambered a round and didn't miss a beat. Again even doing this I think this was the cleanest draw I have ever performed other then thinking I had to rack the slide no thought went into it.

I kept my finger off the trigger the entire time. I do say everything I have learned over the years was instant and not much thought put into it as I drew. This goes hand in hand with how I have thought over the years on if I could actualy use my gun if needed, I did not hesitate drawing and if needed I would have fired. Fireing never even came into my mind and with his actions I am glad he kept his cool and did nothing else but if he did I think pulling the trigger would have been as instinctual as drawing.

I have had a day now and have gone over this many times with my wife and buddies, I think this senario has played out in my head many times over even waking up dreaming of it :?

They were parked under the lights from the building, this aided big time as I could see everything plain as day for 2 in the morning. My main focus was on his hands the entire time, I still have those hands burned in my mind even now, my secondary focus was on both of them, even though she was the victim from what I could tell I kept her in the picture as well. Even when he had fled and she was in my week hand arm I kept my weapon away from here, my biggest issue was reholstering and I was trying to do it in a rush to get it secured, my untucked Tshirt was in the holster gap and required me getting it moved to complete the reholster.

My wife did let 911 know I was armed and had drew and not sure if I stated it earlier but when me and the Gal were sitting on the curb and the first Officer arrived she went to talk with him and I told her to let him know about me being armed in case he wasn't told. I am still quite pleased how the Officers handled it with never even mentioning let alone I never cought them looking, they did stand on my strong side when they talked with me though. I think this has to do allot with the incidents and training bulletins in this area so a big thanks to those who have led the way I will be filing a report this week on the 2 Officers who responded, they were very proffesional and deserve a high 5.

When it comes to how I analyzed the situation it went on many levels I think. At first we thought we were dealing with drunks and I asked the first time for someone to call 911, when he saw there was a fight in progress in the car I said it again and my wife was looking for the phone and at this time I felt it prudent to go down and get a better view of what was happening. As I was leaving the apartment and my wife yelled out it was a man beating on a woman I then double timed it to get to the bottom corner so I could see. When I got to the corner and rounded it and saw the guy ontop of the Gal in the car beating her and at the same time dening her exit of the vehicle is when everything I have learned or trained for took over.


My dad is big into firearms and this is where I get it from, my Mom has her own firearms and was a supervisor at a security company for 8 years or so and they had to qualify on the seattle PD range once a year and she always outshot the retired deputies and officers under her yes she packed heat and wore combat boots. This was in the 80's when the CH47's were stationed at Everett. That night was the first time I have OCed in front of them, normaly its CC for me and they approve of that but are kinda leary about the OC part. My dad even asked if I had planned on wearing my gun in the open on wednesday to the strike sanction and family day for there union, witch I wont be

 

[amlevin]

imported post

Karma:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

A concept inHinduism which explainscausality through a system where beneficial effects are derived from past beneficial actions and harmful effects from past harmful actions.

----------------------------------------------

If on believes in Karma then Esstac will certainly benefit from his actions during this incident.

By the same token, those who believe as Ohio Patriot will also receive their just rewards.

There is certainly no obligation for one to take action when there is no direct threat to themselves, merely to some other defenseless person. The difference is that in this case someone acted and nobody was seriously injured. To allow it to play out uninterrupted could have lead to a far different outcome.

Ohio Patriot-- If you aren't willing to stand up for someone else when they are in danger, who do you expect to come to your aid when it's your turn?

 

[TechnoWeenie]

imported post

Ohio Patriot wrote:

esstac wrote:

I wasn't going to sit and do nothing.  About the same time I hit the door my wife screamed it was a guy beating on a gal.....

I hit mach 5 down the hall and flew down the stairs at this point.

What you did was foolish, IMO. Running down there and confronting them put you in considerable danger. You should have stayed in the apartment and dialed 911. That would have been the smart thing to do.

He didn't do the 'safe' thing..... He did the RIGHT thing...

We're not police officers, we're not here to enforce the laws... But we are human, and human nature is to help those in need.. You sit there and tell me you'd be OK with yourself 'letting it go' for 5 minutes until the police arrived, to later find out she was beaten to death....

 

[trailblazer2003]

imported post

First off, good job for sticking up for the little guy/gal. You made a tough decison that most don't ever want to have to make, and you helped a person in need. I can only hope that if confronted with an incident that I will assist to my best abilities as you did.

TechnoWeenie wrote

We're not police officers, we're not here to enforce the laws... But we are human, and human nature is to help those in need.. You sit there and tell me you'd be OK with yourself 'letting it go' for 5 minutes until the police arrived, to later find out she was beaten to death....

I think the father beating his son in CA, and the hit and run in OH speak words for what kind of society we have become. People just don't want to get invloved whether it be selfishness, pure fear, or just plain ignorance. The anti's always equate guns and the old west negativley. But at least you could count on someone to cover your ass back in the old west.

 

[neddis]

imported post

He didn't do the 'safe' thing..... He did the RIGHT thing...

Heck yes! I totally agree with this statement.

I am glad to hear the LEOs didn't give you any trouble for what you did. Like everyone else, I hope I never end up in this situation. If I do, I can only hope I can handle it as well as you did.

Again... really impressed with how the officers handled your involvement in the whole ordeal.