One In the Hole?

[heresolong]

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One of the advantages of having carried a revolver for fifteen years before getting an auto is that I am perfectly comfortable with carrying a round in the chamber. Didn't even occur to me once I bought the auto (Ruger KP345) NOT to shove in the magazine and pull the slide back to chamber that first round.

[Probably Off Topic] So on the decocker issue, how is having a decocker only pistol different from just leaving the safety off with the pistol decocked?

 

[Agent 47]

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heresolong wrote:

[Probably Off Topic] So on the decocker issue, how is having a decocker only pistol different from just leaving the safety off with the pistol decocked?

Safeties have a bad habit of engaging or disengaging during carry, with a decocker instead of a safety you always know that you pull the trigger it will go off. With a safety you expect it to be on it may be off or you expect it to be off and it may be on. I always prefer pistols ( aside from single actions) without traditional safeties. I have had so many people come into my shop looking fora gun with a safety because "they have kids in the house" people place undue faith in safeties and that leads to ND's at best and negligent deaths at worst.

 

[tarzan1888]

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jonnyjeeps wrote:

This may seem like a silly question but do mostof youcarry, concealed or open, with one in the hole ready to fire? I ask because I had this strange uncomfortable feeling the other day when I loaded my pistol cocked and locked it and remembered there was no manual trigger safety on it(SA XD). Obviously if the need arises to use the gun it will take seconds more to cock it as well as two hands, which in the wrong situatuation may prove detrimental. But on the other hand it does feel a little less safe beimg ready to fire with automatic safeties. Any input or opinion would be appreciated.

It is true that it took me a while to get comfortable with one in the pipe, butI regularly care one of two guns as my main carry piece. A SA 1911 A1 GI, cocked and locked, and a Taurus 617 .357 magnum revolver The revolver has no manual safety at all and the 1911 does have an external safety.



I often fly into Salt Lake City on business and there is a nuance to their law that I like. They define an un-loaded gun as a gun without a cartridge in the firing position. In a revolver that is no round under the hammer or in the cylinder 1 rotation down and for an auto loader that is no round in the chamber.

If you don't have one in the hole, you are carrying an un-loaded gun. Isn't that kind of an expansive rock?



Tarzan

 

[BluesBear]

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tarzan1888 wrote:

They define an un-loaded gun as a gun without a cartridge in the firing position. In a revolver that is no round under the hammer or in the cylinder 1 rotation down

Does the law actually state it that way? Or does it only say in any firing position? Can you please show us that law?

Iconsider ALL cartridges in a revolver to be in firing position as long as the cylinder is inside the frame.

According to the way you phrased it, the round under the hammer is NOT in the firing position. So according to that logic/law, having one under the hammer would not be considered unloaded since ALL revolvers rotate their cylinder one position before firing. So to be considered unloaded the next chamber in rotation must be the empty one.

However, I, personally, would still consider any revolver with only one empty chamber as loaded. You can pull the trigger twice faster than you can rack a slide.

 

[tarzan1888]

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BluesBear wrote:

tarzan1888 wrote:

They define an un-loaded gun as a gun without a cartridge in the firing position. In a revolver that is no round under the hammer or in the cylinder 1 rotation down

Does the law actually state it that way? Or does it only say in any firing position? Can you please show us that law?

Iconsider ALL cartridges in a revolver to be in firing position as long as the cylinder is inside the frame.

According to the way you phrased it, the round under the hammer is NOT in the firing position. So according to that logic/law, having one under the hammer would not be considered unloaded since ALL revolvers rotate their cylinder one position before firing. So to be considered unloaded the next chamber in rotation must be the empty one.

However, I, personally, would still consider any revolver with only one empty chamber as loaded. You can pull the trigger twice faster than you can rack a slide.

What I gave you was the interpretation of the code. Here is the actual code.



76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.

(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

Amended by Chapter 328, 1990 General Session



Tarzan

 

[larz]

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SIGguy229 wrote:

sv_libertarian wrote:

When I carry my P89 there is always one in the pipe with the safety one. I can sweep the safety off as I draw, I may start carrying with the safety off, but mainly worry about having to use my weapon and having some dumbass prosecutor make a big deal about "the safety being off" The damn thing is there for my safety not the safety of the person I am pointing the gun at.

When I carry my revolver, the condition speaks for itself.



Steve

Get SIG--don't have to worry about a "safety"

I carry my P220 SAO cocked and locked

 

[Wheelgunner]

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Back in my Automatic days, I had a couple of scares I should relate. I was carrying in one of those butt pack pouches and after a couple of days I pulled out the weapon (Detonics CombatMaster) and the mag drops uncermoniously on the floor! Evidently my keys in the front pocket had punched the button, turning my little friend into a one shot derringer. I finally bought a new mag button, installed a extra power mag spring and filed the new button flush with the frame. Never happened again.

The second was a early Astra A-80 in 45 ACP with the mag release in the butt.It dropped while I was standing with a friend on the street,disabling the guneven with a round in the chamber!Evidently my arm or side or shirt had brushed the release just right. I sold it the next day.

Now a carry a wheelgun with all chambers stoked.

 

[Wheelgunner]

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Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.


Wow. Talk about the "operative word"! A man with a S&W 29 with 4 in the merrygoround would have a legally unloaded weapon so long as the two empties were next to each other and the first beneath the hammer and the second clocked on right (Smith's clock counter clockwise). Bet that law was written in the 1800's for single actions.

 

[Right Wing Wacko]

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So does this make a Semi-Auto in condition-3 an UNLOADED weapon?

Two operations would be required to fire.. 1. Rack the slide, 2. Pull the trigger.

 

[just_a_car]

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Right Wing Wacko wrote:

So does this make a Semi-Auto in condition-3 an UNLOADED weapon?

Two operations would be required to fire.. 1. Rack the slide, 2. Pull the trigger.

With the way it's written, I'd say yes. Unfortunately, that doesn't apply to WA.

IANAL.

 

[BluesBear]

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Wheelgunner wrote:

Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.


Wow. Talk about the "operative word"! A man with a S&W 29 with 4 in the merrygoround would have a legally unloaded weapon so long as the two empties were next to each other and the first beneath the hammer and the second clocked on right (Smith's clock counter clockwise). Bet that law was written in the 1800's for single actions.

Why do you bet it was written in the 1800s? Itseems to me thatlaw was written by someone who was basically ignorant about revolvers.The law says nothing about the chamber under the hammer.Only thenext chamber in rotation is in the firing position. So there's nothing there that says you need more than one empty chamber in a revolver's cylinder.

 

[gregma]

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Right Wing Wacko wrote:

So does this make a Semi-Auto in condition-3 an UNLOADED weapon?

Two operations would be required to fire.. 1. Rack the slide, 2. Pull the trigger.

If it were simply two separate actions. Then even a semi with a safety would meet the requirements of two actions.

1. Turn safety off.
2. Pull the trigger.

 

[carhas0]

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...Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired...

Because the law says "any mechanism once," as opposed to "any one mechanism," it seems that operating multiple different mechanisms, say satefy and trigger, once each would mean the gun was loaded. With this interpretation, an auto (with or without a safety) with a loaded magazine but empty chamber would still be loaded because you have to rack the slide (mechanism one, worked one time) and pull the trigger (mechanism two, worked one time). In that case there are mulitple mechanisms, each worked once. Also with this interpretation, a revolver would have to have two empty cylinders, the one under the hammer and the next one to be under the hammer if it is SA/DA, but only the next one in the cylinder if it is DAO.

IANAL, just another perspective on the wording from a techincal standpoint.

 

[joeroket]

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The way I interpret it is that if you can use any mechanism on the gun one time and have the round fire then it is a loaded weapon but under no circumstance are you allowed to have a round in the chamber.

 

[Wheelgunner]

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Why do you bet it was written in the 1800s? Itseems to me thatlaw was written by someone who was basically ignorant about revolvers.The law says nothing about the chamber under the hammer.Only thenext chamber in rotation is in the firing position. So there's nothing there that says you need more than one empty chamber in a revolver's cylinder.


The first part of the law as posted by the poster says:

(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.

This says to me that a revolver cannot have a cartridge under the firing pin.

Further; a cocked single action or double actionin a holster is verboten. The second part talks about the next chamber.

Look, I'm not trying to start a piss contest, I really don't know anything about Utah law, but the awkwardness of this law reminds me of the alcohol laws here in Washington (Our "Blue laws") where at one time churches held so much sway and so manymen drank to excess thatlaws were passed to restrict the sale of alcohol to specific times so they would have time to be in church. Unthinkable now.

More importantly, the gun law we are enjoying right now, the right to open carry is guaranteed by the Constitution of this State, but also coded in RCW's written long ago. Can you imagine the legislature today codifying the open carry of handguns, the right of all Men to possess guns in any form were the Constitution written today?!

 

[expvideo]

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sean-1286 wrote:

...Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired...

Because the law says "any mechanism once," as opposed to "any one mechanism," it seems that operating multiple different mechanisms, say satefy and trigger, once each would mean the gun was loaded. With this interpretation, an auto (with or without a safety) with a loaded magazine but empty chamber would still be loaded because you have to rack the slide (mechanism one, worked one time) and pull the trigger (mechanism two, worked one time). In that case there are mulitple mechanisms, each worked once. Also with this interpretation, a revolver would have to have two empty cylinders, the one under the hammer and the next one to be under the hammer if it is SA/DA, but only the next one in the cylinder if it is DAO.

IANAL, just another perspective on the wording from a techincal standpoint.

I believe you are misinterpreting the law. I don't think any judge or jury would rule it that way. The law is clear enough to me.

 

[Bravo_Sierra]

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I carry my Glock19 charged always.

 

[althor]

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BluesBear wrote:

Why do you bet it was written in the 1800s? Itseems to me thatlaw was written by someone who was basically ignorant about revolvers.The law says nothing about the chamber under the hammer.Only thenext chamber in rotation is in the firing position. So there's nothing there that says you need more than one empty chamber in a revolver's cylinder.

It is my opinion (take it for what its worth)that you have misinterpreted the term 'firing position' as it relates to Utah law. I believe that the round under the hammer is in the firing position whether its the next round to go off or 6th in line. Afterall, what position will it be in when it actually goes off?

If it were as you suggest, then there would be no need for #2 below as it would be redundant.

That is howit was taught to me, and supposedly those were guidelines given tomy instructor... from what authorities I couldn't say.

The whole thing could be cleared up by using the term chamber instead of firing position... maybe... I guess a cylinder is just a group of chambers...

Anyway, opinions vary but neither yours nor mine are going to count for much when it really matters.



:edited: But that is for Utah, I am completely ignorant of Washington laws regarding this.

76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.

(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

 

[just_a_car]

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Well, I made what I consider a very hard decision this morning.

I decided to start carrying with 'one in the hole'. I've been mulling over this ever since I was graciously gifted a holster by anonymous people here on the boards. I finally came to the conclusion that it's actually safer for me to be able to quickly and, if necessary, one-handedly draw the firearm and be able to fire. That extra second of racking the slide could get me or others killed and could be impossible if my other hand is unusable (filled with something, grabbed by an attacker, etc).

I now carry my GLOCK 27 in a SERPA CQC holster with Winchester Ranger SXT 165gr JHP's at the ready.

 

[irfner]

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Jonnyjeeps: From the answers here it is clear most of the respondents carry with one in the chamber. But that is not required. Carry the way you are most comfortable. Your instinct is probably one of your best allies. Listen to it. If over time you become more comfortable with one in the chamber then by all means make the change. Remember you are the one carrying the gun. Do so in a way that meets the legal requirements and is most comfortable for you.