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One In the Hole?

Bear 45/70

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irfner wrote:
Jonnyjeeps: From the answers here it is clear most of the respondents carry with one in the chamber. But that is not required. Carry the way you are most comfortable. Your instinct is probably one of your best allies. Listen to it. If over time you become more comfortable with one in the chamber then by all means make the change. Remember you are the one carrying the gun. Do so in a way that meets the legal requirements and is most comfortable for you.
You don't become comfortable with one in the chamber by not doing it. IMHO, not having one in the chamber can get you hurt or dead or worse, others hurt or dead.
 

jonnyjeeps

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Well I am carring one in the hole now and am getting to the point where its second nature to rack it after its loaded. I do still think about it though(at times) but one of the benefites of single action only is, point and shoot, so I will take advantage of it.

Also I found a place called "insights" through the board here and am anxiously waitingtill this weekends class for general defensive handgun. It sounds like a lot of fun and a great opportunity to get the 0-1 step down as this is the most important, So i've heard.

Anyone been there or knowe what to expect?
 

G27

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If you don't think guns are safe in condition one then maybe you should take a step back and truly look at what you're carrying. Guns aren't fun toys, they are made for one reason. If they weren't dangerous, I wouldn't carry one. If you have some issue with carrying in C1, then I suggest you take a firearm class and learn a bit more about guns and how to safely and responsibly carry one.
 

jonnyjeeps

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thanks for the condesending remarks g27. It was an honest question lacking of any tough guy demeanor, but you've turned it into a issue of worthiness to carry a firearm. :banghead:

Also guns are a lot of fun, as aremany dangerous things.
 

G27

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Sorry Johnny, I didn't even read your post. It wasn't a lash out on you, or anyone for that matter. I just never really understood the point. I was simply stating that if one does not trust themselves to carry "cocked and locked" then maybe they should seek a firearms class to become more comfortable with what they're carrying. A gun is only as safe as you make it. Sorry if I offended you, or anyone, for that fact.
 

Rook

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Well, I have a couple pistols that I keep with me and actually I too had to 'get there.' I have a P12 Para that has the manual safety as well as the grip safety and I did find for a bit that depending on how I was holstered I would keep it cocked and locked or the latter.

First I started out with an inside the pant Uncle Mikes Nylon holster. The primary reason for this was so I didn't have to set my pistol on random things while at the range. In this holster I didn't trust the holster to be cocked and locked because it had no retention at all and I was uneasy about it positioning, especially when getting in and out of my vehicle.

Second I got a BladeTech hip holster, (outside the pant) and still I didn't trust my pistol to be C1. The reason I had for this was that my manual safety was exposed and any bending movement could effectively trigger this mechanism unknowingly. The idea however at this point was getting to feel a little better because the trigger is completely covered...yet, there is no back strap on this holster either so my fear of being disarmed of a pistol that was ready to roll kept me from committing.

Finally I purchased a Triple K shoulder rig and I transcended to the fully cocked and locked state. For one, the barrel is pointed behind me, there is a back strap for protection from hammer fall and the safety and trigger are completely covered. I don't see a practical way of possibly having this gun go off...so, I now ride cocked and locked and just the fact that I have been carrying like this makes me think it would be fine to do in most of my other circumstances as well.

Since then, I have ditched the Mike's inside pant as more of a place to put my pistol if I have it sitting on my desk at home and don't want to scratch the stainless ;) The bladetech is going to be tossed, and I have written an email to SafariLand to see if they carry a L3 duty holster I will use when I am out and about and don't want to shoulder my pistol.

It took a bit for me to gain confidence in how the safeties are implemented but now I will ride with one in the pipe all the time because I have confidence in how my pistol works and EXACTLY what it takes beyond loading a bullet to make the gun lethal.
 

just_a_car

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
irfner wrote:
Jonnyjeeps: From the answers here it is clear most of the respondents carry with one in the chamber. But that is not required. Carry the way you are most comfortable. Your instinct is probably one of your best allies. Listen to it. If over time you become more comfortable with one in the chamber then by all means make the change. Remember you are the one carrying the gun. Do so in a way that meets the legal requirements and is most comfortable for you.
You don't become comfortable with one in the chamber by not doing it. IMHO, not having one in the chamber can get you hurt or dead or worse, others hurt or dead.

I disagree with the first sentence and (by way of my saying as much previously) agree with with second.

I became comfortable with having one in the chamber by walking around with my GLOCK 27 in a "trigger cocked, no round chambered" condition in my SERPA CQC holster. By doing this, I convinced myself that the trigger could not end up in the "fired" position and thus, discharge a round, while holstered in my day-to-day activities. This took months of carrying to be certain that I would not have an ND due to a faulty holster or conditions of my carry.


I do not fault, nor disuade, those that wish to become comfortable with carrying one in the chamber. You must feel comfortable with it and you have to do what is necessary to get to that level of comfort, whether it be time carrying in a holster, taking a class, or just telling yourself over and over again that it won't go off on it's own.

I still stand by my stance that it is better to carry a firearm with an empty chamber on your person (and have to spend a little extra time and use both hands to ready the firearm) than to leave the firearm at home and be that much less capable of defending yourself.
 

TechnoWeenie

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Can someone name the movie where a bunch of mil. guys go into chow, an officer yells at the guys to 'check the safety on their weapons' or something to that effect,and they all hold up their fingers and say 'yup, still here', or some crap like that?
 

joeroket

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TechnoWeenie wrote:
Can someone name the movie where a bunch of mil. guys go into chow, an officer yells at the guys to 'check the safety on their weapons' or something to that effect,and they all hold up their fingers and say 'yup, still here', or some crap like that?
Blackhawk Down. The phrase was, as he holds up his trigger finger, "This is my safety."
 

tjschul

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A little off the topic, but a very interesting article on Para LDA's on the Seecamp board. Larry Seecamp describes in detail why a para LDA is really a single action. Some folks carrying one of those might think they are carrying a "condition 1" double actionwhen in fact, its really a condition 1 single action. That explanation might influence a persons decision on which condition to carry in their LDA in.

http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1158020002

I prefer hammer down on a live round, safety off, in my detonics. But then it was designed to carry in this way.
 

Bear 45/70

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tjschul wrote:
A little off the topic, but a very interesting article on Para LDA's on the Seecamp board. Larry Seecamp describes in detail why a para LDA is really a single action. Some folks carrying one of those might think they are carrying a "condition 1" double actionwhen in fact, its really a condition 1 single action. That explanation might influence a persons decision on which condition to carry in their LDA in.

http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1158020002

I prefer hammer down on a live round, safety off, in my detonics. But then it was designed to carry in this way.
All true 1911s and copies can be carried that way, not just the Detonics.
 

Liko81

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First let's state some theoretical posits. A properly-trained, properly-aware person can safely carry and use ANY gun in ANY condition, even Condition Zero. This is because a properly-trained, properly-aware person will never fail to heed the 4 rules. You know them, but I will summarize soI can refer to them by number:

  1. Treatthe gunas if itwere loaded at all times.
  2. Point the muzzle away from non-targets.
  3. Keepyour finger off the triggeruntil you are ready to fire.
  4. Know what youwill hit when you fire.
If you always follow these four rules, and are familiar with the firearm you are carrying, it will never be unsafe. However, humans make mistakes and therefore a carry mode that mitigates the results of such a mistake while still keeping the weapon in a readily useable stateis desireable.

For me it all depends on the gun. My first gun (A Ruger P95 -DA/SA with decocking manual safety)was firstkept in Condition 3; unchambered, hammer-down, safety on.it generally stayedin the open by my side, andI practiced "Israeli draw" to bring the weapon to ready. It's still my primary weapon, only now that I have a holster for it I carry it condition 2 (the decocking safety makes condition one impossible), which is safe but immediately fireable.I have not yet made a final decision about the position of the safety. Either way, a TDA is totally safe hammer-down on a chambered round as long as, as always, you observe Rule 1.

For a DAO, one in the chamber issafe for the same reason as it is in a TDA.However, safe-action DA pistols like Glockshave less of a trigger pull,meaning if the triggerlatch is defeated or Rule3 is broken the gun willvery easily put a round into the ground at your side, or worse.The solution however is simple; keep your booger hooker off the bangbutton while drawing and holding ready. The trigger bar will prevent the trigger being pulled practically any other way. For added insurance use a holster; I would not recommend keeping a Glock unholstered in your waistband or pocket. The holster'strigger coverencourages you to lay your index finger straight alongside it, meaning that finger will lay alongside the trigger guard as you draw. It also prevents anything else from getting inside the trigger guard where it may manipulate the trigger.

I still have issues carrying a 1911 in condition 1. It's just me; I have no qualms about anyone else doing it and I realize it's an irrational fear. The reason I'm squeamishis that I've fired a few good 1911s, and when the trigger's been worked to give you a 3-pound, 1/16" pull, the trigger has neither a latch nor a hard pull. You are therefore dependent on the mechanical safety (and I've seen them get nudged off),the grip safety (which you have deactivated before even pulling the gun out of the holster), and 100% fail-safecompliance with Rule 3.In practical terms, while drawing you can really only depend on Rule 3; the safeties aredeactivatedbefore you clear the holster.

"Israeli carry" of a 1911 (Condition 3; rack the slide as you present) is also contestable; There's a difference betweenthe time it takes to draw and fire from condition 1 versus condition 3, and that gap can get you killed. It also requires two hands.There's no doubt howeverthat racking the slide as you draw introduces an extra intimidation factor, and there is absolutely no way, even if all safeties have failed, for an empty chamber to fire a bullet.

I think that, in the end, if youcan't trust a firearm with the chamber loaded then don't carry it.Virtually allfirearms made in the last 80 years have a condition in which they are totally safe, and yet two steps or less from firing.
 

tjschul

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
tjschul wrote:
A little off the topic, but a very interesting article on Para LDA's on the Seecamp board. Larry Seecamp describes in detail why a para LDA is really a single action. Some folks carrying one of those might think they are carrying a "condition 1" double actionwhen in fact, its really a condition 1 single action. That explanation might influence a persons decision on which condition to carry in their LDA in.

http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1158020002

I prefer hammer down on a live round, safety off, in my detonics. But then it was designed to carry in this way.
All true 1911s and copies can be carried that way, not just the Detonics.


Granted, they can be carried that way ....But only the detonics (combat master) has features designed by the factory to make this a safer/better carry mode than in other 1911's:

1.Top of slide is significantly cut down to make for easier access to the hammer for "decocking/cocking".

2. Amuch heavier firing pin return spring is fitted.

The lack of these features make this hammer down on a live round carry less safe in other 1911's or clones than in this pistol IMHO.


I personally woudn't carry any of my other 1911 clones this way.
 

Bear 45/70

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I don't know what supposed 1911 you have been looking at but in everyone I've ever own with the hammer down the firing pin doesn't extend out far enough to touch the primer of a chambered round. BTW therehave beenseveral Detonic Mark I's in my household for a whole lot of years. Your theory is leak and wishful thinking at best.
 

tjschul

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Supposed 1911? What the heck does that mean...you know a 1911 action and I don't? Built a few of them over the years, I think I know how they work.

The point you are missing has to do with dropping a weapon (for what ever unknown reason) and having the inertia of the firing pin be sufficient to ignite a primer. Nothing to do with firing pins extending past the breachface. Thought that was a given.

As a detonics owner you might want to read this:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/detonics/detonics_history_patyates.html

A little history, and the intent of the designer of this fine pistol in his words not my wishful thinking. So I guess it the designer who had the weak theory.

Mines a MKVII, special order...no sights, slimmer slide, and a few other nifty frills.

Wanna sell you MK I?
 

Bear 45/70

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tjschul wrote:
The point you are missing has to do with dropping a weapon (for what ever unknown reason) and having the inertia of the firing pin be sufficient to ignite a primer. Nothing to do with firing pins extending past the breachface. Thought that was a given.

As a detonics owner you might want to read this:

http://www.biggerhammer.net/detonics/detonics_history_patyates.html

A little history, and the intent of the designer of this fine pistol. So I guess it the designer who had the weak idea.

Mines a MKVII, special order...no sights, slimmer slide, and a few other nifty frills.

First off only a moron drops his pistol muzzle down. If the hammer is down, the firing pin can't move far enough or hard enough against the spring to ignite the primer even in a standard 1911.

Both ours are Mark Is with Seattle stmps and one was cut and welded the other is one of the first Essex frames.
 

tjschul

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Guess you don't agree with the designer of this fine pistol or the state of CA (drop tests). I suppose you have done your own testing to prove your wishful theory.

Wait a minute, I don't agree with the State of CA on a damn thing!!!!!

But... if the moron who carries his 1911 hammer down on a live round drops his firearm near me or mine, I'd be much happier knowing it was actually designed not to discharge.

Man that's an early pair you have, and collectable.Actually I have a Mark IV (bellevue gun) and the Mark VII (seattle gun). How about the news there is going to be another incarnation of Detonics (after the Detonics USA) soon.
 

John Hardin

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
tjschul wrote:
A little off the topic, but a very interesting article on Para LDA's on the Seecamp board. Larry Seecamp describes in detail why a para LDA is really a single action. Some folks carrying one of those might think they are carrying a "condition 1" double actionwhen in fact, its really a condition 1 single action. That explanation might influence a persons decision on which condition to carry in their LDA in.

http://www.seecamp.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1158020002

I prefer hammer down on a live round, safety off, in my detonics. But then it was designed to carry in this way.
All true 1911s and copies can be carried that way, not just the Detonics.
Are you sure about that, Bear? Everything I've seen indicates a 1911 with the hammer down on a live round in the chamber is a tragic accident waiting to happen should something strike the hammer with sufficient force.

Didn't the firing pin block only show up in the model 80? What 1911 clones have a firing pin block?

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.htm
 
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