Pulled over, officer had his piece at the low ready...

[HankT]

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Reverend73 wrote:

.....I kid you not:cuss:. Here's the story. So I'm tooling along in my 84 Toyota pickup (heavily off road modified) down 64E just past Indian River rd not speeding, in the right hand lane, heading to my boss' house to help him install some crown molding.Then I notice blue lights in my rearview and think what the heck?? So I pull over, cop comes up to the passenger door. Its locked so I lean over and unlock it and he opens it. "License and Registration", so I give it to him (I'm military so its registered in FL and have FL drivers license, but have VA insurance) and ask why he pulled me over. Says my bumper are too high. Fair enough. I like to be upfront with officers so I got his attention and stated "be advised" as I lifted my sweatshirt to expose my Kimber .45. He's says "you got a permit for that", I state, sure do as I hand it to him. He takes it, and goes back to his cruiser. So I'm thinking he's going to be cool with it. Not so. About 5 min later comes back to the passengers side, opens the door and says he's going to need the gun, says he's not sure if my FL CCW is valid here, I assure him it is. He says can you unload the weapon in the holster, I say no (the entire time he has his piece pulled and at the low ready). So he says pull your shirt up and I will remove it (I have the new blackhawk serpa holster--very good retention) he tries in vain. I say, Ill push the release button, you pull the gun out--ok. Still cant get it, lol. So he says for me to slowly pull it, but leave it just in the holster, which i do and he finally retrieves the weapon. At this point I stated something to the effect of "for heavens sake, you know I'm a naval officer, disarming me at gunpoint is really uncalled for. " To which he stated he was doing it for his safety and mine, blah, blah, blah. Then about 10 min later he finally comes back, says my FL CCW is valid here (no kidding), and gives me a ticket for bumpers too high. I could not care less about the ticket, Im actually a little proud of it, as its my first one in the old "yota", but the thing that pisses me off is the fact that I was treated like a common criminal when the only law I broke was a vehicle code. Give me a friggen break.

Just an opinion, but sounds like you caused most of the grief you have come to feel for this minor traffic stop. Disregarding the out of spec truck situation that initiated the stop (you seem ambivalent about the ticket, saying it is "fair enough" but also deciding to fight the ticket--which one is it?), your method of alerting the officer to your gun leaves something to be desired.

And just exactly when did the officer's gun come out? You're not clear aboutwhen that happened.When you raised your shirt--but before you handed him your permit? Or after he came back to the car?

Once things got off on the wrong foot, it is hard to predict or control how much concern the officer is going to have about you, your declaration of your official status ("naval officer")notwithstanding. You seem infatuated with the idea that you are somehow special and above it all.

This attitude is present continued in your special plan to resolve all of the issues involved--to file a complaint and to do it while OCing.

Dare I ask? What does the right to OC have to do with a traffic summons or a complaint about how the officer handled a situation involving concealed carry?

Maybe cool off and reflect on what you actually did tocomplicate the encounterand the in-your-face attitudeyou have about your complaint filingbefore you make matters worse for yourself.

 

[bayboy42]

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HankT:

Reverend already concedes that he could have notified the officer in a better manner

"I should have told the cop about the weapon in a different fashion (ie "I have a CCW and I am armed" or something to that effect) rather than the way I did it."

Additionally, Reverend is also clear about when the officer's gun came into play

"He's says "you got a permit for that", I state, sure do as I hand it to him. He takes it, and goes back to his cruiser. So I'm thinking he's going to be cool with it. Not so. About 5 min later comes back to the passengers side, opens the door and says he's going to need the gun, says he's not sure if my FL CCW is valid here, I assure him it is. He says can you unload the weapon in the holster, I say no (the entire time he has his piece pulled and at the low ready)".

My point being, the LEO had already returned to his car, leaving Reverend armed in his car. Since he already had Reverend's ID, I'd be willing to bet that he ran it through the computer (he was gone approximately 5 minutes) so he knew that Reverend was not a felon, wanted, etc. Returning to the vehicle with his firearm in low-ready position soley because "he's not sure if his Florida CCW permit is valid in VA" was not necessary. It all goes back to LEO training. Why don't LEOs have a CCW cheat sheet in their cars? Couldn't he have taken an extra 2 minutes to contact dispatch to inquire whether Florida's CCW permit are valid in VA? I'll go one step further: Even if VA didn't recognize Florida's permits, its still just a misdemeanor charge!

 

[Desertdoc]

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HankT wrote:

Once things got off on the wrong foot, it is hard to predict or control how much concern the officer is going to have about you, your declaration of your official status ("naval officer")notwithstanding. You seem infatuated with the idea that you are somehow special and above it all.

#1 as a Naval officer that should set off bells that he is not a criminal and that he should not be treated as such. I for one would think that someone that is serving this country and putting his life on the line should be treated with alittle more respect.

Hank you dont work for the MPD do you?

 

[Reverend73]

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Hank, I am not fighting the ticket per se, just going to court to take my chances with the judge, vice just pay outright. Supposedly, if I get it in spec they will just throw it out.



Oh, and I am not above it all but my job should give him some very good assurance that I won't do anything aggressive or illegal. If I did, I wouldnt have my job very long. That is all I was trying to say. And like Bayboy said, re-read my initial post for the details, it is very accurate.

 

[HankT]

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Reverend73 wrote:

Oh, and I am not above it all but my job should give him some very good assurance that I won't do anything aggressive or illegal. If I did, I wouldnt have my job very long. That is all I was trying to say. And like Bayboy said, re-read my initial post for the details, it is very accurate.

You're making the same analytical mistake now that you made back when the event happened. You conflate two truths: one, that you are a naval officer, and, two: that the officer has a procedure to verify that you are what you say you are.

You, conveniently, skip over the fact that there must be a process for the officer to satisfy himself that the assertion of naval officer-ness from a person he has never seen or known before is true. In ordinary situations this assertion/verification/acceptance process takes a few seconds--maybe less. In your case, and from all evidence because of your blundering behavior in the matter, it took a few minutes. And, the officer, right or wrong, stupid or not, elected to behave in a provocative (to you) manner until he was satisfied you were what you claimed to be: a legal concealed weapon carrying law abiding citizen. Uh, I mean a legal concealed weapon carrying law abiding naval officer.

The easy point to be made is that your doltish display and announcement of your weapon (My God! Did you really just lift up your shirt slowly while saying "Be advised...") tripped an idea in the officer's head that he just didn't like the all the disparate and conflicting details of this routine stop:

1. Oddball vehicle
2. Out of state tags/registration--in state insurance
3. Driver is out of state resident
4. Driver has a gun (at least one)
5. Driver shows off that he has a gun, with cryptic comment of "be advised."
6. Driver says heis a naval officer but acts like a yokel

The main detail, of course, became the presense of a guncoupled with the manner of presentation. There was something odd about that movie scene-like introduction. The officer decided to be ultra-tactical about it, no question, and other officers may very well have handled it less stridently. But, considering the precipitating event (the shirt-lifting thang with the movie tag line), it should have been merely annoying to you. You should have realized that you set up the bad scene.

Seems to me you, should understand that. Wasn't but a four months ago that some goof got stopped for routine speeding in your state and produced a state ID. It was phony butwhile the officer was trying to check it out, which took a few minutes, things got out of hand and the speeder got the drop on the officer andshot him dead. Put one behind his ear after the officer was down, too. Your case isn't structurallydifferent from the Angilo Freeland stop, really. Except that in your case, the officer KNEW you had a gun.

Your beef is that the officer mistreated you in some way. And now, you're gonna make an official deal out of it. Should the officer have known that a FL permit was good in VA? Yeah, I think so. That applicability, and the lack of knowledge of it was crucial to the tone of the event. Oh, well. The officer f*cked up. Go file a complaint.

But you're handling even that with a crude, almost bizarre manner. You, for some reason, want to file the complaint "while open carrying." Why, I don't know. The right to open carry is an extremely important issue in VA and other states. And more work needs to be done to diffuse the acceptability of OC to the general public and LE communities. But OC is not involved as anissue in your traffic stop. I notice that you didn't answer the question I raised earlier:

What does the right to OC have to do with a traffic summons or a complaint about how the officer handled a situation involving concealed carry?


I'm sure you didn't answer this question because there is no logical answer for it. You simply want to show "them"upinstubborn and cloddish manner,just because you can. Or, at least, you think you can.

And, oh yeah, in court, you are hoping to " see the officer there and can have a discussion with him over why he chose to disarm me at gunpoint." Is this hoped-for discussionBEFORE or AFTER you file your complaint against him? And will you be OCing? If you are filing a complaint against this officer it would be kind of, well, odd to talk to him BEFORE your complaint. And it would be, well, ludicrous to talk to him AFTER the complaint.

Regarding that official complaint, you're gonna walk into that police facility and are just going to be a guy with a beef about a ticket. Actually, a guy with a beef and a gun. And a chip on your shoulder. Good luck, sir,OCing into the police facility.

Personally, I think you will back out of filing the complaint while OCing. It's such a weird idea that even you won't have the bad 'tude to do it. It's not a very officer-like thing to do, really. That's my opinion, anyways.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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Or the hypocrisy of cops enforcing which laws they please capriciously.

I assure you that 'bumpers' are an issue in First Amendment advocacy communities. Don't forget the broader issues that are just as infringed as our RKABA.

The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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Bravo, HankT, Bravo Zulu. Great post.

When thinking of Naval Officers or navel orifices, remember Carter.

I once had a young gentleman let a spec get one degree OOS and it was found by our Federal audit agency -- my fault. When reproached the young gentleman denied the significance and said, "I'll take that hit!" The CO fired him on the spot.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KKK MA$$

 

[DrMark]

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Doug Huffman wrote:

NRA KKK MA$$

What?

 

[Reverend73]

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Hank, I will say it again. I should have told the officer in another manner that I was carrying, or maybe not at all. I like to inform them though, I think it is a bad idea to not inform them and then if/when they discover you are armed, things can go downhill very quickly.

That is all, if anything, that I did incorrectly. I assure you I was an example of respectfulness, keeping my hands where he could see them, etc. I'm very sorry you feel the need to write a book lecturing me on what I did wrong.



Doug, not sure what to say other than Wiskey Tango Foxtrot ???

 

[molonlabetn]

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DrMark wrote:

Doug Huffman wrote:

NRA KKK MA$$

What?

Huffman wants the National Rifle Association to smooch his behind... He thinks that they are gallus snappers*, from what I can gather.

:uhoh:

molonlabetn



*Monica Lewinski's claim to fame was being a 'gallus snapper'.

 

[bellbw]

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To avoid any confusion on how to treat a traffic stop while carrying...I was told in my CHP class to pull over with hazards on, roll down your window, turn off the engine and then keep your hands on the wheel until told to do otherwise. When handing the LEO your license simply hand him your CC permit and notify him you are carrying and where the gun is at or even better notify him that you are legally carrying before even making the movement to get these documents. From there on, just follow his instructions and do anything he asks to make him feel more comfortably. Not critisizing how you treated the stop, Reverend, but next time this should ease the situation because it will put the officer more at ease while he figures out whether or not your permit is valid for the state you are in if he does not know yet.

 

[Bubba Ron]

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Just where are all these brand new to OCDO "fountains of knowledge" coming from :question:

 

[HankT]

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Reverend73 wrote:

Hank, I will say it again. I should have told the officer in another manner that I was carrying, or maybe not at all. I like to inform them though, I think it is a bad idea to not inform them and then if/when they discover you are armed, things can go downhill very quickly.

That is all, if anything, that I did incorrectly. I assure you I was an example of respectfulness, keeping my hands where he could see them, etc. I'm very sorry you feel the need to write a book lecturing me on what I did wrong.

Seems like your method of disclosure caused things to go downhill pretty quickly too.

So, when are you gonna filing your complaint against the officer while open carrying? You've stated that you know the laws and that you know it can be done.You haven't answered the question of how open carry while filing a complaint is related to your disarming incident while concealed carrying. But I'm sure you whipped up some rationale.

Whatare , btw, thedetails ofyour forthcoming complaint about the officer's handling of your traffic stop? How are you gonna substantiate your contention that the officer bullied and/or harrassedyou? Maybe you could post a draft of it so we can all be educated? Just in case it ever happens to us.

You are going to file the complaint as you said earlier, are you not?

 

[Reverend73]

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Did you read the PM I sent you hank? Tell you what, I'm going to PM you my cell #, you call me and get everything off your chest, since apparently someone pissed in your cheerios. Have a nice day.



Brian

 

[badmonkey]

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Bubba Ron wrote:

Just where are all these brand new to OCDO "fountains of knowledge" coming from :question:

That's what I'm wondering too.....

 

[Mr. Y]

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Not for nothing but if he had doubts about the FL Concealed permit validity he had several correct coursed of actions to choose from. Among them:

Request dispatch contact VSP while he waits in his cruiser for backup which he calls for at the same time.

Ask dispatch to confirm reciprocitywhile he waitsin his cruiser.

Call for VSP backup direct

If the officer was worried about safety he wouldn't have RE-approachedthe vehicle to actively disarm the guy. His actions were foolish, not safe for either party. He initiated an armed 'attack' for lack of a better term. I understand it was legally permitted, but this is the kind of police that cause more problems than they solve.

Frankly, I think OP should have refused the disarmament order period. "No, I'll sit here peaceably until you verify the permit is good, but I'm not playing dangerous gun handling games on the road side. If you want to arrest me, I'll come peacefully, but there's not going to be any gun play here today." IMO the officer lacked any reasonablebelief that a crime had taken place or was about to take place beyond the bumper height and as the Super Moderator has pointed out, that 's only enough for a summons. OP provided a valid recognized permit to the officer and there was no excuse for the officer to behave the way he did.

He might nothave liked it, but he'd like it a lot better than if OP was negligently shot due to his actions. Unless it was in FairfaxCounty...

By the same justification this officer used, wouldn't we all be safer if we disarmed the Fairfax County Police every time we encountered them on the very real apprehension that they might negligently kill us onone of their warrant raids? - just a thought.

 

[Hawkflyer]

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Reverend73 wrote:

...I like to be upfront with officers so I got his attention and stated "be advised" as I lifted my sweatshirt to expose my Kimber .45. ...

So think of it this way. If Tony Soprano had lifted his shirt to expose a weapon, looked you in the eye and said "Be advised", I think you might consider that a threat. It was no different in the view of that Officer.

All you had to do was say, "Officer I have a concealed handgun in my possession" and then wait for him to respond. Alternatively you could have just said nothing.

Personally I always tell them just to avoid any problems, but you are not bound by law to do so.

Regards

 

[bayboy42]

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Shortly after this post started, Reverend73 stated:

I should have told the cop about the weapon in a different fashion (ie "I have a CCW and I am armed" or something to that effect) rather than the way I did it.

and later Reverend 73 says:

Hank, I will say it again. I should have told the officer in another manner that I was carrying, or maybe not at all.


Now thanks to comments like those from HankT and Hawkflyer, this thread has now moved into the realm of:

 

[HankT]

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Reverend73 wrote:

Did you read the PM I sent you hank? Tell you what, I'm going to PM you my cell #, you call me and get everything off your chest, since apparently someone pissed in your cheerios. Have a nice day.



Brian

No, it wasn't cheerios. Here's my concern, R73. You have stated that:

"I will be filing a complaint, in person, while open carrying."

regarding the incident described in the OP.

Why "in person"? And why "while open carrying?" What's the relationship between open carry in front of police officers and your incident?

I think you're just trying to rub somebody's nose in it for some reason. I don't think it's a good idea. Especially with your record of interacting with an LEO in Virginia in a potentially stressful situation: you arguing that the LEO described in the OP was somehow bullying you.

You're just going to be a guy with a beef and an attitude. And a gun.

It could, as your original incident, go somewhat south, somewhat fast.

Seems to me that the recent incident with Tony's 7 added a lot of credibility to the group of OCing citizens in Virginia. T7 had a reason to be where they were, conducting personal business that was clearly not meant to incite anyone or anything.T7were cool, respectful, and composed. The refused to let the situation escalate, despite the efforts of Officer Clodfelter and company. Then, the strong showing by articulate, reasonable, and composed OCers at the Manassas City Council again showed that the group of VA OCersdefinitely had soundjudgment.

Lots of positive political and social capital was earned by T7 and their supporters at the city council. Kudos to them.

And you insist on filing a complaint against some guy who gave you a ticket in person while openly carrying? Why? Just to see what will happen? Don't you see that you are risking the capital earned by T7 that VA OCers are enjoying right now?

Tell you what. Send me a copy of your draft complaint via PM and I'll spruce it up for you. I'll give you a call and point out why all the references to bullying are not a good idea. It may feel good for you to say that stuff, but it doesn't work well to ascribe to the LEO a basis for his behavior that you cannot prove. If you go with the bully stuff, all he has to do is deny his behavior was based on what you claim. You would lose. Again.

 

[shdwrdr]

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I may be speaking out of ignorance, but if a vehicle is registered in FL, and the owner is a FL resident, then aren't specs on the vehicle subject to FL law, not VA law, even if the vehicle owner is temporarily a resident of VA (i.e. military service)? If so, then the officer had no reason to pull Reverend over in the first place. I may not be correct, but that seems to be the case. That is my opinion, if anyone has the legal backup and I am wrong, then let me know.