Taken down at gun point at Greenlake today.

[Jeff Hayes]

1st off this is jsanchez's and only jsanchez's decision on how to handle this situation. No matter what he decides to do he has my full backing.

Having said that I dont believe that turning the other cheek and letting this go again is any longer the way to go. We as a group have been pretty tolerant, we have over and over simply asked for training for the patrol officers. Over and over again we have been promised that this kind of thing will not happen again. The only way this is going to stop is for it to cost the officers and the LEA money and lots of it. I have never been given any slack by an officer for not knowing the law and I guess I am at the point of not giving the officers that behave this way any slack either.

I say go for the jugular, dont settle take it all the way to the end. If any of us had held an innocent person at gun point we would be looking at prison time and fines, its about time we turn the tables.

I am of course assuming that the facts we have right now are correct, further investigation is necessary.

 

[Lightning Jeff]

Hmm. I'm pretty new to posting around here (lurked for quite some time), but I'm kind of surprised someone interested in gun rights in Washington doesn't know well who Dave Workman is. I've followed his Examiner articles, and his posts on various forums, for some time. I don't always agree with his approach/assessment, but absolutely can't question his dedication to the Second Amendment, and pursuit and defense of our rights here in Washington. Among other things, Workman is a board member at the Washington Arms Collectors; editor of Gun Week (SAF/CCRKBA publication); and author of an accurate and well-done publication on Washington gun laws.

Here's my take on your "rhetorical" questions...

Well, is he a reporter or a blogger?

A bit of both. The Examiner column is really a blog, but he does frequently seek comment from relevant sources, which goes beyond the typical blogger's approach.

A gun rights activist, or a guy simply trying to earn a paycheck?

Absolutely, a gun rights activist.

Is he MSM, or alternative press?

Hate to use the term "alternative," but he's definitely not MSM!

Was the omission intentional, or simply an oversight?

He'll have to answer that one. I thought the story was a decent summary, and I appreciated the link to this thread and the original "source" material.

I agree that officers drawing weapons in response to a MWAG call and no other suggestion of a problem was too much. I would be really interested in hearing the 911 call and the communications between dispatcher and officer. We don't have that yet, and I'll reserve judgment on everything else unless/until that comes out.

 

[1245A Defender]

well,,,

because it is so cute!!!

from the OP...
The officers park there cars and the fat one tries to make a tatical approach, aka trying to sneak up, but he was wider then the tree he was trying to hide behind. So he peaks around the tree to see me and I wave at him, don't you hate it when you lose the element of surprise.

sounds like this particular OCer must have been an IMMINENT and UNPREDICTABLE THREAT!!!!

 

[Ruby]

Well, having read this entire thread, I guess I'll throw in my two cents worth. Most of you know that I am a pretty reasonable and logical person. BUT, on this incident I have to agree with SVG and Orphan. Just in the short time (two years)that I have been on this forum, I have witnessed far too much of this kind of thing happening. I agree: it's high time it stopped. I no longer care why SPD just doesn't get it. Maybe they just don't WANT to get it or maybe they just don't care about citizens' rights at all. I'm tired of SPD or any other LEA (Pierce County comes to mind) violating citizens' rights, any rights, but especially 2A rights.

What do you do when the people who have been hired to serve and protect continue to break the law and violate citzens' rights with impunity?!? Over, and over and over, and they get away with it. Who are the idiots here, the ones doing the violating, or the ones tolerating it?!? Why do we continue to think that they will stop because we ask them to? Without being penalized in some way, what incentive do they have to stop? How many times have the training bulletins been issued? If they haven't stopped the violations yet, why do we think that issuing them again will help? In the mean time, people's rights are violated, a few have had to hire lawyers at their own expense, and a native woodcarver, who posed no threat at all and wasn't doing anything wrong, is dead. We all know what Tom Brewster went through and we supported him at Spanaway. But how much good did it do to get things changed with PCSD? How much good would a public display at Greenlake do? Given the anti-gun socialist Seattle attitude, not much.

At the very least, file a complaint. Most of us don't have the financial resources to hire a lawyer and bring a suit and they know that. It could have happened to any one of us; violating the civil rights of any of us, and not just gunners, should be viewed as a slap in the face to all of us. Seems to me that about three hundred years ago plus, some people fought a war over some of the same principles. And won. Now I'm not suggesting a war over this, not at all. But I ask myself and all of you should also, When is it going to end? What will it take to make them stop?
What are our choices if they don't stop? Where is the breaking point?

 

[Ruby]

Sorry, two hundred plus years ago. I got carried away.

 

[Badger Johnson]

First a bit of humor. We went for a skiing lesson and the instructor talked about learning to snowplow and the hazards of new skiers just tucking and flying down the slope like a bullet. At the end of the class filled with good instruction on controlled downhill, he said enthusiastically, raising his own hand 'Now, who wants to fly down the slope like a rocket?'. Against all the wisdom of the lesson a bunch of people energetically raised their hands and said "I do!" (Instructor facepalms and rolls eyes).

I can see the SPD briefing, lots of photos, instructions, what's legal, how to not go off half cocked, then they show a pic of an OC walking his dog and the watch commander says 'OK, who wants to charge over, prone this guy out, strip his weapons, draw down on him and cuff and stuff him' (hoping against hope) and all the LEOs in the room raise their hands, look around and in unison, say "I DO!" (huh, what?). Commander facepalms and rolls his eyes. LOL.
----
One thing I'm curious about it 'user's' comment about suing the person who called it in for false arrest.

1. Is this to punish the caller? To make a point? To send a message (you do a call in on a MWAG (who is just calmly exercising his 2A) and risk a law suit)?
2. Is there any chance for such a suit to stick, to win and profit?
3. How do you prove culpability?

I'm not saying don't sue them, just wondering what the process and reason is.

 

[Difdi]

With SPD's history of assaulting citizens, can we get the police officers disarmed under the guise of "Citizen Safety"?

No. Disarming a law enforcement officer is illegal outside of two specific circumstances. One is if a sitting judge orders you to do it. The other is if you place an officer under citizen's arrest, he attempts to draw his sidearm in order to resist that arrest. All other attempts to disarm an officer are crimes.

 

[Nevada carrier]

Unpublished opinions are not binding legal precedent and they cannot be cited in legal briefs. However, this does not mean that they are useless. I have often found unpublished cases that exactly support the position I want to argue. Just because I can't cite them doesn't mean i can't use language from the case (some would call this plagiarism - - in the law this is not only expected, it is required). It really is too bad that Casad wasn't published as it has very good language for open carry. Go ahead and use the language - - just don't tell anyone where you got it.

if they chose not to publish it, it's not plagiarism. You can still quote the justices opinion, but you have to cite the source that you found it in rather than the court as the court did not publish it, someone else did. I don't know if lawyers use APA or MLA, but in either case you can refer to the correct formatting to find the correct citation syntax.

 

[rscottie]

Interesting conversation guys.
Thanks for the report 'jsanchez.' Perhaps we can turn this into a learning opportunity.


Green Lake open carry incident Sunday stirring debate


http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/green-lake-open-carry-incident-sunday-stirring-debate

I read your take on the subject and you seem as though you made an attempt to sugarcoat the actions of these police officers.

Legally armed citizens that are strolling around the park peacefully should not be subjected to encounters with the police that involve having firearms pointed at them and then being forcibly disarmed.

Taking a gun from ones holster by pulling on it with no success and then unbuttoning their belt to remove it is going too far.

If the officers would have merely came up to the legal OC'r and spoke with him concerning the 911 callers concern, then it would not have warranted going after the police.

Treating someone like a criminal with no RAS that they have committed any crime is wrong and must stop. It is trampling our civil rights.

 

[Savage206]

That's interesting, my buddy just hinted me about some good fishing at green lake for the weekdays (I'll be heading there sooner or later). I'll have to make sure I get a decent recorder before I go. Just as what was stated above by Orphan, it might be best to not post more details, even if some of us are dying to know more.

uh I hope you like Carp cause that is the only thing in that lake.

As far as the police drawing down on you, I am surprised that's all they did. They could have just shot you like that homeless indian woodcarver awhile back. SPD is horrible. They think they are empowered to use whatever force neccessary to get citizens to obey regardless of the legalities of the stop or unlawfulness of their orders. This is part of the reason why I moved out of libtard Seattle to the Great State of Kentucky. I open carry everyday here with no problems.

 

[amlevin]

Would be interesting to listen to the 911 Tape. To see how dramatic the caller made the incident out. Who knows, she may well have decided to speed things up by telling the Dispatcher that there was someone there with a gun threatening to shoot the place up.

If the caller was more "instigator" than someone merely reporting a man with a gun, it's too bad they can't be penalized for the inconvenience and embarrassment they caused. Just think, the "tubby" SPD officer probably had to leave the Spud Fish and Chips joint on the East side of the lake to handle this call.

BTW, while the officers were there did they bother to cite any of the dog owners who didn't have their mutts on leash? Or failed to pick up the crap their fido left behind. THOSE actions ARE ILLEGAL at Green Lake, not carrying a firearm.

 

[Bill Starks]

Just received info that a FOI request has been submitted to SPD.

I don't see the blame in this event going to the caller, as the parks signs probably have not been updated. The issue is with the City of Seattle, they lost the case and still will not take the time to use a dremel and a bit of paint to fix the signs. I'm sure if they let us we could have 50 volunteers fix them, for them at no cost.

Before we have a meet...
Jsanchez, have you retained legal counsel ? Have you talked to SPD?

 

[DocWalker]

"First, a reality check with the King County Prosecutor’s Office reveals that it is not against the law for a citizen to call 911 with what the citizen honestly believes to be an emergency, i.e. a man walking around with a gun on his hip."

Quote from the story that was attached that the writer that slanted it to the anti-gun way of thinking. I find it funny he didn't add the line "but the police officers should have known the law and how to approach it".

I agree that she shouldn't be held accountable if she just called in a MWAG in the park without making anything up like he was pointing it at people. But if she said anything other than MWAG sitting on a bench not doing anything she should be charged with making a false report.

 

[Dave Workman]

No mention of drawn gun in Green lake incident report

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/no-mention-of-drawn-gun-green-lake-incident-report

 

[rscottie]

No mention of drawn gun in Green lake incident report

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/no-mention-of-drawn-gun-green-lake-incident-report

I may have misjudged you after reading the first article. This second one seems to point to a style where you are printing what is known (alleged) as well as what people are saying without putting too much of your judgement into it. A let the people read and decide way of writing. I get it.

There definitely needs to be an understanding with the police that disarming law abiding citizens absent RAS is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.

What would the people do if the police stopped and pulled everyone out of their vehicles, making them put their hands on their head, and then making them prove that they had a driver's license in order to drive?

Not the same thing? I agree...the Bill of Rights does not even mention driving a car yet people would riot if the police did something like that.

Carrying a firearm is a right acknowledged by the Second Amendment.

 

[jbone]

This second one seems to point to a style where you are printing...

I suggest police disrobe those that are printing.

 

[amlevin]

No mention of drawn gun in Green lake incident report

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/no-mention-of-drawn-gun-green-lake-incident-report

If the officers arrived, saw no crime being committed, or about to be committed, and all the caller said in the call was "there's a man with with a gun", wheres the Reasonable Suspicion to even conduct a Terry Stop and investigate further?

Even the written report was lacking in any indication of RS.

 

[Lightning Jeff]

If the officers arrived, saw no crime being committed, or about to be committed, and all the caller said in the call was "there's a man with with a gun", wheres the Reasonable Suspicion to even conduct a Terry Stop and investigate further?

Even the written report was lacking in any indication of RS.

Agreed. Gun drawn or not, the cop had no reason to detain OP, no reason to make him place his hands on his head, and, worst of all, only created a more dangerous situation by monkeying with two holstered guns that posed no threat right where they were. I don't know if the "gun drawn" piece is embellishment or truth, but either way this warrants a complaint, in my view.

And OP's actions were entirely appropriate; better to stake out the high ground by cooperating than arguing and resisting, even though he knew he was in the right. That sets him up better to be the voice of reason in any complaint or lawsuit that follows.

 

[Gay_Cynic]

Greenlake & Workman's Article

I've known Workman for long enough to date me a bit, 20+ years. He's a gentleman of integrity and and a bulwark of the Pro2A community. That said, he's ALSO a journalist of integrity with a fair amount of experience, and this early in the game seems to be sticking to what he can independently verify in his writing...and must, as a professional writer, maintain some level of impartiality in his writing.

Reviewing the latest article, I see someone trying to be scrupulously fair and present all sides before asking the reader a number of provocative questions (I suspect in hope of stimulating thought) and refrain from imposing Workman's view on the reader.

Others have cited Workman's involvement in the Pro2A community, and I am another that can vouch for his involvement - most often as a gruff voice speaking out for common sense and keeping it simple. That doesn't make him any less Pro2A - it does make him an ethical journalist, which I'll grant we see ever more seldom.

It doesn't take much to figure out that everybody wins if we can maintain the stance of "good guys & gals trying to help the poor ignorant officers" - both in terms of spin, and in terms of practical costs. Barring breaking news, I am not aware of a lawyer fairy that appears upon rag paper wings and bearing bags of cash to pay attorneys and court costs, nor am I aware of the presence of the 2A Cash Fairy generally - so if we win without going to war, the dollars we have are resources we can use to reduce the obnoxiousness of less friendly climes rather than wasting them on something we could settle by a few well placed conversations.

Failing some kind of advance, though, I do favor litigation - by preference, with great big damages asked for, as an educational tool for governmental bodies with fragile budgets.

GC

 

[geojohn]

Gun drawn or not, the cop had no reason to detain OP, no reason to make him place his hands on his head, and, worst of all, only created a more dangerous situation by monkeying with two holstered guns that posed no threat right where they were.

That last part is what upsets me the most about this case. JSanchez' life was placed in peril for no justifiable reason that I can see. It was wrong.