Tasers - An Electronics Tech's Opinion

[EMNofSeattle]

A .25 ACP is less lethal than a .40 S&W.....anyone?

The taser is a lethal weapon, not a less lethal weapon, it has killed, and I am quite confident that a taser will kill again. Call it what it is, a lethal weapon, and move on to the acts of the user.

Yes a .25 is less lethal then a .40
A taser is less lethal then a .25
Relevance please?

 

[OC for ME]

A .40 S&W could be less lethal than a sledge hammer to the head.....circular arguments are circular.

Why the dogged clinging to the "less" component of less lethal. Tasers kill. Call it what it is and we can evaluate the lethal weapons use.

BTW a .25 could in fact be more lethal than a .40 S&W. Just as the taser could be more lethal than the .40 S&W. But, we will not know that until a citizen is dead, now would we.

Focus on the point of the op and not the terminology. The OP claims, as I do, that tasers kill, or can kill. If it kills it is a lethal weapon. When it kills is on the user.

Anyway, removing tasers from police results in removal of tasers from the citizenry, no skin off my nose. If I use my firearm to defend my self everybody knows I am intentionally using leathl force to stop a threat. Not everybody knows that a taser can kill. I'll wager that most folks think that nobody can be killed by a taser.

 

[Primus]

A taser is one more tool in the bag that can be used to resolve a situation without death or injury. Its the same as the bean bag guns. Its one more option to use.

Oc let me ask you this. If there is a guy who is actively being combative towards myself or others, would you rather he get beat with a metal pipe (baton) or a taser? I won't even focus o the officer safety issue because that's a whole different argument.

Purely from safety of a citizen. Which do you think is more effective while being less prone to injury? I'm telling you its a taser.

Here's another aspect... its called deterrence. Guys know tasers hurt and they know we can use them way before we can baton someone or shoot someone. When you show up and you have someone who's lucid and they see the green top or the yellow taser it changes the game. If they don't notice it on your belt when you pull it out it changes the game. I've had guys beg to get oc spray instead of it.

Its a proven tool that reduces death and injury to citizens. The argument "well its killed someone" its akin to saying we should walk around in our underwear with nothing at all. Literally having has killed someone. Boots being handcuffed tasers batons oc spray guns hands feet getting pushed.

Basically I feel you focusing on the negative and not looking at the positives it has.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[OC for ME]

A taser is one more tool in the bag that can be used to resolve a situation without death or injury. Its the same as the bean bag guns. Its one more option to use.

Oc let me ask you this. If there is a guy who is actively being combative towards myself or others, would you rather he get beat with a metal pipe (baton) or a taser? I won't even focus o the officer safety issue because that's a whole different argument.

Purely from safety of a citizen. Which do you think is more effective while being less prone to injury? I'm telling you its a taser.

Here's another aspect... its called deterrence. Guys know tasers hurt and they know we can use them way before we can baton someone or shoot someone. When you show up and you have someone who's lucid and they see the green top or the yellow taser it changes the game. If they don't notice it on your belt when you pull it out it changes the game. I've had guys beg to get oc spray instead of it.

Its a proven tool that reduces death and injury to citizens. The argument "well its killed someone" its akin to saying we should walk around in our underwear with nothing at all. Literally having has killed someone. Boots being handcuffed tasers batons oc spray guns hands feet getting pushed.

Basically I feel you focusing on the negative and not looking at the positives it has.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Addressing that which I do not speak to. A bean bag gun has killed, once if I recall. That is not my point. Tasers kill, call it a lethal weapon and develop policies that recognize this fact. Policies that address the misuse of the lethal weapon.

Hell, most folks don't even look at a taser as a weapon. I'll wager that not all cops who have them for use look at them as a lethal weapon.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

A .40 S&W could be less lethal than a sledge hammer to the head.....circular arguments are circular.

Why the dogged clinging to the "less" component of less lethal. Tasers kill. Call it what it is and we can evaluate the lethal weapons use.

BTW a .25 could in fact be more lethal than a .40 S&W. Just as the taser could be more lethal than the .40 S&W. But, we will not know that until a citizen is dead, now would we.

Focus on the point of the op and not the terminology. The OP claims, as I do, that tasers kill, or can kill. If it kills it is a lethal weapon. When it kills is on the user.

Anyway, removing tasers from police results in removal of tasers from the citizenry, no skin off my nose. If I use my firearm to defend my self everybody knows I am intentionally using leathl force to stop a threat. Not everybody knows that a taser can kill. I'll wager that most folks think that nobody can be killed by a taser.

Tasers can In fact kill, but it's unsusual, and very rare. Handguns are made to kill people, and used with that philosophy, in fact from the 1860s to the 1990s manufacturers specifically put millions of dollars of research into studying how to make handgus kill quicker and easier,developing new handguns, new cartridges, hollow point bullets, etc all based on the idea of killing people.

The development of the taser was made from the opposite philosophy, being a product meant to use without killing people. And has only been made safer. No use of force is 100% safe, but tasers are about as safe as they come. Tasers are now legal for civilians in most states too, so lets use this argument, if a woman is assaulted by a man and uses a taser, and the potential rapist dies from a freak medical occurrence as a result of the taser use, should she be investigated and vetted as if she used a firearm?

 

[OC for ME]

Tasers can In fact kill, but it's unsusual, and very rare. Handguns are made to kill people, and used with that philosophy, in fact from the 1860s to the 1990s manufacturers specifically put millions of dollars of research into studying how to make handgus kill quicker and easier,developing new handguns, new cartridges, hollow point bullets, etc all based on the idea of killing people.

The development of the taser was made from the opposite philosophy, being a product meant to use without killing people. And has only been made safer. No use of force is 100% safe, but tasers are about as safe as they come. Tasers are now legal for civilians in most states too, so lets use this argument, if a woman is assaulted by a man and uses a taser, and the potential rapist dies from a freak medical occurrence as a result of the taser use, should she be investigated and vetted as if she used a firearm?

Appeal to emotion noted. And yes, she killed a citizen. She may be found justified, or not.

 

[Primus]

While their intended purpose is to circumvent the use of lethal force such as guns, the actual deployment of Tasers by police in the years since Tasers came into widespread use is claimed to have resulted in more than 180 deaths as of 2006.[23] It is still unclear whether the Taser was directly responsible for the cause of death, but several legislators in the U.S. have filed bills clamping down on them and requesting more studies on their effects.[24] Despite the growing controversy, a study funded by the U.S. Justice Department asserted that the majority of people tasered from July 2005 to June 2007 suffered no injury. A study led by William Bozeman of Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center of nearly 1,000 persons subjected to Taser use concluded that 99.7% of the subjects had either minor injuries, such as scrapes and bruises, or none at all; while three persons suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission, and two other subjects died. Their autopsy reports indicated neither death was related to the use of a Taser.[25][26]
The head of the U.S. southern regional office of Amnesty International, Jared Feuer, claimed that 277 people in the United States have died after being shocked by a Taser between June 2001 and October 2007, which has already been documented. He also claimed that about 80% of those on whom a Taser was used by U.S. police were unarmed. "Tasers interfere with a basic equation, which is that force must always be proportional to the threat," Feuer said. "They are being used in a situation where a firearm or even a baton would never be justified."[27] A spokesperson for Taser International asserted that if a person dies from a "tasering" it is instantaneous and not days later.[28] Taser International announced that it is "transmitting over 60 legal demand letters requiring correction of... false and misleading headlines."[29]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser_safety_issues

I would say 99.7% being not harmed is less than lethal.

Pay attention to the Bottom of this link, the Chronological portion..

If you see the deaths, almost every single one were after the person was tased multiple times... 3, 5, 7 , 9, 10 times. One was even ruled a homicide because he was tased 10 times.

Again, it's not the tool its how it gets used.

 

[OC for ME]

Addressing that which I do not speak to. A bean bag gun has killed, once if I recall. That is not my point. Tasers kill, call it a lethal weapon and develop policies that recognize this fact. Policies that address the misuse of the lethal weapon.

Hell, most folks don't even look at a taser as a weapon. I'll wager that not all cops who have them for use look at them as a lethal weapon.

Uh....:uhoh:

<snip> Again, it's not the tool its how it gets used.

You keep trying to drag me back to where I never was. Tasers have killed. See above.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Uh....:uhoh:

You keep trying to drag me back to where I never was. Tasers have killed. See above.

No you're just not smart enough to abandon this stupid argument you invented, you are looking at guns, which are used to facilitate over 13000 homicides every single year, and then say well because tasers maybe kill 200 people over ten years in freaky contrived scenarios playing out in people who aren't healthy enough for criminal activity, they're a lethal weapon just like guns and must be regulated the same way" that argument is so outright silly it doesn't deserve a response at all....

 

[OC for ME]

Another deflection. How many tasers were used by non-cops that killed a citizen? How many homicides were perpetrated by cops discharging a firearm?

When you wish to discuss the points I have made I will respond. Until then.....

fini

 

[WalkingWolf]

Another deflection. How many tasers were used by non-cops that killed a citizen? How many homicides were perpetrated by cops discharging a firearm?

When you wish to discuss the points I have made I will respond. Until then.....

fini

How many murders were committed with a firearm? See where this is going?

The Brady Bunch would be proud of you.

 

[SFCRetired]

Damn! Did I start this?

Yes, tasers are classified below a firearm in lethality. No, not everyone tased is killed. But I will still say that a lot more independent (not funded by Taser International or the DOJ) research is needed. There has been entirely too much whitewashing for my tastes.

I just do not buy into the theory that applying umpteen thousand volts, even at a minuscule amperage, is not, at best, highly dangerous. I am also not convinced that the electricity applied only effects the skeletal musculature and not that most critical of muscles, which, incidentally, is electrically controlled, the heart.

There have also been some whispers (undocumented rumors) about the taser being used to elicit confessions. Most of those rumors, so far, have only been whispered about other countries. If any of them are ever proven true, I, for one, would call for either a total ban on the manufacture of tasers or a ban on their export.

Hopefully, someone will come up with some sort of device that will accomplish what the taser accomplishes without inflicting a huge amount of pain and without the risk of death or severe injury that the taser carries.

 

[WalkingWolf]

I have heard rumors of firearm bans in other countries.:uhoh:

Do we really want to ban a tool, instead of holding the users accountable? Seems like a dark road to me.:uhoh:

 

[Running Wolf]

A taser is one more tool in the bag that can be used to resolve a situation without death or injury. Its the same as the bean bag guns. Its one more option to use.

(...snip...)

Here's another aspect... its called deterrence. Guys know tasers hurt and they know we can use them way before we can baton someone or shoot someone. When you show up and you have someone who's lucid and they see the green top or the yellow taser it changes the game. If they don't notice it on your belt when you pull it out it changes the game. I've had guys beg to get oc spray instead of it.

(...snip...)

Basically I feel you focusing on the negative and not looking at the positives it has.

It's worthy of note that one of the uses of this 'tool' is intimidation and coercion. You've labeled it 'deterrence,' however a threat is a threat. I also find it telling that a more effective threat of physical pain is a positive in your view.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

I have heard rumors of firearm bans in other countries.:uhoh:

Do we really want to ban a tool, instead of holding the users accountable? Seems like a dark road to me.:uhoh:

User accountability is essentially nonexistent. Nothing is compelling me to ignore the reality of the blue wall of silence. It's by no accident over 25 major U.S. cities have come under investigation and control of the Department of Justice for corruption and civil rights abuse. The cities have lost control of the police, and the feds step in. Seattle had a body pile of police killed victims growing out of control. The citizens objected and the body pile grew faster. Now Seattle police has a court appointed Monitor. A year into the job, and that Monitor claims little change on the part of police, just different tactics.

Until there is a uniform code of weapon use and independent citizen control boards to review use of force incidents with prosecution powers, there will be no objective accountability. Police investigating police use of force is a joke, only the victims aren't laughing. Until there is accountability, I doubt there'll be much trust.

 

[WalkingWolf]

User accountability is essentially nonexistent. Nothing is compelling me to ignore the reality of the blue wall of silence. It's by no accident over 25 major U.S. cities have come under investigation and control of the Department of Justice for corruption and civil rights abuse. The cities have lost control of the police, and the feds step in. Seattle had a body pile of police killed victims growing out of control. The citizens objected and the body pile grew faster. Now Seattle police has a court appointed Monitor. A year into the job, and that Monitor claims little change on the part of police, just different tactics.

Until there is a uniform code of weapon use and independent citizen control boards to review use of force incidents with prosecution powers, there will be no objective accountability. Police investigating police use of force is a joke, only the victims aren't laughing. Until there is accountability, I doubt there'll be much trust.

If innocent victims are being killed with a taser, what is the difference of them being killed with a baton, or a choke hold? The only way to get accountability is to fight for it, not blame something totally unrelated to the problem. Deaths during arrests non firearms were taking place LONG before the taser.

 

[Primus]

It's worthy of note that one of the uses of this 'tool' is intimidation and coercion. You've labeled it 'deterrence,' however a threat is a threat. I also find it telling that a more effective threat of physical pain is a positive in your view.

Correct Running Wolf. I have zero qualms with stating that if there is a male who is having thoughts of hurting another person either with or without a weapon, I want him to fear getting hurt worse by me and the Taser. If that fear causes him to cease and desist his behavior that will cause an injury of himself or another then a win.

When dealing with certain guys physical pain is the only way to get them to stop. Have you heard of Bath Salts? Go to YouTube and enter Bath Salts. Then think to yourself how to get a guy/girl like that under control. How about drunks? Or just guys who are just extremely mad and have authority issues. Some guys actually WANT to FIGHT police (probably a few reading this). Well they tend to think twice when they see or feel the Taser. Again, don't act violent and you won't get Tased.... (not by me anyways, any other guy who does take it up with them).

 

[Primus]

Accountability

Also, for those the question the accountability of Tasers, ours actually have a micro chip in it that records any and all uses. So for example, if I were to Tase someone for no reason (never happen) and then leave. They could file a complaint. My Taser would get pulled and they would actually check the chip to see if/when it was used. It'll tell them how many times, how long of a duration, etc. All of our catridges are also serial numbered and tracked. This information goes with us to court if/when it ever comes up. There have been cases where the Judge has ruled ok the first 3 hits have been good, but no the 4th hit was un needed. And again, most (all I would bet) require a Use of Force report to be filed if/when the Taser is applied. This along with the data from the Taser is what is used to determine if the cop was being exessive or not.

There's actually MORE accountability with the Taser then say a Baton. How do you track how many strikes to the body? Bruises? Maybe.

Again, Tasers are a good thing for both sides.

 

[Primus]

If innocent victims are being killed with a taser, what is the difference of them being killed with a baton, or a choke hold? The only way to get accountability is to fight for it, not blame something totally unrelated to the problem. Deaths during arrests non firearms were taking place LONG before the taser.

I'm actually agreeing with you WW. +1

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

If innocent victims are being killed with a taser, what is the difference of them being killed with a baton, or a choke hold? The only way to get accountability is to fight for it, not blame something totally unrelated to the problem. Deaths during arrests non firearms were taking place LONG before the taser.

Until the accountability issue is repaired, it is immoral to put tools of torture in the hands of unaccountable, unethical and morally corrupt people.