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Taunting

xRapidDavex

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What would the appropriate response be when a person attempts to take your gun from your holster? If you have a knife, does it seem justified to do this ? Let's say in a surprise grab for your gun when you were in condition yellow.

Basically, I need to know where to read about the situations where deadly force is justified.... basically I need Mitch's book NOW. Where is it?
 

xRapidDavex

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He's supposed to have a book dedicated to the use of deadly force, not his book on Utah's firearms laws.
 

GeneticsDave

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Like I said before, that book isn't out yet.

If someone tries to take your firearm, I would not hesitate to draw on them and call the police to apprehend. Trying to take your weapon from you shows their intent to obtain and use your weapon.
 

xRapidDavex

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GeneticsDave wrote:
Like I said before, that book isn't out yet.

If someone tries to take your firearm, I would not hesitate to draw on them and call the police to apprehend. Trying to take your weapon from you shows their intent to obtain and use your weapon.
Draw and point AT them, or just draw and point down in a ready position?

Edit: At that point, if you're in a struggle, would it be okay to use a knife against the person?
 

thx997303

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I would think that if you were in a struggle, where the offending party is trying to take your gun, you would be justified in shooting them, so yes you would be justified in using a knife.
 

swillden

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xRapidDavex wrote:
What would the appropriate response be when a person attempts to take your gun from your holster? If you have a knife, does it seem justified to do this ? Let's say in a surprise grab for your gun when you were in condition yellow.
I carry OC spray for exactly this reason. It gives me an option to defend against an unarmed opponent without resorting to deadly force. If I'm carrying a gun, especially openly, I do NOT want to get into a fistfight or a wrestling match, because the other guy may be able to grab my gun. But if the other guy doesn't have some advantage over me, I can't use my gun to keep him away. Pepper spray is a good answer.

As for the knife, a gun and a knife are both deadly weapons, so I don't think it makes sense to pull a knife to defend against a gun grab, unless there's some reason you can't pull the gun yourself. I view a knife as a backup weapon that doesn't jam, run out of ammunition, etc., not as a lower level of force than the gun.

I carry a gun to protect my life, pepper spray to protect my gun and a cellphone to protect my freedom. My knife is primarily a tool, not a weapon, but it can definitely serve as a weapon in case the gun doesn't work.
 

scorpioajr

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xRapidDavex wrote:
Does anyone have tips/stories about diffusing a taunting situation?? What did/would you say in this type of situation?

As in the "So you think you're a tough guy carrying a gun huh?" situation.

I'd be like ," No, but i DO feel Patriotic!"
 

Liko81

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xRapidDavex wrote:
GeneticsDave wrote:
Like I said before, that book isn't out yet.

If someone tries to take your firearm, I would not hesitate to draw on them and call the police to apprehend. Trying to take your weapon from you shows their intent to obtain and use your weapon.
Draw and point AT them, or just draw and point down in a ready position?

Edit: At that point, if you're in a struggle, would it be okay to use a knife against the person?
If you feel you should draw, you draw and point AT. Drawing down is generally viewed as an attempt to intimidate and is rarely justifiable. Drawing on is viewed as a defensive posture and is justifiable if the threat was of a nature where you felt in fear for your life.

If you are justified in drawing and readying a gun, you are justified in drawing and readying a knife. However, a knife is a back-up tool for scenarios that have become truly FUBAR. There is a continuum of force, and if you want to you can carry less lethal options such as pepper spray or a collapsible baton (careful; many states require a permit for baton use), however a gun, knife and taser are, in most jurisdictions, considered deadly weapons and their use is deadly force. In that case, logic states that you should use the most effective out of these weapons, since you're required to have the same justification.

To answer your original question, verbal taunting should be answered verbally, or not at all. If you choose to say something, it's your choice what tack to take; you can be a smartass, you can be upfront and direct, or you can wittily put the taunter down. DO NOT TAUNT BACK, AND DO NOT PROVOKE. You lose ALL justification for use of force if you do as it then becomes your word against his when deciding who instigated the fight. Regardless, you're armed, so you WILL be seen as the aggressor absent clear justification for use of force.

Personally, if asked "oh, so you think you're a big man because you carry a gun?", I would respond while still walking, "No, I think I'm areal man because I don't have to follow real men around trying to pick a fight". Use every opportunity to blow them off. If you stop and engage them, they're winning. They are trying to get a rise out of you.

If it progresses to physical contact, that is assault, which is use of force. In some States (I live in Texas, and it's true here) the threat of deadly force counts as the use of force, which is justifiable when faced with the threat of unlawful force. So, if he goes for your gun, tries to shove you, gets in your face or something similar, youmay nowbe justified in drawing on your assailant (because that's what he's become). You can also find yourself charged with armed assault, so be VERY careful and exercise EXTREME discretion regarding if and when to draw.
 

GeneticsDave

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Sorry Liko but I disagree.


Drawing down is far better than drawing AT. If you draw AT and don't fire, you have aggravated assault. Drawing down is justifiable. You can say that you felt threatened and were preparing to fire if the threat did not cease their threatening behavior. Drawing down shows your preparedness to respond, but does not give you aggravated assault charges should the person stand down.

I also disagree with trying to spout off comebacks, especially ones about being a "real man" or something else. This will most likely only escalate the situation. What you want to do it leave without saying anything or if they try to get up in your face, take a giant step back while holding one hand up and shouting, "STOP!!" If they come at you, you draw and yell, "STOP! Or I'll shoot!" If they keep coming, you defend yourself accordingly. Witty or wittless comebacks only escalate the situation and could be viewed as such in court. Yelling "STOP!!!" gets everyone's attention and gives you support in court that you not only gave the person a chance to avoid the situation, but you also tried to avoid it.

The problem with your assault statement is that you feel that someone has to physically assault you before you can use deadly force. If that's how Texas is, I feel bad for you all. By the time someone is close enough to push you, it may be too late to draw and shoot unless you run backwards a bit - hard to do. If they are that close, you are probably going down to the ground and you have lost any tactical advantage the sidearm affords. By drawing down at a distance you offer them a chance to back out while still letting them know you are ready to defend yourself. No court in Utah would find you guilty if you felt your life were in danger.
 

xRapidDavex

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swillden wrote:
xRapidDavex wrote:
What would the appropriate response be when a person attempts to take your gun from your holster? If you have a knife, does it seem justified to do this ? Let's say in a surprise grab for your gun when you were in condition yellow.
I carry OC spray for exactly this reason. It gives me an option to defend against an unarmed opponent without resorting to deadly force. If I'm carrying a gun, especially openly, I do NOT want to get into a fistfight or a wrestling match, because the other guy may be able to grab my gun. But if the other guy doesn't have some advantage over me, I can't use my gun to keep him away. Pepper spray is a good answer.

As for the knife, a gun and a knife are both deadly weapons, so I don't think it makes sense to pull a knife to defend against a gun grab, unless there's some reason you can't pull the gun yourself. I view a knife as a backup weapon that doesn't jam, run out of ammunition, etc., not as a lower level of force than the gun.

I carry a gun to protect my life, pepper spray to protect my gun and a cellphone to protect my freedom. My knife is primarily a tool, not a weapon, but it can definitely serve as a weapon in case the gun doesn't work.
Okay.... so you spray the guy and he keeps coming at you.... what is the next step? At this point, he is probably close enough for only a split second decision.


Genetics Dave: I agree with what you posted just above this, but where are you getting your info (I would like to read it myself)? Or is this just something you thought of yourself/heard from others?
 

GeneticsDave

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Most of this comes from training at Front Sight Firearms Institute. They train people from all over the US, so the training standard is designed so that what they train you to do is legally acceptable in all states (except those that are super liberal and don't allow self-defense with a firearm).

This is also the same information taught by Massad Ayoob and Gunsite. I hope that people aren't too apprehensive about using their firearm. If you feel your life is being threatened, I would hope you use it in a heartbeat.

For example: Anytime anyone is within 20 feet of you, they are within a distance where your primary choice for self-defense should be your firearm. Most people can cover 20 feet in less than 2 seconds. How fast can you draw from the holster and hit a moving target 2-3 times? Hopefully in about 1.7 seconds - meaning that the person you just shot still runs (or falls) into you (with 3 holes in him). Place your shots, sidestep and reevaluate your situation.

If you ever watch Cops, you will see that any time a LEO feels threatened, they draw their firearm outside of 20 feet. They use tazers and OC spray to obtain compliance, not to stop a threat. It seems that this is the standard operating procedure and it would seem that if that is how LEOs are supposed to remain safe, it might be a good way to keep yourself out of danger as well.
 

swillden

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xRapidDavex wrote:
Okay.... so you spray the guy and he keeps coming at you.... what is the next step? At this point, he is probably close enough for only a split second decision.
If he's tough enough to take the OC and keep coming, I consider him a threat to my life and go to the gun.
 

GeneticsDave

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BTW: I like OC for unarmed threats. I don't carry it, so that's why I said what I said. If I can find room on my bat-belt, I might get some OC in the near future.
 
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