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The UN

aktion

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''Good grief, I love the quote, but it does get old reading over and over again. By all means, take up arms, you and your little posse of patriots.''

''Let's get back to basics here and realize that there really is no vast conspiracy on the governments part to kick in our doors and make us all slaves to big business, Socialism, Communism or whatever.''

Disregarding the hyperbole, I disagree with you there. I'll leave it at that for now.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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''Good grief, I love the quote, but it does get old reading over and over again. By all means, take up arms, you and your little posse of patriots.''

''Let's get back to basics here and realize that there really is no vast conspiracy on the governments part to kick in our doors and make us all slaves to big business, Socialism, Communism or whatever.''

Disregarding the hyperbole, I disagree with you there. I'll leave it at that for now.

OK, so I was exaggerating a little bit LOL. Smile, it's Wednesday.
 

END_THE_FED

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I am patriotic, I also read Freedom magazine and some of the other patriotic firearm magazines that recount about the Liberties our forefathers spilled their blood for on the battlefield. I am just saying, with no intent of being offensive, that when you write it, I get this picture of you in battle gear, in your house, reloading ammo every night, frothing at the mouth for the collapse of the Federal Government.

Let's get back to basics here and realize that there really is no vast conspiracy on the governments part to kick in our doors and make us all slaves to big business, Socialism, Communism or whatever.

We are in for a bumpy road in the coming years, and the last thing we all need is saber rattling, and people wringing their hands, hoping that all hell breaks loose on the streets of America so those who fear gun-grabbers can say "I told you so."

When it comes to that topic those are four words I hope I will never be able to say.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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When it comes to that topic those are four words I hope I will never be able to say.

I can not tell the future, but I am 99% positive it won't happen. If it does happen I am 99% positive the public will be so complacent at that point that confiscation will nearly go off without issue--I hope that wouldn't be the case--but I have little faith in the conviction of my fellow gun-toters and even less faith in Americans in whole.
 

devildoc5

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The UN wasn't around when hitler was around, the League of Nations was. Just small correction. But good point they both are useless organizations. Other than that I was going to stay out of this thread.

Actually technically there were a total of 6 MAJOR nations that formed the League of Nations (others were around too but they were small time compared to the major six)

Anyone wanna guess who they were?

Here's a hint: FDR, Winston Churchill, Adolf Hitler, Benito Moussilini, Paul Reynaud and Hirohito.

3 of these countries left the League of Nations and formed the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis of Power.

Now since the League of Nations is the precursor to the UN can anyone tell me exactly HOW it (UN or LoN) is effective at doing anything other than wasting time and money and bickering back and forth?

Personal opinion FYI
 

Metalhead47

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I can not tell the future, but I am 99% positive it won't happen. If it does happen I am 99% positive the public will be so complacent at that point that confiscation will nearly go off without issue--I hope that wouldn't be the case--but I have little faith in the conviction of my fellow gun-toters and even less faith in Americans in whole.


Interesting. Not meaning to attack you here, just making an observation if the above statement is, in fact, indicative of your general mindset. Based on that last part, that you have so little faith in Americans, perhaps that's why so many here (myself included) have been so quick to label you a liberal. The base idea behind liberalism is lack of faith in people to do the right thing (so they must be made to do the right thing, by those who are their betters). Perhaps liberalism has been confused with cynicism.

I think that contrasts with the general mindset of most of the others around here, who do have faith in their fellow Americans, at least up to a certain point. Especially their fellow gun-toters. I was really starting to wonder about my fellow Americans myself, up until recently. The "grassroots resistance" that has come roaring to life over the past few months has given me back at least a glimmer of hope. Someone said in another post that Obama might be the greatest thing to happen to this country, since he and his administration are what finally brought that resistance to the forefront, woke people up. Sometimes, especially here in America, we need a very rude jolt to bring us out of our complacency.
 

gogodawgs

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How so?

How to 'they' have a duty to POTUS?



Wishful thinking on your part. There might be some that will not obey orders, but they have a duty to the President Of The United States.

Yes, there are armed citizens but given the lax response post-assault weapons ban in the early nineties...I will put my money on complacency.
 

devildoc5

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How to 'they' have a duty to POTUS?

The oath of enlistment in no way shape or form contains any references to any person specifically other than the POTUS.

However, it is a hierarchical oath in that the first things mentioned trump the last things mentioned.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
So the very FIRST thing mentioned is the one that is most important and can never be trumped by anything else, the next one can only be trumped by the first and so on and so forth.

Therefore while it does say
I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
it is important to note two things.

1. the highlighted part is a stipulation to the previous line about following the orders of POTUS and officers.

2. the POTUS is mentioned AFTER the Constitution and therefore is the POTUS orders something in violation of the Constitution, it is that service members DUTY to refuse those orders.

However I can see where some might be confused about this.

The UCMJ is also very explicit about what constitutes a lawful order and what constitutes an unlawful order. Unlawful orders would be NOT in accordance with...the Uniform Code of Military Justice so any of those circumstances would not apply either.

Hope this clears up some of the confusion a little bit.
 
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gogodawgs

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The oath of enlistment in no way shape or form contains any references to any person specifically other than the POTUS.

However, it is a hierarchical oath in that the first things mentioned trump the last things mentioned.

So the very FIRST thing mentioned is the one that is most important and can never be trumped by anything else, the next one can only be trumped by the first and so on and so forth.

Therefore while it does say it is important to note two things.

1. the highlighted part is a stipulation to the previous line about following the orders of POTUS and officers.

2. the POTUS is mentioned AFTER the Constitution and therefore is the POTUS orders something in violation of the Constitution, it is that service members DUTY to refuse those orders.

However I can see where some might be confused about this.

The UCMJ is also very explicit about what constitutes a lawful order and what constitutes an unlawful order. Unlawful orders would be NOT in accordance with...the Uniform Code of Military Justice so any of those circumstances would not apply either.

Hope this clears up some of the confusion a little bit.

And the 1 million civilian police officers of the multitude of jurisdictions? They have no duty to follow POTUS.
 

devildoc5

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I coulda swore Ruby said "soldiers".....

Or am I just that crazy that I am making up forum posts? AGAIN!!! LOL :)

Thought the doctor said he had fixed that problem in my brain, or am I making that part up too? :question:
 

gogodawgs

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I coulda swore Ruby said "soldiers".....

Or am I just that crazy that I am making up forum posts? AGAIN!!! LOL :)

Thought the doctor said he had fixed that problem in my brain, or am I making that part up too? :question:

The conversation earlier was fairly generic relating to federal authority, martial law, etc...
But you cannot make those arguments in a static environment, the decisions would be better consumed in a dynamic sense. Because the military is only approximately 3 million (active and reserve) it could not take on a country the size of the U.S.

How would the local police react? Certainly they wouldn't just sit there and do nothing...

How many would ignore the order, how many are Oath Keepers, how many would sit and do nothing.... how many would pick the other side....

Remember, these folks are American citizens and have homes, families and the like... it is very different in a dynamic sense when you are talking about your own land versus a foreign land.

As Sylvia pointed out...how much complacency would take place? How much extremist activity would take place?

My point is that while the UCMJ gives a chain of command to be followed there is complex level of loyalty that would take place on home soil.
 

Metalhead47

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The conversation earlier was fairly generic relating to federal authority, martial law, etc...
But you cannot make those arguments in a static environment, the decisions would be better consumed in a dynamic sense. Because the military is only approximately 3 million (active and reserve) it could not take on a country the size of the U.S.

How would the local police react? Certainly they wouldn't just sit there and do nothing...

How many would ignore the order, how many are Oath Keepers, how many would sit and do nothing.... how many would pick the other side....

Remember, these folks are American citizens and have homes, families and the like... it is very different in a dynamic sense when you are talking about your own land versus a foreign land.

As Sylvia pointed out...how much complacency would take place? How much extremist activity would take place?

My point is that while the UCMJ gives a chain of command to be followed there is complex level of loyalty that would take place on home soil.

Exactly. Groups of various sizes all the way down the chain of command would start to splinter off, each thinking "they" had the proper interpretation of what was lawful & what was duty. I think LEOs are a big wild-card in all that. Then factor in a few million armed citizens, who may or may not (probably would) outnumber LEO and military forces combined, also with very complex loyalties and interpretation of who's actions were legitimate, and the situation would very quickly turn... ugly.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I have more faith in our Military boys to do what is right than local or Federal Law Enforcement. Most Law Enforcement nowadays work for politicians. This is why we need to work for limiting Federal and local law. They truly are turning into the standing army Thomas Jefferson Warned us about.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Interesting. Not meaning to attack you here, just making an observation if the above statement is, in fact, indicative of your general mindset. Based on that last part, that you have so little faith in Americans, perhaps that's why so many here (myself included) have been so quick to label you a liberal. The base idea behind liberalism is lack of faith in people to do the right thing (so they must be made to do the right thing, by those who are their betters). Perhaps liberalism has been confused with cynicism.

I think that contrasts with the general mindset of most of the others around here, who do have faith in their fellow Americans, at least up to a certain point. Especially their fellow gun-toters. I was really starting to wonder about my fellow Americans myself, up until recently. The "grassroots resistance" that has come roaring to life over the past few months has given me back at least a glimmer of hope. Someone said in another post that Obama might be the greatest thing to happen to this country, since he and his administration are what finally brought that resistance to the forefront, woke people up. Sometimes, especially here in America, we need a very rude jolt to bring us out of our complacency.

I am merely stating that when it comes to the issue of firearms, American tend to talk a good game. The "assault weapons ban" is a prime example. There is a ban and no one does anything about it. The "assault weapons ban" was not defeated, it expired. I am a liberal--I am also a realist that has the ability to take observations from past experience an apply them to the current day.

"Grassroots resistance" is nothing more than a handful of "tea-party," i.e. Conservatives who have a political agenda, just like all other organizations. Americans ARE complacent. Hopefully Americans will in time become less complacent, but that is not human nature IMO.

Sara Mae!!!!!
i dont want to start a fight, but im really having trouble understanding your positions here!

i dont want want to call you, or associate a poster on a gun rights forum Sylvia Plathe!
someone that is so lost, that has no hope, no faith in humanity, no reason to carry on.
you have always reeked of strength, stamina, self reliance, righteousness and resolve!

you think there is only 1% chance this country is in deep trouble?
you think there is only 1 % chance that the public will try to restore our rights?
you think an illegal gun confiscation will go off nearly without issue?
I think you are wrong.
American gun totters are the main reason that gun confiscations have Not been tried!
Americans in the whole are the main reason that this America is still "The land of the Free and the home of the Brave!
I dont hope for the collapse of my government, so i can have a revolution.
I hope to restore my government to its rightful place, by the soap box and the ballot box!
If eventually it gets to the point that non violent methods prove inadequate, the ammo box will be required!

Not that I am trying to keep my name a secret on here, but I would prefer a bit of discretion, please. You might not agree with my views, but to throw my name out online like this, without asking is inappropriate. I have faith in humanity, but it is little due to the things that I observe. The simple act of observation and logic leads me to conclude that humanity by nature is self-destructive...how do we tame that urge? God, the barrel of a gun, nuclear weapons, you tell me, how!

Americans are definitely brave, but complacency has set in, since the seventies there has been a decline.

How to 'they' have a duty to POTUS?

President Obama is the commander of the US military, you might not be aware of that fact. So, they have a duty to the commander and to the country, but most importantly, to the Federal Government. I know that is a hard pill to swallow, but that's the way our system of government is structured.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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I have more faith in our Military boys to do what is right than local or Federal Law Enforcement. Most Law Enforcement nowadays work for politicians. This is why we need to work for limiting Federal and local law. They truly are turning into the standing army Thomas Jefferson Warned us about.

The military boys and girls you speak of work for the Federal Government, and are directed, by the power of the Constitution, by the President of the United States.

I am acknowledging government is corrupt, it is very corrupt, and something needs to be done about it. Remember though, people vote these politicians in, they aren't selected out of a hat.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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Exactly. Groups of various sizes all the way down the chain of command would start to splinter off, each thinking "they" had the proper interpretation of what was lawful & what was duty. I think LEOs are a big wild-card in all that. Then factor in a few million armed citizens, who may or may not (probably would) outnumber LEO and military forces combined, also with very complex loyalties and interpretation of who's actions were legitimate, and the situation would very quickly turn... ugly.

You know, I have to admit that as time passes I begin to question the power of 80 million+ armed citizens. There is a lot of arguing going on in firearm forums about what to do. Could you imagine an unorganized group of people, yes firearm owners are unorganized, getting together to act as a force. The military, hell the local police would have gun owners a$$ for lunch, guaranteed.

I think firearm owners should stick with the ballot box and making sure their neighborhoods are organized, just in case the system collapses.
 

Metalhead47

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I am merely stating that when it comes to the issue of firearms, American tend to talk a good game. The "assault weapons ban" is a prime example. There is a ban and no one does anything about it. The "assault weapons ban" was not defeated, it expired. I am a liberal--I am also a realist that has the ability to take observations from past experience an apply them to the current day.

"Grassroots resistance" is nothing more than a handful of "tea-party," i.e. Conservatives who have a political agenda, just like all other organizations. Americans ARE complacent. Hopefully Americans will in time become less complacent, but that is not human nature IMO.

Um, yeah... they have a political agenda... that's the point. The agenda is resisting and undoing the expansion of government that we have been complacent about for too long. You speak like the tea party is trying to keep its political ideals a secret, the whole point of the "organization" is to trumpet its political ideals and demonstrate that they are not, or no longer, complacent. I think that movement, and other recent ones, are the first awakening of an America that is becoming less complacent. But we, as a nation, do have a really bad habit of hitting the snooze alarm too much. :banghead:
 

Metalhead47

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You know, I have to admit that as time passes I begin to question the power of 80 million+ armed citizens. There is a lot of arguing going on in firearm forums about what to do. Could you imagine an unorganized group of people, yes firearm owners are unorganized, getting together to act as a force. The military, hell the local police would have gun owners a$$ for lunch, guaranteed.

I think firearm owners should stick with the ballot box and making sure their neighborhoods are organized, just in case the system collapses.

Remember what a bunch of unorganized gun owners did about 230 years ago:D

Here's the numbers I look at: If only 10% of that 80 million stands up, that's an army 8 million strong. No country in the world, or group of counties, could field an army that strong. And among those 8 million would be the best trained, and best equipped of gun oners. The militia types, the former military. I think an unorganized group of armed citizens, lead by a few of the "gurus" who really know their stuff on the matter, would be a major force to be reckoned with. Just look at the challenge a bunch of dedicated sheep herders with AK-47s can pose to our troops overseas.
 
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