WCI Chairman Nik Clark and Madison Police Chief Noble Wray on Wisconsin Eye

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

I don't know if there was a 2nd 911 call. It may well have been to the police non-emergency number. It appears to me the MPD just keeps throwing non-specific comments about this case hoping to mire everyone in confusion and ambiguity.

Yesterday was the first I heard of a second phone call.

True... If there was anything more damning in the 2nd call, they would of quoted it in the memo. Also, the chief generally mentioned that it was about the same content as the 1st.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but WCI hasn't actually filed the ORR yet. The original 911 tape was obtained by Mike, the site administrator, and made available to us as part of his article.

 

[J.Gleason]

I don't know if there was a 2nd 911 call. It may well have been to the police non-emergency number. It appears to me the MPD just keeps throwing non-specific comments about this case hoping to mire everyone in confusion and ambiguity.

Yesterday was the first I heard of a second phone call.

But if WCI has submitted an Open Records Request then that 2nd call should have been included in that information whether it was made through the 911 system or not as it is related to the same incident. Therefore, the MPD is in violation of the federal law.

If there is no information, the Chief Wray is lying and this should be exploited to the media so everyone knows the truth. Seems he isn't very "Noble " is he? Guess he is afraid people like his son may be out there carrying guns.

 

[TyGuy]

I propose that over the weekend you get some friends together, get your favorite liquour, and then play the Noble Wray Drinking Game! Every time he says "totality of circumstances" you take a drink. You'll be quite gone by the end of that debate.

 

[TyGuy]

Guess he is afraid people like his son may be out there carrying guns.

Being a FIB I didn't understand what you mean, but a little Google-Fu and I found out. Wow, probation for stealing $15,000. I hope that he won't make the same mistake again. It's terrible to see your children make such poor decisions.

http://www.channel3000.com/news/20436738/detail.html

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

I propose that over the weekend you get some friends together, get your favorite liquour, and then play the Noble Wray Drinking Game! Every time he says "totality of circumstances" you take a drink. You'll be quite gone by the end of that debate.

Indeed. "totality of circumstances" and "case by case basis"

Its interesting, when government officials can't provide you factual explanations they run and hide behind ambiguity and false assumptions instead of just admitting they were wrong. "Connect the dots" (insert eye roll here)

 

[TyGuy]

Oh yeah, I forgot about "case by case". I think that you have to take two shots then.

I might have to try this when I get home from my Appleseed event on Saturday evening.

 

[Viper]

Outstanding job Nik.

Nik appeared much calmer answering the interview questions than the chief did. The chief did a lot of fidgeting.

Did anyone else get the impression that the chief was implicitly begging anyone who sees another open carrying to call 911 even though there is no disturbance?

Shouldn't he instead be informing the public not to call 911 when there is no disturbance keeping those lines available for actual emergencies.

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

Outstanding job Nik.

Nik appeared much calmer answering the interview questions than the chief did. The chief did a lot of fidgeting.

Did anyone else get the impression that the chief was implicitly begging anyone who sees another open carrying to call 911 even though there is no disturbance?

Shouldn't he instead be informing the public not to call 911 when there is no disturbance keeping those lines available for actual emergencies.

Yes.

He should be informing people "open-carry is legal" and that you shouldn't fear exercising your right to open-carry so long as YOU don't do anything illegal. So as long as YOU don't threaten anyone, so long as YOU don't brandish your weapon, so long as YOU don't behave inappropriately.

INSTEAD he's trying to scare people with ambiguity and suggesting that "depending on what a caller FEELS" it doesn't matter that YOU don't do anything wrong, you may be illegally detained, illegally searched, weapon illegally seized, and charged with DC depending on the "totality of circumstances".

He's saying one day, you could walk your dog armed, and as long as no one calls police and no one is 'worried', you won't be cited and what you did was lawful. But do the SAME thing a day later and an old lady in Madison see's you and gets worried and calls police and NOW (even though you did NOTHING different than the day before) the "totality of circumstances" are such that on a "case by case" basis you could be charged with DC.

net effect, a chilling of the right to carry because its a random roll-of-the-dice how ONE other person might "feel".

 

[Brass Magnet]

Several posts with questions that were not responded too, unanswered emails, etc.etc. etc.

You don't have to be on someones ignore list for that. I can ignore stuff I can see too. :lol::lol:

 

[CUOfficer]

This was a very good watch. The chief said multiple times that "the prescense of someone open-carrying a firearm, absent other circumstances, does not warrant disorderly conduct." I was waiting for Nik to turn to him and ask him what conduct the men at Culvers demonstrated, less not giving an ID, that warranted the charges. Even so, why are all 5 ticketed with DC when only two didn't produce ID? The other 3 cooperated so why the charges?

 

[TyGuy]

This was a very good watch. The chief said multiple times that "the prescense of someone open-carrying a firearm, absent other circumstances, does not warrant disorderly conduct." I was waiting for Nik to turn to him and ask him what conduct the men at Culvers demonstrated, less not giving an ID, that warranted the charges. Even so, why are all 5 ticketed with DC when only two didn't produce ID? The other 3 cooperated so why the charges?

I was thinking the same thing, and the only thing I came up with was perhaps they agreed not to direct questions at each other, but to allow the moderator to ask the questions, or perhaps since it's a legal case now they can not discuss the details.

I also thought it might have been because the men got fries instead of cheese curds, which could be disturbing to people up in WI.

 

[J.Gleason]

Funny thing was, the chief had the perfect opportunity to tell the people in his city the truth about OC and he blew it.
He could have made a simple statement and said, open Carry is legal unless there are other circumstances such as the person removing the firearm from the holster and waving it around for example. Instead he used the segment for his hidden agenda to rally the troops to make calls for big brother to come and arrest law abiding. What an idiot.

 

[The Don]

Just watched it myself. All the way through, but most noticeably at the end, the chief looks pretty...well, let's call it petulant...every time he wraps up one of his answers. Kinda like he knows he's on the losing side of this issue and he really doesn't like that (or understand why) people aren't just blindly accepting his answers and this isn't going away.

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

I was thinking the same thing, and the only thing I came up with was perhaps they agreed not to direct questions at each other, but to allow the moderator to ask the questions, or perhaps since it's a legal case now they can not discuss the details.

I already knew his answer and I guess thats why I didn't think to ask it again.

There was a great deal of conversation before they began taping and after the taping was over, I had a hard time remembering which questions and comments I had made before the tape was rolling and which after.

His answer is the same thing every time. When you ask what the guys did that was disorderly he says "well its the totality of circumstances" and "they don't have to actually cause a disturbance just that their conduct tends to cause a disturbance" and then he points to Judge Adelman's decision.

As soon as Chief Wray and his sidekick (spokesman) Joel Despain walked in Joel was telling me "you know Nik, we really aren't that far apart on this issue" and I was like "oh really" and he had photocopies of Judge Adelman's decision with the conjecture-based assumptions about "open carry is virtually certain to cause panic" etc.

I do regret not challenging the Chief to explain for OTHER people who don't want to suffer the wrath of Madison PD and DC charges what THEY should avoid doing to not end up in the same situation, which is a little more pointed than asking what did the Madison 5 do.

When you ask "what did they do" he can answer "well its the totality of the circumstances" (reminds me of the wind-up toy's that you pull the string and get the same answer every time) I think Joel Despain must have been drilling the Chief with flash-cars that said "totality of circumstances" and "case by case situation" on the way to the panel discussion.

When you ask "for the sake of others tell them what not to do" he would have had to say "don't open-carry in Culvers" or something more specific which I could have pointed out as unconstitutional or outside of the laws of Wisconsin. Then again, he may have said "its just a case-by-case thing"

 

[Rich B]

Nik, no matter what regrets you may have or any criticism you receive, you did a great job.

I don't live in Wisconsin, but I am proud of you and your group and the work you are doing.

 

[TyGuy]

I think that you did a great job Nik. Everyone can always look back at such circumstances and think of things that they would have changed, but you came across as level headed and informed.

The Cheif wasn't able to explain what consitutes disorderly conduct in regards to OC.

 

[Wisconsin Carry Inc. - Chairman]

I think that you did a great job Nik. Everyone can always look back at such circumstances and think of things that they would have changed, but you came across as level headed and informed.

The Cheif wasn't able to explain what consitutes disorderly conduct in regards to OC.

I'll be doing a radio interview on Monday morning for Wisconsin Public Radio. 7 - 7:30 AM

I plan to pose the specific question to the audience that Chief Wray, acknowledging people have a right to open-carry, what specifically will net a DC charge from his department.

And then I'll add that all over the state there is no ambiguity. No "totality of circumstances" when it comes to open-carry. If the person open-carry doesn't threaten, doesn't brandish, doesn't do anything, they don't get charged with DC. All over the state, people can go in Culvers, mow down a butterburger and fries and they don't get charged with DC. Why is Madison different.

 

[paul@paul-fisher.com]

I also thought it might have been because the men got fries instead of cheese curds, which could be disturbing to people up in WI.

Hey! I got a 2 piece fried chicken dinner (breast and leg), a tall chocolate malt (I probably caused a disturbance because I slurped at the end), cheese curds and green beans as sides.

 

[McX]

totality of circumstances = totalitarian government.

 

[J.Gleason]

Totalitarian = Tyrannical