Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting

[Jack House]

If you honestly believe that size and age are more important than strength, stature, speed, endurance, experience and training. Then you have never had any real martial arts training, or any sort of fight training for that matter. Let alone a years worth.

 

[Animus]

...I don't believe that, nor have I ever (purposefully) said anything remotely similar.

 

[MamabearCali]

Treyvon was armed. With two fists fully capable of beating a person in a lethal manner. You may not think you would need a weapon to defend yourself, but it appears by his injuries that Zimmerman did.

 

[Jack House]

I don't buy that a 6', 160 lb kid with a little weed in his system could be dangerous to a grown man with probably 50 lbs on him unless he's armed or on heroine (I still contend that he'd have to be acting in his own self-defense to overcome the aggression-lowering effects of THC).

You said that because Zimmerman is shorter, older and weighs more that he should have had the advantage. So yes, you certainly did.

 

[JoeSparky]

When you are talking about your life, there are no queensberry rules, no guessing if you can take him in a fist fight or whatever. You shouldn't have to. He has no right to put his hands on you. Also, there is always somebody out there, regardless of height and weight that can whip your ass. No matter how bad-ass an individual is. When you're talking about survival, anything goes!

Exactly, and has been said by another who is unknown to me.... "IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A FAIR FIGHT, YOUR TACTICS SUCK!" Emphasis ON PURPOSE!

 

[Animus]

You said that because Zimmerman is shorter, older and weighs more that he should have had the advantage. So yes, you certainly did.

First I never mentioned age, and I only said that he should be stronger because of their differences in build. I never addressed any other factors nor did I say explicitly or implicitly that one is more important than another. This isn't the first time I've seen you misunderstand someone's comment.

 

[MAC702]

...and they sufficed in the two cases they were needed so far...

If you have already had to defend yourself against attacks twice, there is a common denominator that needs some serious scrutiny.

 

[hjmoosejaw]

Exactly, and has been said by another who is unknown to me.... "IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A FAIR FIGHT, YOUR TACTICS SUCK!" Emphasis ON PURPOSE!

I like your quote: "IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A FAIR FIGHT, YOUR TACTICS SUCK!" I'll have to remember that.

 

[Animus]

If you have already had to defend yourself against attacks twice, there is a common denominator that needs some serious scrutiny.

It's not my fault a good chunk of the local populace hate pretty much everything about me. If my choices are between compromising my values and conforming to everyone else, staying home 24/7 or getting out and enjoying myself, potentially risking my safety because some of the people around me are full of hate, I'll take Door #3. For 15 years Option 1 was attempted and ruled to be a depressing endeavour, for 3 Option 2 was boring and equally miserable, and interestingly enough, that's actually when the mentioned incidents occurred.

Regardless it's not because I made stupid decisions or inserted myself into potentially dangerous situations, hell I was walking to my locker and to a friend's house just down the street, respectively.

 

[Jack House]

Oh I understood your comment just fine. Perhaps it is you that does not understand what you said. So here, I'll break it down for you.

I don't buy that a 6', 160 lb kid with a little weed in his system could be dangerous to a grown man with probably 50 lbs on him unless he's armed or on heroine (I still contend that he'd have to be acting in his own self-defense to overcome the aggression-lowering effects of THC). Zimmerman's shorter and by all appearances heavier (but not obese), meaning he should have a significant strength advantage even if Trayvon was in better shape, and I'm still having trouble justifying using a weapon against an unarmed person.

Reference to age: When you emphasized the age difference by utilizing the word/phrase "kid" and "grown man," you mad their age an important factor in why you believe Zimmerman had the advantage.

Reference to weight: Again, by mentioning the weight differences you have made it an important factor in your determination that Z had the advantage.

Reference to size: Being short can be an advantage, but not usually. However, you seemed to insinuate that because Z is shorter he should be stronger. Wut?

That's all you mentioned, insinuating those are the key factors which gave Z an advantage. However you completely ignored the fact that Zimmerman weighs more because he's fat, not because he's a body builder. Just because a person is fat, does not make them strong. They may be a bit stronger than the average scrawny man, but not by much.

Martin was an athlete, a football player, this is something else you have ignored. This is why he was in better shape, something you dismissed. Being that Martin was athletic and Zimmerman was overweight, Martin more likely than not had speed, strength and endurance over Zimmerman. Furthermore, as a football player, Martin would have better training and experience for tackling and pinning people than Zimmerman, an overweight law student.

You dismissed the fact that Martin was in better shape, focusing instead on height, weight and age to determine strength and advantage while ignoring the fact Martin was an athlete.

 

[hjmoosejaw]

It's not my fault a good chunk of the local populace hate pretty much everything about me. If my choices are between compromising my values and conforming to everyone else, staying home 24/7 or getting out and enjoying myself, potentially risking my safety because some of the people around me are full of hate, I'll take Door #3. For 15 years Option 1 was attempted and ruled to be a depressing endeavour, for 3 Option 2 was boring and equally miserable, and interestingly enough, that's actually when the mentioned incidents occurred.

Regardless it's not because I made stupid decisions or inserted myself into potentially dangerous situations, hell I was walking to my locker and to a friend's house just down the street, respectively.

Animus,Animus,Animus. I like you,I really do. And you stick to your guns. I gotta give ya that. You said you were Goth and live in Tenn. Do you see anything wrong with this picture? I have nothing against young people being Goth, as long as you ain't holding any ceremonies with the chickens out of my yard...........kiddin! Hell, I hitch-hiked up through Georgia back in 78 with long hair and an earring. I know about good ole boys. I was chased through the woods by a pick-up truck full of 'em. Then I got to S. Carolina ( I got away) and lived for about 4 months. I ain't got nothing against good ole boys either. But a natural fact is that a goth guy is probably gonna get hassled on occasion in Tenn. More power to ya for not conforming, but it's your choice. So you gotta go forward knowing that. One group hating another group ain't fair. But there's a lot that ain't fair. You don't have to conform, just maybe try to move through life with a little less resistance. It might make things a little easier. Good Luck!

 

[Animus]

Oh I understood your comment just fine. Perhaps it is you that does not understand what you said. So here, I'll break it down for you.


Reference to age: When you emphasized the age difference by utilizing the word/phrase "kid" and "grown man," you mad their age an important factor in why you believe Zimmerman had the advantage.

Hm, I guess I referenced age after all. My mistake.

Reference to weight: Again, by mentioning the weight differences you have made it an important factor in your determination that Z had the advantage.

Indeed, but I'm not saying other factors like training, fitness, etc aren't equally as important. If those factors were known to be I would've included them, but seeing as no articles I've read yet have made any mention of such things, I'm working with what I know.

Reference to size: Being short can be an advantage, but not usually. However, you seemed to insinuate that because Z is shorter he should be stronger. Wut?

I guess I wasn't very clear the first go around. Say they were both 6' tall, and say Zimmerman tipped the scales at 205. Assuming the extra weight is lean tissue and not fat, it would be safe to assume that Zimmerman would be more physically powerful than the 160 lb Trayvon. The same logic applies when Zimmerman is 4" shorter, but the difference is even more noticeable. His body is denser in comparison, and pound for pound he should be stronger. This would also be the case were they the same weight but still a different height, but of course this all assumes that Zimmerman isn't at least partially obese.

That's all you mentioned, insinuating those are the key factors which gave Z an advantage. However you completely ignored the fact that Zimmerman weighs more because he's fat, not because he's a body builder. Just because a person is fat, does not make them strong. They may be a bit stronger than the average scrawny man, but not by much.

I admit I haven't seen any full-body shots of him, so if he'
s fat then disregard that portion of my post. I wasn't aware.

Martin was an athlete, a football player, this is something else you have ignored. This is why he was in better shape, something you dismissed. Being that Martin was athletic and Zimmerman was overweight, Martin more likely than not had speed, strength and endurance over Zimmerman. Furthermore, as a football player, Martin would have better training and experience for tackling and pinning people than Zimmerman, an overweight law student.

You dismissed the fact that Martin was in better shape, focusing instead on height, weight and age to determine strength and advantage while ignoring the fact Martin was an athlete.

I haven't ignored that. I didn't know what sport he played, I assumed basketball by his build, and I admit not knowing much about football, but I doubt they'd have someone his size tackling anyone except in practice. He seems more likely to score a touchdown or kick a fieldgoal than sack someone. Also, athleticism in and of itself doesn't contribute to a person's ability to fight. Tennis players are athletes--well I guess they'd have a mean backhand.

Now take notice which parts of my argument you're attacking. Why aren't you taking issue with my inability to justify Zimmerman's actions? I figured if my thoughts were wrong, you guys would try to teach me how it really works. Mamabear did, and I can see her points. I'm still not sure I completely agree, but I will concede that not everyone can hold their own in a fist fight. That's obvious really, but I'm not yet convinced that those who can shouldn't attempt to defend themselves in that way before resorting to an armed defense. It's not bravado, I just think that a firearm is the last resort. That's what many people have been taught. Why not exhaust a few other options first? If nothing else, you'd have another defense if it went to court. You at least tried other measures before having no choice to use your weapon.

 

[Animus]

Animus,Animus,Animus. I like you,I really do. And you stick to your guns. I gotta give ya that. You said you were Goth and live in Tenn. Do you see anything wrong with this picture? I have nothing against young people being Goth, as long as you ain't holding any ceremonies with the chickens out of my yard...........kiddin! Hell, I hitch-hiked up through Georgia back in 78 with long hair and an earring. I know about good ole boys. I was chased through the woods by a pick-up truck full of 'em. Then I got to S. Carolina ( I got away) and lived for about 4 months. I ain't got nothing against good ole boys either. But a natural fact is that a goth guy is probably gonna get hassled on occasion in Tenn. More power to ya for not conforming, but it's your choice. So you gotta go forward knowing that. One group hating another group ain't fair. But there's a lot that ain't fair. You don't have to conform, just maybe try to move through life with a little less resistance. It might make things a little easier. Good Luck!

That's only the most obvious difference people tend to latch on to because it's visually noticeable. Throw in everything else that people learned over the years and decided to spread, and I'm pretty much left with only a tiny circle of people that don't have an issue with any aspect of my person. Most of the time I tolerate quite a lot, and besides the usual stares and muttered comments, I don't have any issues with anyone. But sometimes I don't have that option. Most of those times it never gets passed a verbal altercation, maybe a dozen times it got physical, and only twice was I afraid I'd end up in the morgue or in prison pending the outcome. I'd like to think there won't be a third, but I'm only in the first quarter of my life. Odds are it'll happen again eventually unless I capture a leprechaun or something. I think the luck of the Irish is a sick joke.

Oh, and there isn't much I can do about living in TN, at least for now. My best chance of getting out is to get my BS here. Even Nashville would be safer ironically.

 

[twoskinsonemanns]

The arguments on this thread are truly amusing.

Talk about holding your own in a fist fight and using wrestling skills to stop an attacker!
Just non-sense. If person A commits or attempts to commit aggravated assault or battery against person B, person B has NO obligation to try to match physical injury with physical injury in order to make the confrontation fair.. person B has EVERY right to apply deadly force to person A.

I do not ever intend to be in another fist fight for the rest of my life. If you don't want to face deadly force then don't assault.

 

[Animus]

The arguments on this thread are truly amusing.

Talk about holding your own in a fist fight and using wrestling skills to stop an attacker!
Just non-sense. If person A commits or attempts to commit aggravated assault or battery against person B, person B has NO obligation to try to match physical injury with physical injury in order to make the confrontation fair.. person B has EVERY right to apply deadly force to person A.

I do not ever intend to be in another fist fight for the rest of my life. If you don't want to face deadly force then don't assault.

Fair enough, but how do you convince a jury that was the best course of action? That's my main issue with it. Honestly I train* so rarely these days that anyone who decides to attack me in spite of my size, appearance and demeanor would probably be able to accomplish their goals without much trouble from me. I'm just unsure that I'd avoid a cell if I used a weapon to better my chances, though I guess alive in prison is better than dead in the ground or paralyzed for life or in a vegetative state etc. Idk....I doubt I'm the first to weigh these questions. I wonder if Zimmerman and Trayvon did. This is just a mess all around, if either person was a hardened criminal obviously out for blood, the conclusion would be easy.

If nothing else, it's a teachable moment for those new to self-defense situations.

*Simulated medieval combat on the weekends doesn't count, no matter how badly I'd love to fend off a switchblade-wielding attacker with a bastard sword ala exaggerated Crocodile Dundee.

 

[Animus]

I'm beginning to wonder if I have what it takes. It's been said that taking your life into your own hands isn't for everyone, and this discussion is making me question a few things. Granted this could all be premature, I haven't even bought my first handgun much less carried it. I guess I didn't take the psychological implications as seriously as I should've when debating the decision to go armed. Regardless I'm still a hoplophile, I'm sure I'll stay the course after much thought and consideration. But I'm not taking it lightly anymore.

My thanks to all involved for the life lessons. Please do keep them coming, I'm gonna try being more receptive in the future.

 

[MamabearCali]

Fair enough, but how do you convince a jury that was the best course of action? That's my main issue with it.

Like this (slightly altered to make it pertinent to my situation and prowess) "Ladies and gentlemen of the the jury. On the evening of Feb 12th Mrs. mamabearCali, 31 years old mother of four children (5 foot 4 inches, 165 lbs) went on her evening walk. While walking she saw Ms. Martin (5 foot 9 inches, 140 lbs), an individual she did not recognize, acting suspiciously. Mrs. MamabearCali called the police and observed Ms. Martin from afar. During her conversation with the 9-1-1 operator Mrs. mamabearCali lost sight of Ms. Martin. While returning to a pre-arranged meeting place with the police Mrs. MamabearCali was suddenly confronted by Ms. Martin (even Dee Dee says that Martin confronted Zimmerman) and was subsequently punched in the nose and knocked to the ground. Ms. Martin continued to beat Mrs. mamabearCali's head on the sidewalk causing serious injuries. Fearing for her life and unable to get anyone to help her end Ms. Martin's assault Mrs. mamabearCali drew her 9mm pistol and fired one shot to end the lethal assault. It was later found out that Ms. Martin (17) had been suspended from her local school for drug paraphernalia and had marijuana in her system at the time of the encounter. These are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed."

That is classic self-defense, not even stand your ground, as you are unable to retreat once once the earth is beneath your back.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Also, athleticism in and of itself doesn't contribute to a person's ability to fight.

True. And neither does a size/age/weight advantage. It's mostly the frame of mind and how badly you want to win.

I just think that a firearm is the last resort.

It is a last resort; but when you are in a position to fear for your life, all other resorts have been exhausted. The longer you take to end the fight, the more risk you expose yourself to.

I'm beginning to wonder if I have what it takes. It's been said that taking your life into your own hands isn't for everyone, and this discussion is making me question a few things. Granted this could all be premature, I haven't even bought my first handgun much less carried it. I guess I didn't take the psychological implications as seriously as I should've when debating the decision to go armed. Regardless I'm still a hoplophile, I'm sure I'll stay the course after much thought and consideration. But I'm not taking it lightly anymore.

My thanks to all involved for the life lessons. Please do keep them coming, I'm gonna try being more receptive in the future.

I'm glad you're willing to be more receptive; there's lots of people here with wisdom and experience to share. It's also good you're realizing now (rather then later) that strapping a fire arm to your side is more then just wearing it. Every morning that I arm up, I consciously face the reality that I may have to use it against another person. I pray that I never do, but if I have to; I'm prepared to deal with the fact I could end someone's life.
Prepare yourself mentally, and you'll have the advantage.

 

[OC for ME]

I'm beginning to wonder if I have what it takes. It's been said that taking your life into your own hands isn't for everyone, and this discussion is making me question a few things. Granted this could all be premature, I haven't even bought my first handgun much less carried it. I guess I didn't take the psychological implications as seriously as I should've when debating the decision to go armed. Regardless I'm still a hoplophile, I'm sure I'll stay the course after much thought and consideration. But I'm not taking it lightly anymore.

My thanks to all involved for the life lessons. Please do keep them coming, I'm gonna try being more receptive in the future.

Do you drive a motor vehicle?

 

[hjmoosejaw]

I'm beginning to wonder if I have what it takes. It's been said that taking your life into your own hands isn't for everyone, and this discussion is making me question a few things. Granted this could all be premature, I haven't even bought my first handgun much less carried it. I guess I didn't take the psychological implications as seriously as I should've when debating the decision to go armed. Regardless I'm still a hoplophile, I'm sure I'll stay the course after much thought and consideration. But I'm not taking it lightly anymore.

My thanks to all involved for the life lessons. Please do keep them coming, I'm gonna try being more receptive in the future.

Some sound wisdom Animus! Sometimes it's not conforming as much as just growing or moving on to the next stage. I mentioned hitch-hiking into S. Carolina with long hair and an earring. After there awhile, I let some neighbor woman cut my hair. After hanging out with "girls" the past couple of years, I started noticing "women" paying attention to me. I started really thinking, man this shorter hair is working for me. Long story short, I made some changes. Got some more schooling, after years of B.S. jobs, got a family and a great job. Bought a house, bought a brand new boat. Enjoying life with the family. Wife gets diagnosed with cancer, housing thing happens. ( I didn't buy one I couldn't afford. But with an adjustable mortgage, they just kept raising and raising my payments. Anyway, crawling out of that, on my own, not taking a penny from tax payers) Wife diagnosed 12 years ago. Now my 15 year old daughter has some serious health issues. It's hell watching her wake up in pain a couple times through the night. Anyway, Animus, There is always gonna be things that want to kick your ass in life. All you can do is, the best you can. I can tell, you're a smart person. You'll do alright. Just accept what you have to, enjoy life to the fullest for as long as you can. Sometimes, you just have to ride things out and wait for the next stage. Have a good one!