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2nd Amendment lawsuit brought in Hawaii...

Window_Seat

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Honolulu Police Chief and State of Hawaii sued for Second Amendment violations

Baker v. Kealoha

NEWS RELEASE

For Immediate Release: 8/23/2011

Honolulu, HI – The Hawaii Defense Foundation’s founding director and president, Christopher Baker, has filed a lawsuit against Honolulu Chief of Police Louis Kealoha, the Honolulu Police Department, the City and County of Honolulu, the State of Hawaii, and Governor Neil Abercrombie in connection with civil rights violations of the Second and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution.

Honolulu Police Chief and State of Hawaii sued for Second Amendment violations

Here is the case docket and the complaint.

From my understanding, it's going to be very tough for the defendant(s) to argue their case of denial because of the fact alone that the State Constitution's RKBA mirrors that of the Second Amendment of the BoR. They can't say that it's different, especially knowing that the Second is incorporated against all the states & local governments.

Erik.
 

Window_Seat

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I hope some kind soul will post the response(s) to this lawsuit, when they become available.
Amen,
And I'd love to be able to OPEN CARRY in Hawaii whenever I visit when this lawsuit reaches it's conclusion and Hawaii is actually proven to be PART OF THE UNION and the CONSTITUTION is VALID there!

The recap docket, as well as the archive docket are available, but updates can happen if someone accesses the PACER Docket.

Another interesting part of this is that in addition to the State having to defend their idea of why there should be a de facto ban on all forms of carry outside the home, they are going to have to do so knowing about the holding in Puerto Rico making the 2nd valid outside the home.

Erik.
 
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user

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That IS interesting. Hawaii is one of the states I always list as having too corrupt a legal system to be considered a civilized country. I'll be keeping an eye on this, as I think it's a significant indicator. The others on the list, by the way, are California, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, and the area of Pennsylvania around Philadelphia. I sort of lump these together with places like Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, Italy, and Nigeria. I'd sooner go to Saudi Arabia than California, at least the legal system there is stable, consistent and predictable.

I routinely advise clients not to do business with people in uncivilized areas, because if things don't go as they should, the client will be stuck holding the bag; if they can't rely on the legal systems in the place where the other party is located, then a contract means nothing.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Marine you obviously have very few local friends.

They are a great people with warm hearts quick to laugh.

Many are mislead, yes the federal government and the state has forced a sense of dependency on many.

Try going to Kokohead gun range some time. Warning if you don't get there early you wont get a spot and it's a large range. Asians have the same natural rights and desire to exercise those rights we do.

I love Hawaii I miss living there, I also like the fact that for many things they aren't a "law and order" state, that isn't how our country was founded. (hint liberty doesn't need "proactive" police) I liked the fact that police would rather give you a warning than process you and exercise their "authority" over you.

Yes the locals were angry over annexation, it was the asian and caucasian population that wanted to become part of U.S. I don't blame them, I am 1/4 native and understand the wholesale destruction of culture U.S. has been part of in the past, shame on our country for those misdeeds.
 

marinepilot81

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Marine you obviously have very few local friends.

They are a great people with warm hearts quick to laugh.

Many are mislead, yes the federal government and the state has forced a sense of dependency on many.

Try going to Kokohead gun range some time. Warning if you don't get there early you wont get a spot and it's a large range. Asians have the same natural rights and desire to exercise those rights we do.

I love Hawaii I miss living there, I also like the fact that for many things they aren't a "law and order" state, that isn't how our country was founded. (hint liberty doesn't need "proactive" police) I liked the fact that police would rather give you a warning than process you and exercise their "authority" over you.

Yes the locals were angry over annexation, it was the asian and caucasian population that wanted to become part of U.S. I don't blame them, I am 1/4 native and understand the wholesale destruction of culture U.S. has been part of in the past, shame on our country for those misdeeds.

.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Yes, they are "jolly" people, but they're just as quick to grab my wallet and ask that I pay for their illegitimate children and housing for the many living in tents on the western shore. I never said they weren't delightful people; I said that they are collectivist, dependent separatists by nature. You cannot expect me to look passed all their distinguishing cultural traits because they include a decorative umbrella in my Mai Tai.

I will never go to Koko Head range because I absolutely REFUSE to register my gun with the state police and then prostrate myself before men begging - registration in hand - for the "privilege" of shooting on their public range. Not going to happen.

Police officers exist to enforce the laws. Period. You expect me to show gratitude when a police officer merely threatens me with a fine or tax to which I don't consent? I do not thank my guard dog for not biting my hand when I feed it, either. We are a nation of laws, not favors or "Whoa, brah. He good loca' boy" sentiment. I reserve my approval for police officers that know the law, enforce it, and don't presume benevolence for giving me a warning when I don't consent to the fine in the first place.

Destruction of the island culture, sir?! If it weren't for Capt Cook and the influence of the US Armed Forces, Hawaiians would still be running around in loin cloth garments conducting human sacrifices to Pele. Your statement qualifies my previous point; Hawaiians do not share American culture, do not consider themselves American, and desire no part of a free, armed republic. Laziness and slothfulness are not the product of a strong, individualistic character or the pursuit of liberty.

I stand by my remarks. Save federal mandate, this case will lose or enter the mire. Regrettable, but true.

Well you can wallow in your ignorance but you are absolutely wrong. So I am assuming you have no guns, in Hawaii now? Because when I go to Kokohead they never asked for registration papers.

Then leave Hawaii and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Oh yea by the way, The Hawaiian Royal Palace had running water and toilets before the white house. Spouting crap when obviously only associate with other people who live up to your "white bread" world. I disagree with welfare and so do many locals. But of course governments want people dependent. But it isn't just "Hawaiians" that are willing to take your money, there are many folks in every state that do that.

Yep lots of white trash in my county stealing from me.
 
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cloudcroft

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Okay, good "talking points" on both sides above -- and I also get a bit peeved about the state of HI sometimes acting like a foreign country instead of a STATE of the so-called Union. And I'd like to see ALL American citizens have the SAME exercise of their 2nd Amendment RIGHTS no matter what state they live in.

But with permission, to keep on topic...

I agree that things don't look good for this lawsuit, but not sure exactly why. Sure, their repressive/anti-gun reality has been so, I guess, since Statehood (1959) so it'll be tough going changing that. I thought it MIGHT be because of the high Asian population (for a couple of reasons) but not sure, nor has anyone in HI ever really answered my question if race had anything to do with HI's repressive anti-gun situation thus far -- besides, of course, most HI politicians (and apparently the VOTERS who elected them) who are Liberal Democrats. Or, maybe it could be the white "mainland transplants" (haoles) if the majority of them also are Democrats -- you know, like the liberal Californians who move to other states and are ruining those states as well -- but I don't know how many mainland transplants are liberals and how many are conservatives. With no one race in diverse HI having any majority, it may not matter. Again, however, who knows -- except that MOST people must be usually voting Democrat every election (again since Statehood) otherwise HI would'nt be such a Democrat state, would it.

But the previous Governor of HI -- Linda Lingle -- was a Republican, yet still nothing happened on the gun-permit front. And for sure the present Governor -- Democrat Neil Abercrombie -- won't do anything but keep things as they always have been in HI: Repressive...he won't want "all those guns on the street" (even if legal this time), will he.

Still, NO lawsuit SURELY won't get anywhere, will it, so if for no other reason, it needs to be done.

It's a start, and an effort LONG overdue!

Interesting though, it seemed the Honolulu Star-Advertiser (newspaper) didn't post the story very quickly -- I saw the news HERE first. it was almost like an afterthought, and just a simple mention, really. I would think they would have been quicker printing such news than they were...not sure their lateness means anything or not, even though it's a liberal paper (as most are). I sometimes post comments to their stores, usually re: their stories on the robbery, beating, knifing or shooting of the day, and reading other people's comments suggests there ARE a fair amount of people in that state who are NOT happy with the situation -- they want to be tough on crime and aren't happy about not being allowed to carry. But who knows what the actual numbers are? And my suggestion to get a comprehensive "market study" done -- or at least a petition going to guage the average citizen's position on "gun control" as it has been -- and the denial of any legal way to carry as well -- hasn't gotten any traction so far I guess.

So yeah, it'll be tough going to bring about change.

I wonder how many people in HI have been carrying "illegally" anyway all these years, since the state gives them no LEGAL way to carry past the front door of their homes. I can't say I blame them. And if the lawsuit fails, and HI is given some "legal mandate" to CONTINUE ignroing the 2nd Amendment by denying its citizens the right to SOME form of carry (CC or OC), then I suspect MORE people will decide to become "criminals" and carry anyway. Sure, they'll be "outed" the first time they USE the gun, but hopefully, they'll be alive because of it.

What a sad state (no pun intended) of affairs where citizens have no legal way to protect themselves yet will become criminals if they do. But maybe this lawsuit is the first chipping-away of that stone wall that has existed since Statehood.

Hope so.
 

sudden valley gunner

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I wonder how many people in HI have been carrying "illegally" anyway all these years, since the state gives them no LEGAL way to carry past the front door of their homes. I can't say I blame them. And if the lawsuit fails, and HI is given some "legal mandate" to CONTINUE ignroing the 2nd Amendment by denying its citizens the right to SOME form of carry (CC or OC), then I suspect MORE people will decide to become "criminals" and carry anyway. Sure, they'll be "outed" the first time they USE the gun, but hopefully, they'll be alive because of it.

What a sad state (no pun intended) of affairs where citizens have no legal way to protect themselves yet will become criminals if they do. But maybe this lawsuit is the first chipping-away of that stone wall that has existed since Statehood.

Hope so.

I know lots of folks who carry, yes they are breaking the law, but an unconstitutional law is null and void so I don't blame them. And these folks are mostly Asian and Polynesian they believe their right to protect themselves and their family trumps state law.

I don't believe race has anything to do with it, that kind of thinking is polylogism and is the type of thinking Germany used to rationalize their 'conquering' the world and the ridiculous idea of "Aryan" supremacy.
 
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cloudcroft

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What I meant by "race" was that IF (I don't know) most of the Asians there as a group mentally relate (i.e., their "cultural heritage") to their respective homelands (such as the Phillipines, Japan, China, etc.) -- where those countries have NO such 2nd Amendment/RKBA rights/heritage (and NEVER had) -- RATHER than relate to traditional American rights/heritage, then it's all the more important for Aisians in HI -- IF they don't already -- to think of themselves as Americans rather than Asians from some "homeland" that never had or have any such rights, and DEMAND the same rights fellow Americans have in other states of the Union on the mainland.

Maybe it's similar to most Hispanics here in the US, who identify more with Mexico (the prevalent "La Raza" attitude) -- and Mexico is also without any 2nd Amendment/RKBA heritage/tradition -- rather than giving that up and identifying with America (please don't tell me they don't: I lived in El Paso, Texas for 44 years and it was more like Mexico in SO many ways than America I won't "debate" that point). Or maybe like the East Germans (and those in the USSR before the Berlin Wall and Iron Curtain came down) had NO idea what they were missing in the West, the freedoms and higher standard of living the West had compared to the lack of almost everything and LOW standard (poverty mostly) in the USSR and Eastern Bloc countires. Once those people got to watch Western TV and saw what they were missing all the years since WWII, they were pretty pissed-off about being deprived by The State all that time! Maybe Hawaiians are too used to HI being repressive gun-wise and have no idea what real freedom -- let alone gun freedom -- really is. Again, I don't know, just guessing.

So whether race does or does not play a role in HI being so repressive, no one knows, as there is no data on it, nor is anyone in HI saying so. Just a taboo (kapu) topic (I guess) and no one will publicly address it. So all we have to go on now is opinions...which everyone has.

Whatever, I don't want to argue with anyone here about it, I was just bringing it up for the readers of this particular thread as a POSSIBLE reason for the resistance to changing the status-quo in HI re: gun rights, more specifically, the right of self defense -- via whatever weapon (tool) you want to use to exercise that right.

I do hope, however, that whatever the logjam is that has prevented the 2nd Amendment/RKBA in HI these past 52 years is blown away (figuratively speaking of course) sooner rather than later -- and hopefully BEFORE I get there within the next 2 years. ;-)

I've said enough so I'm done here now, but DO hope to hear of any progress on this lawsuit.


Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to finish my Kona espresso (I get my Kona beans from SmithFarms.com on The Big Island, BTW -- a nice Mom & Pop small business I am pleased to help support) while I get back to looking at those Kaahumanu St./Wailuna condos up in the hills of Aiea. :)

Aloha...
 
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Statkowski

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Both sides in this brouhaha are correct. One side says the civil rights won't get applied because the locals are animals who don't know how to behave anyway. The other side says we are a nation of laws and we have certain inalienable rights, etc., etc., etc.

A young man I know was stationed in Hawaii with the 25th Infantry Division. On his way back from the range his lone vehicle was cut off and forced to stop by some "bruddas" who thought it would be fun to harass the haoles. He locked and loaded on them (much to his lieutenant's shock) and the "bruddas" suddenly remembered they were late for an appointment elsewhere.

What does this mean? Well, whether the locals know how to behave or not (which can apply to any major city in the country), we are a nation of laws and the laws will be applied - meaning, just because some ******** can't behave doesn't mean everyone has to be punished because of it.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Both sides in this brouhaha are correct. One side says the civil rights won't get applied because the locals are animals who don't know how to behave anyway. The other side says we are a nation of laws and we have certain inalienable rights, etc., etc., etc.

A young man I know was stationed in Hawaii with the 25th Infantry Division. On his way back from the range his lone vehicle was cut off and forced to stop by some "bruddas" who thought it would be fun to harass the haoles. He locked and loaded on them (much to his lieutenant's shock) and the "bruddas" suddenly remembered they were late for an appointment elsewhere.

What does this mean? Well, whether the locals know how to behave or not (which can apply to any major city in the country), we are a nation of laws and the laws will be applied - meaning, just because some ******** can't behave doesn't mean everyone has to be punished because of it.

If people want to insist on bringing ethnic background into it you will find most the incidents that do happen are from those who have some blood from immigrants of Portugal. Yep Europeans.

I lived there off and on from very young. Lived there for several years as I got older, I am going to take your story with a grain of salt, and say there is more to it than they were just getting messed with. Yes like any other place, it has good folks and some bad folks. Most haoles I find that get messed with are ones who refuse to show some respect and feel they are "better" than locals. Funny I have always got along with the locals and would surf and hang in areas that many consider no haole land. But maybe because of my 1st nations background, I showed more respect and understanding.

The one thing I can agree with is that the government with its handouts, and anti liberty laws have made the problem way worse, just like places on the Mainland that are the same way. Ween people off government and we will have a better society in Hawaii and else where.
 

JoshuaJJackson

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If people want to insist on bringing ethnic background into it you will find most the incidents that do happen are from those who have some blood from immigrants of Portugal. Yep Europeans.

I lived there off and on from very young. Lived there for several years as I got older, I am going to take your story with a grain of salt, and say there is more to it than they were just getting messed with. Yes like any other place, it has good folks and some bad folks. Most haoles I find that get messed with are ones who refuse to show some respect and feel they are "better" than locals. Funny I have always got along with the locals and would surf and hang in areas that many consider no haole land. But maybe because of my 1st nations background, I showed more respect and understanding.

The one thing I can agree with is that the government with its handouts, and anti liberty laws have made the problem way worse, just like places on the Mainland that are the same way. Ween people off government and we will have a better society in Hawaii and else where.

Its has nothing to do with haoles feeling that that are better than the locals, its the locals feeling its "their" island and being better than all the haloes. I lived there for 5 years which ended about 6 months ago. Had a lot of local friends as my wife lived there, graduated etc...

But without fail not all, but alot of people would be massively rude or completely ignore you. But the second would find out wife graduated from Kahuku they all of a sudden were like long lost brother and sister or some ****.

The whole society there is so hypocrtical all races/cultures alike. Look at all the Slow down this ain't the mainland bumper stickers, but yet how many times was I shoulder passed by a local because I was only going 10mph over on the H3. I've been ran off the road by a suburban in my car before trying to pull me out of my car.

Everyone there is to blame. It just figures a lawsuit like this would come up after I leave.. I hope things get better there, it is an awesome place.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Its has nothing to do with haoles feeling that that are better than the locals, its the locals feeling its "their" island and being better than all the haloes. I lived there for 5 years which ended about 6 months ago. Had a lot of local friends as my wife lived there, graduated etc...

But without fail not all, but alot of people would be massively rude or completely ignore you. But the second would find out wife graduated from Kahuku they all of a sudden were like long lost brother and sister or some ****.

The whole society there is so hypocrtical all races/cultures alike. Look at all the Slow down this ain't the mainland bumper stickers, but yet how many times was I shoulder passed by a local because I was only going 10mph over on the H3. I've been ran off the road by a suburban in my car before trying to pull me out of my car.

Everyone there is to blame. It just figures a lawsuit like this would come up after I leave.. I hope things get better there, it is an awesome place.

Interesting, I must have missed all that. And I am haole. Were some people dicks? Yes, the overwhelming majority weren't, I got along with most locals of all ethnic backgrounds. I did observe many haoles who had problems though bring those problems upon themselves because of their attitude or how they treated others. I miss the aina and the people can't wait to get back there, just wish they wouldn't effectively disarm me, that is the government and not the people doing that.
 
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cloudcroft

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Well, if "goverment is by the consent of the people," and the government has (effectively) disarmed the people, then the people must have been and still be "consenting" -- otherwise the repressive anti-gun atmosphere there in HI would have changed decades ago. So by logical extension, the people HAVE done the disarming. Apparently, the people of Hawaii -- at least the majority of them who vote -- have not wanted change so far...maybe the lawsuit will at least bring attention to the issue. So I hope NOW it the time for change (meaning REAL change, not that Obama mumbo-jumbo).

As for "unaloha spirit" behavior over there towards haoles, yes, I've heard that in some eateries -- if you aren't a local -- "service" takes longer to get to your table than it does to other people's (locals') tables. And there are plenty of stories about haloe kids having it rough in some public schools. But I'm just going to wait and see what my experience is when I'm there. And I would expect to receive any Kama'aina discounts when I prove that *I* also am a local by showing my HI driver's license as proof. ;-)

Speaking only for myself, however, I CAN say this: I'm not going to give locals any arrogant, superior, condecending or unfriendly attitude, but at the same time I'm sure not going to act meek, submissive or deferential. As an American citizen, EVERY state is my state -- if I want to move/live there -- and I don't owe "locals" (indigeneous or other haoles who have been there longer) any apologies for my presence nor ask their permission. We're all equals, IMO. All else being equal, no one is better than anyone else. And Hawaii is just another state, no better than (or superior to) any other state.

In short, I won't give anyone any crap but I sure won't take any.

I think that's fair...


So, is Chris Baker doing any updating here on the case's progress? Maybe give us some idea when it's scheduled on the court's docket?
 
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sudden valley gunner

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My guess it will be sometime, the legal system isn't the quickest thing around. Gives us more time to pontificate on why people allow their rights to be infringed upon.:lol:
 
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