Civil Disobediance

[Bill45]

After I-594 goes into effect there should be a mass gathering in Olympia. We should all gather in a large circle and publicly pass our guns around the group untill we each have our own back.

Lets see them arrest what would hopefully be 100 to 200+ people. In affect an exercise in public disobediance.

 

[1245A Defender]

Well,,,

After I-594 goes into effect there should be a mass gathering in Olympia. We should all gather in a large circle and publicly pass our guns around the group untill we each have our own back.

Lets see them arrest what would hopefully be 100 to 200+ people. In affect an exercise in public disobediance.

Well guess what???

We are,,,,, December 13th, 11AM https://www.facebook.com/events/788109621237033/

 

[Jeff. State]

How about adding, carrying concealed with no permit, bringing along your homemade silencer/full auto converted/etc. etc. etc.

I594 is at the hind end of infringements all of us have already endured.

This is about civil disobedience not breaking UNCONSTITUTIONAL "Laws", right?

 

[bani]

After I-594 goes into effect there should be a mass gathering in Olympia. We should all gather in a large circle and publicly pass our guns around the group untill we each have our own back.

Lets see them arrest what would hopefully be 100 to 200+ people. In affect an exercise in public disobediance.

unless you have a WA AG opinion that handing a gun to someone constitutes a transfer under 594, this is a bad idea.

LEO is going to do NOTHING. they just aren't going to bother. then MDA/WAGR will claim victory with "see! told you handing a gun to someone is not a transfer! haw haw haw!" and you will all look foolish. in front of the media.

FIRST get a WA AG opinion that handing a gun to someone IS a transfer under 594. THEN do your civil disobedience.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/default.aspx

if you don't have a WA AG opinion, this will backfire in your faces, it will be negative PR for gun owners and huge positive PR for bloomberg.

also, december is the worst time to do this. NOBODY will be in olympia. they aren't holding any sessions then. you want visibility? do it in january when the house is in session. december is completely wrong timing.

 

[MSG Laigaie]

completely wrong timing.

This is something we have been consistent with lately.

 

[bani]

This is something we have been consistent with lately.

the organizer is also quite the character. he shares the same zeal and aggressiveness that you see in those adorable tax protesters.

i don't think this rally is going to end well for them. they're just going to be providing plenty of fuel for the "gun owners are iresponsible unhinged looneys" fire.

 

[sirtirithon]

the organizer is also quite the character. he shares the same zeal and aggressiveness that you see in those adorable tax protesters.

i don't think this rally is going to end well for them. they're just going to be providing plenty of fuel for the "gun owners are iresponsible unhinged looneys" fire.

What we are doing is showing them that the "law" is null and void. It violates our constitution. It is our duty to not comply. If we all stand together it cannot be enforced. The line has been drawn.

 

[bani]

What we are doing is showing them that the "law" is null and void. It violates our constitution. It is our duty to not comply. If we all stand together it cannot be enforced. The line has been drawn.

what you are doing is purely reactionary, not well thought out and not well planned. a well thought out and planned rally wouldn't be taking place in december, and wouldn't be lacking WA AG opinions to back up your civil disobedience.

i repeat, your "civil disobedience" is going to be ignored by LEO, and MDA/WAGR will claim victory at your expense.

you won't accomplish anything other than damaging your own cause. it is your freedom to do so, just as it is your freedom to be foolish.

also, for the OP - disobedience doesn't have an "a" in it. we don't to reinforce the stereotype that gun owners are illiterate

 

[Jeff. State]

bani: Are you Alan Gottliebs personal assistant?

 

[O_Kellogg]

"....WA AG opinion..."
..."...WA AG opinion..."

Please explain the full legal effect of this "opinion" you esteem.

Feel free to cite any law or ordinance that requires a judge or jury to abide by such esteemed opinion.

I'll wait...

OK

 

[bani]

"....WA AG opinion..."
..."...WA AG opinion..."

Please explain the full legal effect of this "opinion" you esteem.

Feel free to cite any law or ordinance that requires a judge or jury to abide by such esteemed opinion.

I'll wait...

OK

nothing.

here is the point: a WA AG opinion will help keep you from being embarassed in front of the media. if the WA AG rules it IS a transfer, then MDA/WAGR will look foolish arguing against it, and you will have a much more favorable position with your civil disobedience in front of the media. if LEO decline to arrest anyone with an AG ruling that it IS a transfer, then your point to the media will be made MUCH stronger. proving it is a ridiculous law and stupid to enforce. it will be a definite win.

remember, MDA/WAGR have been arguing all along that it is not a transfer. and when LEO decline to do anything, they will appear vindicated and you'll look like fools. why hand a PR victory to them?

get a WA AG opinion to back you up.

and as i stated before, december is the WORST time to hold your rally.

 

[O_Kellogg]

Please explain...

Feel free to cite...

nothing.

Oh. Well, thanks for playing.

Would you like to play again?
Please describe a universe in which "The Media" would present any political issue or event without an extreme bias.
For extra credit you might suggest my reasons for caring what the general public thinks, or how catering to the TeeVee masses promotes freedom.


OK

 

[davidmcbeth]

Isn't the term "transfer" short for "transfer of ownership"?

Are they re-inventing definitions?

 

[bani]

Oh. Well, thanks for playing.

Would you like to play again?
Please describe a universe in which "The Media" would present any political issue or event without an extreme bias.
For extra credit you might suggest my reasons for caring what the general public thinks, or how catering to the TeeVee masses promotes freedom.


OK

so then what is the point of this rally? who is your message targeting? how will it improve the situation for gun owners?

 

[bani]

What we are doing is showing them that the "law" is null and void. It violates our constitution. It is our duty to not comply. If we all stand together it cannot be enforced. The line has been drawn.

you will not be showing anyone that "the law" is "null and void". you will just be proving that what MDA/WAGR have been claiming all along is correct, that handing a gun to someone is not a transfer. they will get to claim a victory at your expense.

 

[Difdi]

Isn't the term "transfer" short for "transfer of ownership"?

Are they re-inventing definitions?

In common usage and many actual statutes, you're right, it's transfer of ownership. But in case law and in 594, it's transfer of possession. It doesn't matter what the common sense definition is or what an older law defined a transfer as, what matters is what current case law and new statutes define it as -- and under 594 a transfer is of possession as well, not just ownership.

 

[The Truth]

In common usage and many actual statutes, you're right, it's transfer of ownership. But in case law and in 594, it's transfer of possession. It doesn't matter what the common sense definition is or what an older law defined a transfer as, what matters is what current case law and new statutes define it as -- and under 594 a transfer is of possession as well, not just ownership.

So if you let someone "borrow" something without explicitly defining the terms of the "transfer," they now legally own the item and the burden of proof is on you to provide proof that the "transfer" wasn't one or the other?

 

[Primus]

Isn't the term "transfer" short for "transfer of ownership"?

Are they re-inventing definitions?

Now we are getting to the meat of it. Of like to see the case law or statute everyone is saying changes the definition.

So if you let someone "borrow" something without explicitly defining the terms of the "transfer," they now legally own the item and the burden of proof is on you to provide proof that the "transfer" wasn't one or the other?

 

[bani]

the interpretations are all too vague and will likely have to be settled in the courts.

 

[Alpine]

unless you have a WA AG opinion that handing a gun to someone constitutes a transfer under 594, this is a bad idea.

LEO is going to do NOTHING. they just aren't going to bother. then MDA/WAGR will claim victory with "see! told you handing a gun to someone is not a transfer! haw haw haw!" and you will all look foolish. in front of the media.

FIRST get a WA AG opinion that handing a gun to someone IS a transfer under 594. THEN do your civil disobedience.

http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/default.aspx

if you don't have a WA AG opinion, this will backfire in your faces, it will be negative PR for gun owners and huge positive PR for bloomberg.

also, december is the worst time to do this. NOBODY will be in olympia. they aren't holding any sessions then. you want visibility? do it in january when the house is in session. december is completely wrong timing.

I agree with this 100%

Think about it. LEOs are not going to try and go after dozens or hundreds of people at once, even if they are technically breaking a law. Instead you'll have MDA/WAGR claiming they were right and that handing someone a gun isn't a "transfer" and they'll say that the fact that WA State Troopers didn't bring 300 paddy wagons to cart you all away is the proof, even if they're lying.

If and when police DO come for gun owners to arrest for transfer violations it will be one at a time and quietly without fanfare.

This rally is a huge mistake and will only be used against us.

I know many of you are angry. I am angry as well. I am angry at myself for not doing more despite having made calls, emails, gone door-knocking, handing out fliers, putting up signs and donating all I could. I am angry because I feel that the NRA largely abandoned us. But that doesn't change where we are right now.

Right now we have to move forward. To everyone who is upset about this, donate to the SAF and lets wait for the lawsuit. Don't do anything dumb to get an arrest and possible felony on your record, and don't do anything to further marginalize gun owners in the public's eye. This kind of response is exactly what WAGR wants you to do. if you do this, you will play right into their hands!