• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

CNN Analyst Suggests Women Can’t Carry Guns Because They Wear Skirts, Dresses

357SigFan

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
147
Location
STL MO, USA
Yes, absolutely. The BG is there to carryout his/her mission. Now, if his/her mission is to attack open carriers, then they will be the target. But, like stated above what does an open carrier look like? An open carrier is easy to spot. It is that tall short fat skinny guy, you know, the bald guy with a full head of hair, the one with two eyes, a mouth and nose. That's the guy.
No, sorry, you absolutely cannot. Yes, you are correct, the BG is there to carry out a 'mission'. He/she is most likely not there SPECIFICALLY to kill LEOs, but they would stand in their way. And if he/she is a determined individual to carry out his mission like the Kirkwood shooter, and has the slightest hint of observation skills, he/she will more than likely observer the holstered firearm and kill that individual first. After all, that armed person, LEO or otherwise, poses a threat to the individuals mission. Now, does the uniform make the LEO a walking target, more so than the civilian OCing a firearm? Sure, but that in no way makes it absolutely certain that an open carrier will go unnoticed and thus not a bigger target than someone CCing (or not carrying at all).

That's not to say it isn't possible (or likely, even) that the 'softcore' 'amateurs', the kind that really, actually don't want a confrontation with anyone else - they just want to smash/scare, grab and run - will notice the LEO (and 'abort mission') but miss the OCer in another situation and continue on, or they might see the OCer and 'abort mission' there as well - there really is no way to tell for sure. Again, these are the 'softcore' criminals, not the ones determined to complete their mission and kill others.

So stop fooling yourself into thinking that OCing in no way raises your target profile. It certainly does not raise it to the level of a LEOs uniform, but it will bring it up a notch or two because that OCd firearm, if/when noticed, shows the perp that you are capable of stopping them from preventing their 'mission'.

The lack of any data doesn't prove anything. Throughout a decent portion of the country, especially where the higher crime rates are (Think NYC and Chicago, for example), Open Carry is heavily restricted or banned, so the only individuals that would be OCing are LEOs - If your not a Uniform or a Detective/LT/etc with a badge on your belt, you'll likely be getting a ride to the station in cuffs. Add to that the 'social stigma' spewed by the lamestream media and today's snowflakes, plus the risk of physical attack by bat***t crazy liberals, the risk of being stopped/detained (unlawfully) because some loon mad a MWAG call (not everyone has nothing to do an all day to do it and really doesn't care if they need to educate some loon), etc, outside of respectable rural areas, OC is just not that common. So there will be virtually no data on the subject to really prove anything.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,898
Location
North Carolina
OCers have a much lower victim rate than the rest of the population in general, that says something all by itself. And if that does not work it is NONE of your business how others carry legally, they take responsibility for their carry, NOT you.

I am about sick, and tired of this OC your gonna die bull scat. For all that want to espouse it GO POUND SAND!
 

HP995

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
730
Location
MO, USA
it is NONE of your business how others carry legally
+1 to OC is your absolute right. To speculate how a situation might turn out is one thing, but it's a personal choice how to carry in that situation. Over time, students could get hints of who CC's too.

One of the best ways to attract the attention of bad guys is be 100% predictable, always in the same place at the same time doing the same thing and responding the same way.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
4,649
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
No, sorry, you absolutely cannot. Yes, you are correct, the BG is there to carry out a 'mission'. He/she is most likely not there SPECIFICALLY to kill LEOs, but they would stand in their way. And if he/she is a determined individual to carry out his mission like the Kirkwood shooter, and has the slightest hint of observation skills, he/she will more than likely observer the holstered firearm and kill that individual first. After all, that armed person, LEO or otherwise, poses a threat to the individuals mission. Now, does the uniform make the LEO a walking target, more so than the civilian OCing a firearm? Sure, but that in no way makes it absolutely certain that an open carrier will go unnoticed and thus not a bigger target than someone CCing (or not carrying at all).

That's not to say it isn't possible (or likely, even) that the 'softcore' 'amateurs', the kind that really, actually don't want a confrontation with anyone else - they just want to smash/scare, grab and run - will notice the LEO (and 'abort mission') but miss the OCer in another situation and continue on, or they might see the OCer and 'abort mission' there as well - there really is no way to tell for sure. Again, these are the 'softcore' criminals, not the ones determined to complete their mission and kill others.

So stop fooling yourself into thinking that OCing in no way raises your target profile. It certainly does not raise it to the level of a LEOs uniform, but it will bring it up a notch or two because that OCd firearm, if/when noticed, shows the perp that you are capable of stopping them from preventing their 'mission'.

The lack of any data doesn't prove anything. Throughout a decent portion of the country, especially where the higher crime rates are (Think NYC and Chicago, for example), Open Carry is heavily restricted or banned, so the only individuals that would be OCing are LEOs - If your not a Uniform or a Detective/LT/etc with a badge on your belt, you'll likely be getting a ride to the station in cuffs. Add to that the 'social stigma' spewed by the lamestream media and today's snowflakes, plus the risk of physical attack by bat***t crazy liberals, the risk of being stopped/detained (unlawfully) because some loon mad a MWAG call (not everyone has nothing to do an all day to do it and really doesn't care if they need to educate some loon), etc, outside of respectable rural areas, OC is just not that common. So there will be virtually no data on the subject to really prove anything.
"if/when noticed" The odds of that, by your own admission, is slim to none.

I'm not going to burn-up anymore brain cells over slim to none.
 

357SigFan

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
147
Location
STL MO, USA
"if/when noticed" The odds of that, by your own admission, is slim to none.

I'm not going to burn-up anymore brain cells over slim to none.
Slim, yes, none, no way (Let's be clear - the odds of being in a SD situation are pretty low overall to begin with).

And Let's be PERFECTLY, CRYSTAL CLEAR HERE: I NEVER said it was my business or that anyone should not be free to choose what method they carry - Open, Concealed, whatever you want (as long as it's legal, but that's another discussion), because it is your choice and it should not matter how the snowflakes and others feel. I usually CC because it's overall, less hassle, but under certain circumstances, I OC, but I apparently recognize better than most here, that OC, while it does have the potential to thwart a crime without ever knowing a crime was thwarted, it is not without a certain amount of added risk.

My entire point was to point out that you all (or most of you) keep 'screaming' that 'OC does not make you a bigger target', is not without some potential added risk, etc., even though there really is no good hard data to point either way. Again, lets be honest, most of the places where you really could be more likely to become a bigger target like NYC and Chicago, for example, you CAN'T OC, and those where you can, overall, tend to be 'more civilized", and OC REALLY isn't super common these days, not NEARLY as common as CC, mainly because of 'stigma' and ordinances - there really isn't exactly an over-abundance of data. The linked articles are about the 'softcore' criminals I mentioned - and just because it's LEGAL in a bunch of states, doesn't mean it's COMMON, and the states that allow OC tend to also allow CC, so there is that to consider as well. You need to take that into account for the 'states that allow OC have lower crime rates' bits, as the POTENTIAL for a target to be armed even if you can't tell tends to be a bit of a deterrent as well. Crime rates generally tend to drop after passing CCW laws, so...... While it certainly is not on the same level of a uniformed LEO that's basically screaming 'LOOK AT ME! I'M ARMED AND I CAN STOP YOU!', the potential for someone OCing becoming a greater target because they are OCing is NOT zero like so many of you seem to feel and keep saying. Like I said, the 'softcore' criminal is likely to be deterred if they see it, but the hell bent, on a mission to kill types are much more likely to target ANYONE with a firearm (probably assuming that the OCer is LEO anyway), unless the armed individual gets really lucky and when the attacker shows up, and the firearm is hidden from view due to positioning - but if they come up behind you and they see it, odds are you'll be dead before you know what happened.

Anyway, I'm done with this. I've said my bits, but you guys seem unable or unwilling accept that using simple logic, OCing CAN (not WILL) make you a primary target and while the odds are low, they're NOT zero. :shrug:

Stay Safe.
 
Last edited:

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,848
Location
here nc
357sigfan, forgive this late observation, but you are correct utilizing your narrowly constructed premise of the two metropolitan cities which are communities where citizens carrying firearms, OC/CC, is verboten w/o special, very special privilege, from those in charge. There are also other pockets in this union where this is the norm and citizens are limited, by statutory mandates, on their method of carry.

This combined with a BG’s altered mental focus of not truly understanding those citizens around them ‘could’ be a threat to their mission of robbery or other mayhem, generally ignore the OC’g public in those locales where the practice is accepted/tolerated.

Point of reference and i do not wish to presume to speak for anyone but myself, i carry for the the sole purpose to protect my loved one(s) who might be with me and myself ~ period!

I also do not carry extra mags stapped to my body to present any illusion i am a wantabe LE and if, 18, or 21, or 30 rounds in my mag, depending on locale, etc., cannot protect my tired derrière, i guess i will move on to my final bucket-list goal on seeing what religion the deity above, if there is one, truly is!

Your point of could, might, maybe the carrying public is a target for BGs intent on mayhem is valid for you and your personal mental self defensive mechanism and your perspective of the world is built around that concept, so be it! There are others who have mentally accepted the extremely low risk of even being involved in an incident and mentally prepared for their reaction to it.

guess what, we won’t know who was right until the exact scenario acts out as we described it! Even then murphy regularly changes small details we do not even perceive of and we both fail on our mental planning!

the best laid plans of mice and men...
 
Last edited:

HP995

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
730
Location
MO, USA
357, if it makes you feel any better, I agree with one of your main points:

that in no way makes it absolutely certain that an open carrier will go unnoticed
And I partly agree with the other - that it could raise the target risk level in some situations. But from incidents so far, usually the opposite is true.

There are tons of real-life reports of OC'ers being noticed, many recorded here in this OCDO forum. Mostly noticed in a friendly or respectful way! Less often, questioned or asked to leave an establishment. OC'ers and their firearms are not invisible to the public, at least not from all angles. That's easy to prove.

People who regularly OC over time at their job, such as a school or church, can also be known and their firearm noticed. Other people have the ability to remember that Mr. Smith carries a gun and use that knowledge in a future situation. Not invisible. That's also easy to prove. Should be no disagreement with those. The contention is whether that's a good or bad thing.

Statistically OC is safe. It's usually effective as a deterrent, therefore it's usually a good thing. I would say that's a fact, not an opinion, based on all the evidence so far. But statistics can't guarantee or control an individual outcome - also a fact. No contradiction in acknowledging both! Possible to be targeted if you are a known regular at the venue? Absolutely! Just needs a criminal with a certain mindset. Statistically likely? No. More likely to deter? Yes.

As for being shot by responding police, I don't see how it matters. OC or CC, if the gun comes out, it's now part of the scene! Always a risk there either way.

Make your own choice and let others make theirs, I fully respect people who go either way. If I were a principal or pastor, I would want multiple staff doing both! Deter and surprise, best of both worlds. If it had to be just one or the other, I would want the staff to OC. Better to have a strong chance of avoiding the crime altogether (zero lives lost) than to have a mass shooting start and then end it with surprise (some lives lost). But there is no guarantee of the outcome.

the best laid plans of mice and men...
Gang aft agley!
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,933
Location
White Oak Plantation
The Kirkwood shooter methodically planned his attack. Remove immediate threats that would prevent him from carrying out his planned assassinations. Cops are obvious targets, citizen OCers are not.
What we do know is that the Kirkwood shooter shot cops. What we do not know, nor will we ever know, is if he planned his attack methodically and reconnoitered his targets in advance. Knowing that one or more cops will be present at a council meeting takes no reconnoitering, it is common knowledge. OCers are not obvious targets. We all know, those of us who regularly OC that is, that our OC'd handgun is rarely noticed. I would contend that those who carry CC or OC are more likely to notice a citizen OCing, we do then to notice more things because we are lawfully armed.

Originally Posted by 357SigFan
Can you say, with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, that had the uniformed officers not been present, but instead, average citizens with open carried firearms, he would not have still targeted those armed individuals first? The answer is, no, you can't. Frankly, to exclude uniformed police officers is flawed thinking, and arguably doing the same thing the antis do with numbers and 'adjusting' them to fit your narrative. A person openly carrying a firearm is a person open carrying a firearm - Uniformed LEO or not.
What you stated is that a citizen OCing makes them a target. This position is the foundation of CC Industrial Complex. You provide "what if" the cops were not there. You provide "what if" the assassin reconnoitered his target. O.ne what if is patently false, cops were there and everyone knows this who happens to have half a IQ point. The other none of us will ever know and will remain pure conjecture

You do not OC, your choice, but your "OC makes you a target" position is infested with "what ifs" and not on real world experiences however annechdotal they may be. I get it and agree that STL is not a place to OC without knowing the risks involved, primarily from STLMPD, and likely STLCPD as well. NSTL is a place I would not travel to no matter how armed I might be. Out here in the wild wild west of far west St Charles County folks are more inclined to CC than OC because they are more concerned with cops hassling them, a completely unfounded and irrational fear from my experiences.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

https://www.google.com/search?q=female+concealed+carry+thigh+holsters&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkzIS0su7ZAhVQ92MKHQJuDpQQ_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=631

My DW has two of these CC thigh holsters for more formal occasions. The CNN nitwit proves again the nitwittery that is displayed on CNN on a daily basis. He certainly does not approve of women empowering themselves to be responsible for their own safety and security. He likely desires/prefers the bare foot/kitchen woman.
 

HPmatt

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
1,453
Location
Dallas
Police find gun concealed in buttocks of Lafourche Parish man



I could not resist. Obviously someone has been doing 'deep cover' research on such a memorable thread.
In honor of the members of OCDO that are now silent...

https://wgno.com/2019/01/03/police-find-gun-concealed-in-buttocks-of-lafourche-parish-man/

Re: the first article - be sure to look at both pics - only brings to my mind the mystery....which one...
This brings to mind One of the more memorable links I have read as an Adult...(which my wife still might debate).

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/concealed-carry-at-nudist-camp.19897/
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,848
Location
here nc
And you wondered why they had such an interesting smile in his mug shot.
 

skin'erback

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2012
Messages
29
Location
missouri
I trust the teacher to protect my child. I will prosecute the leo that assaults that teacher to the final injection. I don't get the luxury of being wrong and they don't either.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
7,848
Location
here nc
Or immediate retirement after obvious dereliction of duty during a school shooting sustaining their six figure annual retirement.
Is that what the one in Broward County got for not going into the school?
yepper per FL sun sentinel,
QUOTE;
Peterson, the sheriff’s deputy vilified for failing to confront the Parkland school shooter, has begun receiving a state pension of $8,702.35 a month.

Peterson resigned and retired Feb. 22, a week after the massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, where he waited outside as Nikolas Cruz killed 17 people and wounded 17 others.

Peterson began to receive his pension in April, according to the Florida Department of Management Services. He can receive the payments for the rest of his life.

The 55-year-old Peterson, a Broward deputy for 32 years, was paid $101,879.03 last year — $75,673.72 in base salary plus overtime and other compensation, according to sheriff’s office records. Until the shooting, he was considered a trusted school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas, according to annual reviews of his performance.

He was eligible to retire from the agency in July 2010 when he had 25 years of service, a sheriff’s office spokeswoman said Wednesday.
 
Top