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Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

HankT

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This incident definitely brings to mind HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense (HPCSD):


It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.



Once again, HPCSD is found to be supported. Alas, it is unfortunate that Mr. Zimmerman did not take heed of it.

It is amazing how accurate and robust this postulate has been throughout the years...
 

1245A Defender

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north mason county, Washington, USA
well,,,

Welcome back HankT after an 8 month absence...

Once again your postulate has been proven accurate and robust,,
It is indeed always true that ,,, it is a bad stategy to shoot an unarmed person, or man, or boy.

BTW I have missed your guidance...
 

markand

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VA
It may well be that the neighborhood watch guy is protected by Florida's "2005 stand your ground" statute and there is no state crime that can be prosecuted. In that event, the FBI will look to see if a federal crime was committed. Those crimes would include civil rights violations and hate crimes, given that the dead kid was black and the neighborhood watch captain was white. Not saying any of that's right, not saying who did what or who's at fault, but I imagine that's what the FBI is going to do. If he can't be prosecuted at the state level, see if there's an applicable federal crime.
 

Jack House

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I have not seen a single article that states what happened between the initial phone call to 911 and the shot being fired other than pleas for help.

He probably shouldn't have followed the boy, but no one knows what happened. I don't know why people are jumping on the "bad shoot" bandwagon. Seems like that is most people's go to response in most cases of a shooting, even without knowing anything.
 
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HankT

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Once again your postulate has been proven accurate and robust,,
It is indeed always true that ,,, it is a bad stategy to shoot an unarmed person, or man, or boy.
Heya, 1245A, greetings back atcha.

Yes, HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense (HPCSD) is now the received view in SD situations of nearly any type involving non-LEOs. Here it is again, for those who might have somehow missed it:


It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.

It has always been found to apply. Always.

Although Mr. Zimmerman has failed to utilize the wisdom of HPCSD, the information released so far has not conclusively determined that he is guilty of a crime.

Here is the pertinent statue wording:

The new law codified in Florida Statutes 776.013(3)(2006) states:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

This new law expands upon Florida's preexisting castle doctrine and permits one to stand their ground anywhere. Florida Statutes 776.032(1) then holds in pertinent part:

A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force...


(http://www.hessingerlaw.com/Articles/Self-Defense-and-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-Law.aspx)

All Zimmerman has to do is articulate how he reasonably believed that a skinny 17 year old with a bag of Skittles and a soft drink constituted a threat of death or great bodily harm. If he can do that, he should be OK, although it may cost him a bundle in legal fees.

If Zimmerman cannot show a reasonable belief that Martin was a threat to his life/limb, then he is in for a very rough time with the criminal justice system, including the federal level.

Either way, HankT's Postulate of Civilian Self-Defense clearly applies.

The key to this case seems to be the substance and completeness of the investigation that Sgt. Anthony Raimondo performed after the shooting. Unfortunately, Raimondo doesn't have a stellar track record as far as thoroughly investigating controversial assaults (see Justin Collison case). And Sanford PD is not exactly the most competent LEA out there. It has history.
 

Jack House

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Because it was. He put himself into the picture.
He had every right to do so. You do not know what happened during the altercation, nor do you know what caused it. All you know is that he followed a person he deemed suspicious for possibly the wrong reasons, that someone pleaded for help and that a shot was fired, killing the boy. If the earlier quote is true, that the man was the one pleading for help, that the kid was beating him senseless and went for the gun, then it's a valid case of self defense. But that entire altercation has been ignored by the media. Why? The police did not see fit to arrest him because they said the evidence supported his claim. If the kid was beating him senseless, then evidence would abound that it was a self defense shooting and that would be why the police would not arrest him.

The police generally always arrest someone in a self defense shooting, only when it's blatantly obvious that the shooting was actual self defense do they decline to arrest the shooter. That vs the statement by the family's attorney, which is more credible?
 

rushcreek2

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The fact that the kid shot and killed by the N/W associate was 14 year old B/M does not support any conclusion beyond the facts that he was a 14 year old B/M , and that he was in fact shot by the N/W associate. Evidence supporting, or countering the shooter's affirmative defense for his actions will speak for itself.
 
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deepdiver

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I figured there was more to this than was being reported in the MSM. I am hopeful that more information as to the details of the physical encounter are made public as what has been put out there thus far, except by an essentially anonymous commenter claiming an attack by the dead youth, certainly looks bad for the shooter.
 

223to45

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If the earlier quote is true, that the man was the one pleading for help, that the kid was beating him senseless and went for the gun, then it's a valid case of self defense.

I am calling BS, have you seen the pictures of two??

The guy got out of the car, for what because he was carrying a bag a skittles and a bottle of tea??
 

Gil223

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The most recent eye-witness report (which I heard about on the radio in my car today) indicates that the NW moron chased the kid down on foot after leaving his car and began antagonizing him with various threatening behaviors. I wasn't there, but, if the story is true, there's much more to it than we were initially told by the media. The situation surrounding the kid's untimely demise demands - as a minimum - a serious, in-depth police investigation.Pax...
 

Jack House

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I am calling BS, have you seen the pictures of two??

The guy got out of the car, for what because he was carrying a bag a skittles and a bottle of tea??
If you're talking about the difference in size, then stop. Size is irrelevant in a fight. Knowing how to fight, having the mental capacity to fight and having experience in fights is infinitely more important than size.

I don't care that he got out of the car, it's not important. What is important is what caused the confrontation.

The most recent eye-witness report (which I heard about on the radio in my car today) indicates that the NW moron chased the kid down on foot after leaving his car and began antagonizing him with various threatening behaviors. I wasn't there, but, if the story is true, there's much more to it than we were initially told by the media. The situation surrounding the kid's untimely demise demands - as a minimum - a serious, in-depth police investigation.Pax...
This^
 

wrightme

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The fact that the kid shot and killed by the N/W associate was 14 year old B/M does not support any conclusion beyond the facts that he was a 14 year old B/M , and that he was in fact shot by the N/W associate. Evidence supporting, or countering the shooter's affirmative defense for his actions will speak for itself.
The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy
...
From the article linked in the OP.
 

HankT

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If you're talking about the difference in size, then stop. Size is irrelevant in a fight.
That is an interesting view.


Here is an informative article about the applicable law in Florida:

Stand Your Ground fathers: Trayvon Martin's killer should likely be arrested, doesn't deserve immunity

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html

"The fathers of Florida’s controversial Stand Your Ground law ...Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley say the law they passed in 2005 was designed to protect citizens by giving them the right to “meet force with force.”
Both men say they don’t know all the facts of Trayvon's case. But, they say they believe the law would not allow a person like George Zimmerman to pursue and confront a person like Trayvon and then use deadly force."



It's looking grim for Mr. Zimmerman. We'll have to wait, though, for his explanation of why he believed he was in danger of death or severe bodily injury. Then, someone, not him, has to determine if he was being reasonable about his fear, as required by the relevant statutes.
 

Gil223

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In re: Florida "Stand Your Ground Law"
But, they say they believe the law would not allow a person like George Zimmerman to pursue and confront a person like Trayvon and then use deadly force."
The key here seems to be the fact that, by all reports, Zimmerman pursued the young man prior to taking his life. If this is an accurate description of what happened, Zimmerman was well outside the protections of virtually any SYG. In most jurisdictions SYG simply removes the requirement to retreat as far as possible from a potentially deadly confrontation. It does not allow people to pursue, initiate contact, confront and then cry "I was in fear for my life" as an excuse for taking the life of another human being. Pursuit, initiation of contact and confrontation are all personal choices which created the conditions for the final act. (It's a good thing I won't be on Zimmerman's jury. He would need the greatest lawyer the world has ever seen to convince me that he had acted within the requirements of the SYG law.) :cuss: Pax...
 
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Steeler-gal

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Fairfax County, VA
I am calling BS, have you seen the pictures of two??

The guy got out of the car, for what because he was carrying a bag a skittles and a bottle of tea??
911 dispatch told him not to follow and he did. It's my understanding that most Neighborhood Watch isn't supposed to engage jus report when they see things.


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wrightme

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In re: Florida "Stand Your Ground Law"

The key here seems to be the fact that, by all reports, Zimmerman pursued the young man prior to taking his life. If this is an accurate description of what happened, Zimmerman was well outside the protections of virtually any SYG. In most jurisdictions SYG simply removes the requirement to retreat as far as possible from a potentially deadly confrontation. It does not allow people to pursue, initiate contact, confront and then cry "I was in fear for my life" as an excuse for taking the life of another human being. Pursuit, initiation of contact and confrontation are all personal choices which created the conditions for the final act. (It's a good thing I won't be on Zimmerman's jury. He would need the greatest lawyer the world has ever seen to convince me that he had acted within the requirements of the SYG law.) :cuss: Pax...
Frankly, I do not recall ANY report stating that Zimmerman pursued him. Now, do pay attention to the difference between 'report,' and 'conjecture not based in a known fact.'
 
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Gil223

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Frankly, I do not recall ANY report stating that Zimmerman pursued him. Now, do pay attention to the difference between 'report,' and 'conjecture not based in a known fact.'
Of course you don't. It's very hard to hear with your head "up and locked"...
 
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