Few questions from a new guy...

[MadHatter66]

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Been lurking a while. I have 2 actual questions.

1. Anyone have any knowledge of how apartment complexes can fall into OC? It is not posted anywhere, and no where in the rental agreement. Being that it is private property I am curious about how it would fall in. I know that I can do what I want within the confines of my own residence, rented or otherwise...But if I wanted to say, walk my dog while OCing, what, (if anything) could they say?

2. Are there any retention requirements? Now that goes without saying that I would never go to a mall, or open event with an open holster, because of the possibility of a gun-grab, but I am curious if there are any actual requirements that anyone knows about? Being a responsible gun owner, I would never venture out with less then a thumb break, if not a level 3 holster, but in theory could you just use a open top kydex holster?


Wish I would have caught the Kitsap meet, but that how I heard about all of this, so some good did come from it...

 

[sv_libertarian]

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As a renter you should have all rights anyone else has. I don't believe a landlord can restrict your civil rights, but I'm not certain.

There is no requirement for a particular level of retention. It's whatever you are most comfortable with. I have OC'd with a simple open top holster and know others who do as well. I am quite content with a snug holster and a strap or thumbreak. There is minimal risk of a gun grab.

As far as I know every mall in this state has a "no weapons" polciy. If you must pack in a mall do it CC. It will make your life easier. Personally if they don't want my gun, then they don't get my money.

Welcome aboard, I hope this helps.

 

[Bear 45/70]

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MadHatter66 wrote:

Been lurking a while. I have 2 actual questions.

1. Anyone have any knowledge of how apartment complexes can fall into OC? It is not posted anywhere, and no where in the rental agreement. Being that it is private property I am curious about how it would fall in. I know that I can do what I want within the confines of my own residence, rented or otherwise...But if I wanted to say, walk my dog while OCing, what, (if anything) could they say?

2. Are there any retention requirements? Now that goes without saying that I would never go to a mall, or open event with an open holster, because of the possibility of a gun-grab, but I am curious if there are any actual requirements that anyone knows about? Being a responsible gun owner, I would never venture out with less then a thumb break, if not a level 3 holster, but in theory could you just use a open top kydex holster?


Wish I would have caught the Kitsap meet, but that how I heard about all of this, so some good did come from it...

In your apartment you can carry anyway you want as it is your abode.

There are no retention requirements by law. Besides your primary retention peice of equipment is between your ears. Gun grabs are so rare as to be non-existant. OCers are not gonna be chasing and wrestling a bag guy to the groundwhich is where cops lose their guns.

 

[MadHatter66]

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Thanks for the replys...

I was just using the mall as an example, but that answer helps... I was a "LEO" in the military (USCG, so you get the ""), so I am very aware when carrying...


I know that when inside my physical apartment I can do as I wish. What I was curious about open areas, and common areas like the open lawn, or the parking lot...

 

[asforme]

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MadHatter66 wrote:

Thanks for the replys...

I was just using the mall as an example, but that answer helps... I was a "LEO" in the military (USCG, so you get the ""), so I am very aware when carrying...


I know that when inside my physical apartment I can do as I wish. What I was curious about open areas, and common areas like the open lawn, or the parking lot...

Even if they didn't like it, I think they'd be hard pressed to find a way to enforce it. If it's not in the lease they can't evict you AFIAK, and of course they couldn't issue trespass against you because you have to be able to go through the common areas to get to your dwelling.
I am not a lawyer, this is just what I would conclude from common sense.

 

[joeroket]

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The only time a landlord can use firearms as an exuse to evict you is if you do something unlawful with it on the property even if they try and restrict firearms in the lease. In Wa. just because it is written in the lease does not mean it is a lawful condition of tenancy.

RCW 59.18.130 states;

Each tenant shall pay the rental amount at such times and in such amounts as provided for in the rental agreement or as otherwise provided by law and comply with all obligations imposed upon tenants by applicable provisions of all municipal, county, and state codes, statutes, ordinances, and regulations, and in addition shall:


(8) Not engage in any activity at the rental premises that is:

(a) Imminently hazardous to the physical safety of other persons on the premises; and

(b)(i) Entails physical assaults upon another person which result in an arrest; or

(ii) Entails the unlawful use of a 9A.04.110 which results in an arrest, including threatening another tenant or the landlord with a 59.18.352. Nothing in this subsection (8) shall authorize the termination of tenancy and eviction of the victim of a physical assault or the victim of the use or threatened use of a firearm or other deadly weapon;

 

[computerizedfish]

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joeroket wrote:

The only time a landlord can use firearms as an exuse to evict you is if you do something unlawful with it on the property even if they try and restrict firearms in the lease. In Wa. just because it is written in the lease does not mean it is a lawful condition of tenancy.

Could you elaborate on this? I was researching this the other day and it seemed that a lease can restrict firearms. It seemed that Washington doesnt have a law that protects firearm rights for renters.

 

[joeroket]

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This requires the tenant to conform to all reasonable restrictions and obligations, but the reasonable restriction or obligation cannot be contrary to state law. They can however restrict visitors from possesing firearms, they still maintain the right to control behavior and rules as well as tresspass anyone who is not a tenant.

Now granted they do not say what is reasonable but the Heller case has already determined that restricting firearms in your house is unreasonable. As far as restricting it on the premises it is considered common or shared by all tenants and in is essence part of your apartment property. A ruling against SanFrancisco comes about thier restriction of firearms in city owned low income housing will, in my opinion, solidify the fact that landlords cannot restrict them in a lease or rules. There have been a few lower state courts, Missouri and Virginia prior to the Heller case, that have ruled that firearms can be restricted in public housing but the san francisco case is based exactly on that.

In my years of renting I have yet to see a rental agreement that restricted firearms anyway. Once a lease is signed they can only evict you if you are arrested for unlawful use of a firearm. Any changes mid lease must be agreed upon by both landlord and tenant

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.140

The tenant shall conform to all reasonable obligations or restrictions, whether denominated by the landlord as rules, rental agreement, rent, or otherwise, concerning the use, occupation, and maintenance of his dwelling unit, appurtenances thereto, and the property of which the dwelling unit is a part if such obligations and restrictions are not in violation of any of the terms of this chapter and are not otherwise contrary to law, and if such obligations and restrictions are brought to the attention of the tenant at the time of his initial occupancy of the dwelling unit and thus become part of the rental agreement. Except for termination of tenancy, after thirty days written notice to each affected tenant, a new rule of tenancy including a change in the amount of rent may become effective upon completion of the term of the rental agreement or sooner upon mutual consent.

 

[Izzle]

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Now if only I was given the right to carry in my rented apartment, since it's run by the school they seem to think they have the right to restrict firearms even in my home, tisk tisk good thing I'm moving in a month.

 

[MadHatter66]

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I know that your residence, rented or other wise would fall under the protection of the Heller case. That stands without question. Being that you are paying someone for property, it becomes in essence your property, under the managed care of the land lord. The landlord must be able to inspect the property, but must provide ample notification…In my mind this would solidify the fact that you have pseudo rights to the property, that even the owner, and landlord cannot fully trump.


The question becomes does common area, of say an apartment complex, become private property of the management, and fall under the guise of such. Can a land lord, in an apartment complex post a prohibition against weapons? And then supply the tenant with a policy stating such, like is required by a business. Or being that you are paying, and established residence there; does the common area become part or your property?


In the case of renting say a house, the structure and the property become your property, and you would be exempt from getting a CC permit as in the Heller case, becasue that becomes your residence.


I do know that you cannot get trespassed from an apartment wile you are still a renter there, that would in effect be withholding you from your established residence. A landlord would have to evict you, and then trespass you. Which they can do, even while you stuff is still in the residence, and then require a civil standby to move out. I have seen that happen quite a few times. In the case of non-payment they may evict you, trespass you, and hold your stuff as collateral for non-payment. As far as I can tell, there is no way for a landlord to evict you, unless it’s unlawful use of a firearm. As Joeroket said…


Hmm…

 

[computerizedfish]

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I have the same problem as Izzle. The apartment that I am renting is run by the university and they have a clause that says no firearms at all. I was wondering about the legality of this after the Heller case.