• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Front Sight training

Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,172
Location
earth's crust
#21
i wonder what is done with the data collected from their customers? what criteria is the citizen adjudicated against to validate they qualify to 'take a course'?

citizens whine when we must show our ID to TSA, nice LE, ad nauseam....yet here is a private business entity asking for and being handing, by the law biding and gun toting citizen, their personal and private background information without hesitation?

where is the data going, how is it being stored, and so forth, etc., however, no forum member has asked this question...

interesting.

ipse
I've asked what they do with the info. They keep it. They promise not to share the info..but its really just a non-binding promise.

You can call them yourself and confirm the information. Me? No ID for TSA, LEO w/o arrest (I don't carry an ID with me anyway), and I will not be spending my not-hard earned dollars with places that require me to show ID.
 

28kfps

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
1,533
Location
Pointy end and slightly to the left
#22
702.837.7433

I called them ^^^.

Asked if I could take courses anonymously. Nope --- BR chk required.

Why? They could not explain the policy to my satisfaction.

I don't assume that just because a person is in the gun business that they are pro-gun. I have talked to many antis who are FFLs...its a businesses and they are able to have anti-leanings and still be in the business.

Not one word about "safety" was said by the company during my call.

Suffice it to say that they will not allow anyone who refuses to be subjected to a BR chk to participate in most of their classes.
I was not trying to be a smart a$$ with my statement of Obviously you are a very active knowable poster call Front Sight and ask them. Thanks for sharing the info. Not the answer you wanted however it was an answer. Sounds like mostly a runaround answer. Not one word about safety as a reason. Interesting as it is one of the main subject during training.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
6,651
Location
here nc
#23
I was not trying to be a smart a$$ with my statement of Obviously you are a very active knowable poster call Front Sight and ask them. Thanks for sharing the info. Not the answer you wanted however it was an answer. Sounds like mostly a runaround answer. Not one word about safety as a reason. Interesting as it is one of the main subject during training.
of course safety is one of the main subjects during training...first, they already have all your personal data, your money, and...
oh, wait a moment...don't the nice LEs also have the courts convinced everything they do to a citizen is for the nice LE's safety?

where was i....

ipse
 

28kfps

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
1,533
Location
Pointy end and slightly to the left
#24
Front Sight has a very good business model.

$50.00 x thousands of students per year = lots of dollars

Good bad or otherwise that is one of the costs if one wants to attend their training.

Being a well credentialed instructor I can offer very similar training one on one or one on 2 or 3 for a very reasonable fee.

I have set up, ran and instructed courses when we had many 10s of students. Not that one can not get good instruction in a large class.

It is a different dynamic then individual or one on two or 3 students.
Front Sight has something going. Judging from the students and instructors I have talked to while being there I would say 90% are from out of state. I believe they all could find local reasonable priced training but chose to go through the travel expense to train at Front Sight. For me my Lifetime Membership good for all training they offer was $250. My schedule allows me to get 60 to 80 hours of tactical training a year for the cost of $50 for the background check. If my schedule would allow me I could do 4 days a week of training every week if I could afford the ammo and time still costs me $50 a year for the background check. They supply the targets the tape for the targets, don’t need to bring a chair or ice water they supply that. Shade is provided. I really don’t care what they do with the $50. I agree with the concern on how well they protect and keep the info they gain however I believe it to be in better hands than our Government which recently had a breach of government and contracted employees security clearance info, Mine being included. Now some foreigner group knows more about me than my wife of 35 years.
 

Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,028
Location
northern wis
#25
It is amazing how many places especially in the large urban areas that good tactical training is lacking.

There gun ranges where one can shoot but many only allow you to shoot standing, no drawing ect with many more restrictions

I am blessed with a couple hundred of acres to train on including a 600 yard range.

Gun site offers a good product and with you living close by allows you to take advantage of it.

There is an advantage to being the big kid on the block for sure.
 

Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,028
Location
northern wis
#28
Killing a guy on a zipline, great training.[/QUOTE


One should stay home and never do anything even then one is not absolutely safe. Actively is dangerous.

One also expects the people running the activities to be competent.


I knew a couple of guys in their 40s who went to a retreat and during the break they walked by the zip line and said wow cool. They climbed over the gate, passed the warning signs.

The first one down smacked the platform on the other end and really broke himself up lucky he was not killed.
 

Last edited:
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,028
Location
northern wis
#29
Heres the story

Saturday, October 15, 2011




Front Sight Firearms Training Institute settles with family of man killed www.privateofficer.com



LAS VEGAS NV Oct 15 2011-- After more than four years, the family of a man killed in a zipline accident at a southern Nevada gun range has finally received some measure of justice.

Jesus Valencia died in full view of his family during a Fourth of July celebration at the Front Sight Firearms Training Institute near Pahrump, and the resulting lawsuit reveals new details about the events that lead to his death.

Front Sight's settlement with the Valencia family is confidential, but 8 News NOW is familiar with the terms. Valencia's wife and two children will receive more than $2 million to end their wrongful death suit, with the last payment due in 2013. Front Sight does not admit wrongdoing in the settlement papers, other than to acknowledge it did not have liability insurance to cover the incident.

But four years worth of legal filings suggests negligence by the company and employees caused the death of a beloved husband and father.

"When I got there, he was dying. He was leaving me. I told him not to leave me, that I wanted him here," said Valencia's wife Dalia Valencia.

Jesus Valencia died in front of his wife, his two young children, and his parents when he slammed into the steel platform of a scissor lift used to lower participants from a zipline.

"We lost our son because of negligence, because of something that could have been avoided if people were trained like they're supposed to. It shouldn't have happened," said Velencia's father Jesus Valencia, III.

Valencia's father's suspicions seem solidified in the hundreds of pages of legal documents filed in his wrongful death suit. Only portions of depositions from Front Sight employees have been released, but the information tells the tale of what happened that day.

Deposition testimony from Front Sight Operation's Manager Brad Ackman details the zipline's safety procedures. Participants, Ackman explains, should be tethered to the tower to prevent falls or premature take-off. Yet John Pierson, the employee manning the platform, acknowledges he hooked Valencia only to the zipline as he was instructed.

Pierson says there was no discussion during his five minutes of training on the apparatus about how the employee at the top should communicate with the employee at the bottom. As a result, Pierson explains, neither employee exchanged a verbal or visual all clear signal before Valencia slid down the line.

"When he went down, I heard somebody say something -- one of the other instructors say he shouldn't have left. So I turned to see what was the problem. Then I heard him say put it down or something," said Jesus Valencia, III.

Pierson had a radio that day, yet to his surprise, John Kinnel, the scissor lift operator below did not. Kinnel testifies he was still unhooking Valencia's 5-year-old daughter, who had ridden the zipline immediately before her dad, when he heard Valencia coming his way.

Kinnel says he yelled for help, and then realized, "It probably didn't do any good," and returned his attention to the child. Kinnel describes hearing Valencia strike the platform and then working to distract his daughter from her dying father.

"My daughter is devastated. She dreams and says her daddy fell and her daddy bled," said Dalia Valencia.

In his deposition, Ackman notes, "I can tell you the protocol was not followed. There is never an occasion when a participant should impact the scissors lift. No way."

Ackman points the finger at Pierson, as did Front Sight founder Dr. Ignatius Piazza, the self-proclaimed Millionaire Patriot, at least initially.

A letter sent to Front Sight members the day after Valencia's death says, "This tragedy was not the fault of our fallen first family member," meaning Valencia. But Piazza's subsequent written accounts increasingly shift responsibility to Valencia himself.

Currently posted on Front Sight's website, Piazza writes, "Evidentially, the participant was distracted by his family."

Yet in deposition testimony, Ackman says, "I have no reason to think that the Valencias would be able to distract the people that are up on the platform. It's a very focused job."

"I don't want this to happen to another family, to another member, what happened to us. Front Sight, tell us the truth," said Dalia Valencia.

Front Sight settled just before trial after four years of contentious litigation. In court records, Piazza is accused of intentionally obstructing the process. The court sanctioned Front Sight repeatedly for failing to follow orders and Piazza was a no show more than once for his scheduled deposition.

Because of the confidential nature of the settlement, the Valencia family and their attorneys declined to comment for this story. Front Sight did not respond to requests for comment.

Source:8NewsNow


Posted by PRIVATE OFFICER BREAKING NEWS at 5:06 AM
 

Dave_pro2a

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
2,132
Location
, ,
#30
There are.... a few other court cases too.

Something about promises made to property buyers and members. Something about... things not being built and money not refunded iirc.

Not my problem ;) Just that based on my recollection, Front Sight has some issues.
 

Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,172
Location
earth's crust
#31
I was not trying to be a smart a$$ with my statement of Obviously you are a very active knowable poster call Front Sight and ask them. Thanks for sharing the info. Not the answer you wanted however it was an answer. Sounds like mostly a runaround answer. Not one word about safety as a reason. Interesting as it is one of the main subject during training.
I did not take offense but agreed that someone should call them; so I did and provided that info.

Folks are free to partake in their services with the knowledge provided.

You want training? Just go down to my old Chicago neighborhood on a nice warm summer evening...training will commence immediately.
 

Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,172
Location
earth's crust
#32
There are.... a few other court cases too.

Something about promises made to property buyers and members. Something about... things not being built and money not refunded iirc.

Not my problem ;) Just that based on my recollection, Front Sight has some issues.
http://www.dianahsieh.com/frontsight/lawsuit.2002.10.29.html

A 2002 lawsuit ^^^ notice the poor pleading of defamation ... There is no alleged facts that support that actual injury occurred ...

The lawsuit was settled just before the case was scheduled to go to trial in April 2005. http://www.dianahsieh.com/frontsight/
Of course, the terms of the settlement are likely secret...
 

Last edited:

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
6,651
Location
here nc
#33
and in the Chicago area they never call the range safe...life like training on a realistic scale and environment.

ipse
 

28kfps

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
1,533
Location
Pointy end and slightly to the left
#34
of course safety is one of the main subjects during training...first, they already have all your personal data, your money, and...
oh, wait a moment...don't the nice LEs also have the courts convinced everything they do to a citizen is for the nice LE's safety?

where was i....

ipse
The DMV has my info and money, The bank has my info and money, The gun shops that I have purchased firearms from has my info and money, Every car I purchased from a dealer has my info and my money, My doctors has my info and my money, the finance company has my info and my money, The state CCW system has my info and money, County Tax system has my info and my money, Visa, Chase and others have my info and free money, ya right. I have as I said already a federal security clearance the system was breached earlier this year, so now some foreign groups have my info of me and my family. I am hoping to protect my money (very little) from them.
My least concern is Front Sight having my info. Money sure best value of anything I have ever purchased. $250 for the life time membership $50 a year for several thousands of dollars of tactical firearm training every year a short distance from my home. What a stupid move on my part.
If you ever want onetime 2 day training, the training fee is on me. You just have to give them your info and $50 for the background check.
I will say I have no interest in doing their zip line. Like the old saying the best way to survive a gun fight is not get in one. The best way to survive a zip line is not getting on one.
 

Last edited:
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,028
Location
northern wis
#35
Never been there but it does look like they have some good ranges.

Most people do not have access to their own private ranges.

Just in property taxes alone I pay a lot more then then some of their courses cost.

But then I just have to walk to my closest range a whole 50 feet from the door.

Having spent decades learning, instructing firearms and tactics.

Having instructor certificates from 3 certifying organizations in rifle, pistol, shotgun, patrol rifle, police shotgun.

Armorer certificates from Colt, Ruger, Remington, and Glock

I most likely not going to Front Sight.
 

28kfps

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
1,533
Location
Pointy end and slightly to the left
#36
I just have to walk to my closest range a whole 50 feet from the door.

Having spent decades learning, instructing firearms and tactics.

Having instructor certificates from 3 certifying organizations in rifle, pistol, shotgun, patrol rifle, police shotgun.

Armorer certificates from Colt, Ruger, Remington, and Glock

I most likely not going to Front Sight.

Way cool. I’m not that guy or certified so I’m going.
 

azcdlfred

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
905
Location
Tucson, Arizona, USA
#38
If nothing else this fund raising thread was dead for a year. Check out AzCDL Front Sight offer.
Last I looked they still offer the memberships.
Yes, we (AzCDL) offer full-blown, all you can eat, lifetime Diamond Memberships for $200 at our online store (scroll to the bottom of the page). I paid a lot more for my memberships over the last decade or so. I got my money's worth and am a fan.

Don't like Front Sight's policies? Don't go there.

Fred
 

Last edited:

Bucko

New member
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Tucson
#39
Costa Ludus

I'm a Costa Man Fan (Chris Costa). Been to 3 of his three day training's up in Wyoming. He has a great personality, is an expert with both the handgun and rifle, and is an excellent instructor. Learned a great deal and feel I'm a better firearms owner and better prepared because of his training. www.costaludus.com

Disclaimer: I do not represent Chris Costa or his company Costa Ludus. I've been a student and have come away from his training having both enjoyed the training experience and having learned a great deal.
 

Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2018
Messages
1
Location
Las Vegas
#40
IN REGARDS TO JOHN ROBERT PIERSON. SOMETHING ID LIKE TO SAY

This was many years ago so i find my remarks to be appropriate at this time. First my deepest sympathy to the family. I often think about ypu guys. I also know my ex husband John Robert Pierson has never been the same since this tragic event.
This statement outages me to the point i feel my blood boil.
"Ackman points the finger at Pierson, as did Front Sight founder Dr. Ignatius Piazza, the self-proclaimed " pos!
Ackman and Piazza i dont know how you sleep at night. Your are both horrible arrogant human beings. You know why i feel this way. You both should be ashamed of yourselves.
I KNOW THE TRUTH. THIS IS INE SUBJECT I WILL STAND BEHIND JOHN PIERSON 100%.
JOHN PUT HIS HEART AND SOUL INTO THAT PLACE FOR YOU UNGREATFUL COWARDS. YOU KNOW DAM WELL WHY THIS HAPPENED! JOHN PIERSON RAN THE MARTIAL ARTS AND HAND GUN ALL THE WAY TO SNIPER RIFLE. HE WAS NOT TRAINED NOR CERTIFIED NOR GIVEN ANY INSTRUCTIONS THAT NIGHT. THE PERSON WHO WAS SCHEDULED TO WORK DID NOT SHOW. YOU JERKS PUT HIM UP THERE KNOWING HE WASNT CERTIFIED!!! NEITHER WAS THE KID RUNNING THE SCISSOR LIFT! I DONT BELIEVE HE WAS EVEN OLD ENOUGH TO OPERATE THAT EQUIPMENT.
YOU WANT TO RUN A ZIP LINE FOR FUN AND FAMILY YOU HAVE ONE GOD DAM HARNESSES! WHEN THAT HATNESS IS RETURNED TO THE TOP OF THE TOWER THEN NO QUESTION AS TO IF THE LINE IS CLEAR! DONT USE YOUR MILITARY TRAINING ZIP LINE AS A FAMILY FUN RIDE!
Many lives are forever damaged and i must stand up for my ex husband. He was very close to that man that he will never forgive himself for what happened that night.
If anything John Pierson should have sued you two for knowingly letting him OPERATE that zipline uncertified..JOHN PIERSON IS THE MOST MILITANTLY SAFE INSTRUCTOR I COULD EVER KNOW AND HE WAS PUT IN HARMS WAY JUST AS THE FAMILY..HE SUFFERS DEARLY.
I ALSO KNOW YOU TWO ARE SCUM BAGS. JOHN WALKED AWAY WHEN YOU TWO SHOULD HAVE TAKEN ALL THE BLAME. SHAME ON YOU..IM SORRY I HAD TO POST IN RESPECT OF JOHN R PIERSON. HE NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUT IN THAT POSITION. THAT IS THE TRUTH.
 

Top