• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

K-9 Alert Search Question

mkufams

Newbie
Joined
May 5, 2017
Messages
1
Location
Macon, GA
Very recently I was pulled over by an officer. When he walked up to the car I handed the officer my ID, my Insurance, and my carry permit. The officer asked me if I had my gun on me and I told him that I did. The officer requested I get out of the car (not sure why). The officer took my gun and put it in his car then requested to search my car. I informed the officer that there was not anything in my car and that I would rather he not search my car. At that point he called in a K-9 unit. When the K-9 officer got there I asked the officer what an alert would look like when the dog is taken around my car. The officer refused to tell me what an "alert" would look like. The officer walked the dog around the car and there was no "alert" so I was let go with my speeding ticket.

My question is, can the K-9 Officer refuse to tell me what the "K-9 alert" looks like legally?

I know this is not a typical Gun question but since the gun provoked a search, it kind of is.

Thank you for any answers you can give. Remember I live in Georgia, if that matters.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Very recently I was pulled over by an officer. When he walked up to the car I handed the officer my ID, my Insurance, and my carry permit. The officer asked me if I had my gun on me and I told him that I did. The officer requested I get out of the car (not sure why). The officer took my gun and put it in his car then requested to search my car. I informed the officer that there was not anything in my car and that I would rather he not search my car. At that point he called in a K-9 unit. When the K-9 officer got there I asked the officer what an alert would look like when the dog is taken around my car. The officer refused to tell me what an "alert" would look like. The officer walked the dog around the car and there was no "alert" so I was let go with my speeding ticket.

My question is, can the K-9 Officer refuse to tell me what the "K-9 alert" looks like legally?

I know this is not a typical Gun question but since the gun provoked a search, it kind of is.

Thank you for any answers you can give. Remember I live in Georgia, if that matters.
Welcome to OCDO... This is a clear violation of your right. Possessing a legal firearm, should not give law enforcement probable cause to detain you beyond issuing the speeding ticket.. Also, securing your firearm while he wrote you a ticket seems reasonable for officer safety, however detaining you for being a law abiding citizen and exercising a constitutional right, is clearly a violation under the 4th, 5th and 14th amendments of the Federal Constitution...

Were you handcuffed and put in the police car?... how long were you detained on the side of the road? If longer than 20 minutes, than you were clearly violated.. Officers cannot turn a Terry stop into a de facto detention, see United States v Sharpe (1985)...

Contact an attorney that is versed in filing 1983 suits, to find said attorney, vist the federal court in your area and browse any and all cases bought under " violation of rights"... Chose the attorney with the most success in these cases...

Best of luck and don't back down, your rights were clearly violated in my humble opinion.

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 
Last edited:

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,826
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Pertinent question...

Was the traffic stop extended in length to allow time for the arrival of the office with the canine? If so, that would likely be unconstituional as decided in Rodriguez v. United States No. 13-9972 when a Nebraska police officer saw a Mercury Mountaineer driven by Dennys Rodriguez veer onto the shoulder of a state highway just after midnight. The officer, Morgan Struble, performed a routine traffic stop, questioning Mr. Rodriguez and his passenger and running a records check. He then issued Mr. Rodriguez a written warning.

That completed the stop, Justice Ginsburg wrote. But Officer Struble then had his drug-sniffing dog, Floyd, circle the vehicle. Floyd smelled drugs and led his officer to a large bag of methamphetamine. About eight minutes elapsed between the written warning and Floyd’s alert.

If the officer extended the stop, or if he interrupted his writing of a ticket to allow the other officer to arrive, you'd likely have a good case (except that there is unfortunately nothing any court can do to 'make you whole' again and likely wouldn't hear the case to begin with.)
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,403
Location
White Oak Plantation
Unless your state's law directs otherwise, never inform a cop you have a firearm. DL and proof of insurance, nothing more. Contact a lawyer.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,826
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Dogs have no sense of 'truth', nor of 'honesty', the only loyalty they have is to their pack leader. If they believe the pack leader wants them to alert, they will alert whether they have found something or not.

The only way a court should admit the findings of a dog is if the dog can be examined and cross-examined on the witness stand.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,730
Location
here nc
while advocated previously...excellent reading...

Title: you and the police
by: Boston T Party

https://www.amazon.com/You-Police-Boston-T-Party/dp/1888766093

has several chapters on road stops, including K-9 usage.

key has been brought up regard the length of time.

while some have suggested contacting an attorney...mine is file a formal complaint with the LE's internal affairs as well as local sheriff's office. (local sheriff is the highest elected LE in every county)

ipse

PS: the courts have regaled the K-9 testimony to the handler...
 
Last edited:

lukaszu

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Messages
73
Location
Brighton
Just so u know

When u refuse a search then your car can be held til a k9 can arrive.. If the dog alerts then you will have your car searched.Now here is the kicker. ... It's a freaking dog. It can alert on command and since many places utilize foreign commands you propobly want know that magic word. Also having the exterior of your car sniffed isn't a violation if it's under the right circumstances. There should have been a report generated with the reason of request for k9, you may wanna check the pd for it. So your original question the answer is no.. The dog communicates to handler not you.
 
Last edited:

Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
569
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
Our little town just got a Belgian Malinois K-9 this past week. Picture in the front page paper. I've had various conversations with most of the officers and talked to the K-9 officer at length before he went to Michigan for training, and to get his dog. Dog made two MJ in vehicle busts on his first day on the job, according to the paper.

Have not met said BM yet, but I walk past his kennel and he has a BIG bark!! I think we'll leave him alone. Been asked about a dozen times in last week if my GSD is the new police dog. Nope. My dog knows German, release from stay command is "Sig Sauer".
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,730
Location
here nc
Our little town just got a Belgian Malinois K-9 this past week. Picture in the front page paper. I've had various conversations with most of the officers and talked to the K-9 officer at length before he went to Michigan for training, and to get his dog. Dog made two MJ in vehicle busts on his first day on the job, according to the paper.

Have not met said BM yet, but I walk past his kennel and he has a BIG bark!! I think we'll leave him alone. Been asked about a dozen times in last week if my GSD is the new police dog. Nope. My dog knows German, release from stay command is "Sig Sauer".
ah, a sense of humor in the cheese state...absolutely excellent!!

well played!

ipse
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,826
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
When u refuse a search then your car can be held til a k9 can arrive.. If the dog alerts then you will have your car searched.Now here is the kicker. ... It's a freaking dog. It can alert on command and since many places utilize foreign commands you propobly want know that magic word. Also having the exterior of your car sniffed isn't a violation if it's under the right circumstances. There should have been a report generated with the reason of request for k9, you may wanna check the pd for it. So your original question the answer is no.. The dog communicates to handler not you.
You may want to reconsider your "facts" in light of Rodriguez v. United States where the US Supreme Court ruled that without reasonable suspicion the police could not extend a traffic stop in order for a search dog to arrive. And refusing a search does not rise to the level of a 'reasonable suspicion'.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,730
Location
here nc
You may want to reconsider your "facts" in light of Rodriguez v. United States where the US Supreme Court ruled that without reasonable suspicion the police could not extend a traffic stop in order for a search dog to arrive. And refusing a search does not rise to the level of a 'reasonable suspicion'.
last i heard the court's accepted total clock time for a 'stop' is 20 minutes, as you have pointed out, most are not aware of the time criteria.

ipse
 
Last edited:

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,826
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
last i heard the court's accepted total clock time for a 'stop' is 20 minutes, as you have pointed out, most are not aware of the time criteria.
Are you sure that's not the accepted time limit for an investigative detention to turn into a de facto arrest?

As long as a traffic stop isn't extended unnecessarily I don't think there's a time limit.
 
Last edited:

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
Are you sure that's not the accepted time limit for an investigative detention to turn into a de facto arrest?

As long as a traffic stop isn't extended unnecessarily I don't think there's a time limit.
According to my reading of the referenced court case, the traffic stop may last no longer than it takes the officer to accomplish the procedures attendant to the reason he or she made the stop. E.g., if stopped because they noticed a burnt out brake light, the officer may not extend the stop beyond the time it takes to check the driver's paperwork (DL, Registration, Insurance) and to write the "fix-it ticket."

According to the SCOTUS decision, once the "mission" -- the reason for the stop -- is accomplished, the officer may not extend the time of the stop for any further investigation.... UNLESS they have RAS to do so, such as an overpowering odor of illegal substances, an open alcohol container in plain sight, or any of myriad indications that the driver is breaking a law beyond that for which they were originally stopped. In the referenced case, the officer had no RAS and detained the driver until a dog could be brought to sniff the car. (His only "RAS" was that the driver refused a search, his right under the 4th Amendment.)
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,730
Location
here nc
Are you sure that's not the accepted time limit for an investigative detention to turn into a de facto arrest?

As long as a traffic stop isn't extended unnecessarily I don't think there's a time limit.
i am researching where i poked the info in my hiddy hole...

give me a moment...

ipse
 
Last edited:

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
See my post #2-- here

United States v Sharpe (1985)..

Police cannot turn a Terry stop into a de facto arrest..

Regards
CCJ
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
See my post #2-- here

United States v Sharpe (1985)..

Police cannot turn a Terry stop into a de facto arrest..

Regards
CCJ
You are simply and dangerously wrong. In order to effect a Terry Stop, an officer must have RAS that the person being stopped has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime. If the officer's RAS proves accurate, you damn well betcha that it will result in an arrest. I don't know where you got your law degree, but you ought to get your tuition refunded...
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
You are simply and dangerously wrong. In order to effect a Terry Stop, an officer must have RAS that the person being stopped has committed, is committing or is about to commit a crime. If the officer's RAS proves accurate, you damn well betcha that it will result in an arrest. I don't know where you got your law degree, but you ought to get your tuition refunded...
In the OP's case, the officers had no RAS to detain the citizen.. The mere presence of a legally carry firearm does not create RAS, therefore, any delay is " unreasonable".. per the 4th Amendment.. Therefore a de facto Terry stop cannot become a legal arrest. And any evidence found, will be inadmissible.

One cannot be detained or searched or seized for exercising a right.. One need not possess a law degree for such a basic law concept..

My .02
CCJ
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
In the OP's case, the officers had no RAS to detain the citizen.. The mere presence of a legally carry firearm does not create RAS, therefore, any delay is " unreasonable".. per the 4th Amendment.. Therefore a de facto Terry stop cannot become a legal arrest. And any evidence found, will be inadmissible.

One cannot be detained or searched or seized for exercising a right.. One need not possess a law degree for such a basic law concept..

My .02
CCJ
Nice deflection from your original comment that a Terry Stop cannot become an arrest...
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Are you sure that's not the accepted time limit for an investigative detention to turn into a de facto arrest?

As long as a traffic stop isn't extended unnecessarily I don't think there's a time limit.
The Supremes have rejected that a 20 minute stop is " Unreasonable". when the police have acted " diligently" and a suspect's actions contribute to the added delay about which he complains..

My concern here is, if suspect refuses a search of his vehicle (his right). Does exercising a right, equate to contributing to a delay.?. One should not be penalized for the exercise thereof.

Clearly a problem exist, if one is suspected of wrong doing for simply exercising a right..

It appears that folks LOSE rights when out operating an automobile.

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 
Top