Kids and guns...how young is too young to protect themselves?

[Sharpender]

Sorry, this is going to be a little off topic as far as open carry goes, but I've come to trust the members of this forum more than any other. I've also searched the forum without luck. Now, having properly buttered you up, here is my question.

I have an eleven (almost twelve) year old daughter who is sometimes home alone. We have a monitored home security system, a dog (black lab/chow mix), the usual door/window locks, etc... My daughter is responsible and intelligent. When is it appropriate for her to have access to a firearm for "at home and alone only" defense? Meaning, she has access to it only when she is home alone. I carry my 9 24/7, I have a 590 that is always at home, but is way too much for her to handle...so I'm thinking a G28. My personal belief is that once she is 100% comfortable, educated, and competent with it she's ready.

Am I insane?

 

[Tomas]

Only you know how mature and reliable she is (though you'll have to take off your daddy glasses).

If she if objectively mature enough to make the proper decisions, reliable enough to ALWAYS make them, and trained well enough to be competent, then I personally would say she is ready. (State or local laws may say otherwise...)

Only you can weigh all the factors, though. Your call.

 

[k.rollin]

I believe that children as old as your daughter ought to be knowledgeable and well versed in proper firearms safety and that they should be proficient in the operation, care and maintenance of any firearm that is owned by their parent/guardian and present in the home. I feel that as soon as they are able to, physically, ethically, and mentally, to confidently use a firearm in a self defense scenario, that they ought to have access to a weapon for such a situation.

This is just my opinion, but if you are going to leave your daughter alone with a gun for home/self defense, I would suggest a long gun over a pistol. You've said that the shotgun is too much for her, but an AR15 or pistol caliber carbine would probably be about right. It ain't my place to tell you how to run things though, so if you think a handgun is appropriate for her, then do it.

 

[MamaLiberty]

Training and good habits are the key. She needs a gun she can ALWAYS control, even under stress. The training needs to simulate stressful situations so you will know what sort of gun she can adequately control. Don't try to do this yourself unless you are experienced at teaching novices. Get some professional training for her.

And good luck.

 

[BigDave]

Personally I would not leave a 12 year old child unattended with a weapon for any reason.
Are you willing to accept all responsibility for their access when you are gone to include loss of life, be it hers or another's and all the emotional baggage that comes with it.

I strongly support the issue of introducing supervised firearms handling at an age they are willing to take part in.

If I was truly concerned that my 12 year old and their safety at home when I am not there I would be finding someone they could stay with during those times.

 

[MamaLiberty]

Well, Dave, what is the magic age at which you would allow her to be self responsible? The question of responsibility and liability depends on the person, not the chronological age. Will she suddenly be appropriate to stay home alone next year? When she's 18? What's the criteria? And who can know that better than her own parents?

I was responsible for the health and safety of other, younger children - home alone with them - from the time I was 8 and 9 years old. I didn't lose any of them either.

 

[amlevin]

This is kind of a tough question to answer. How mature, and capable of making difficult decisions in an emergency, is a 12 year old? Some are far more mature than people many times their age. Read some of the recent accounts of people using guns when they shouldn't. Other won't gain the necessary decision making abilities for several more years.

Science has fairly well determined that "teenagers" brains haven't fully developed and they tend to make their decisions more on emotional, or on a spur of the moment basis. In other words most teenager's act before they think anything out and consider consequences. This is why they are so heavily restricted when starting to drive. Probably the same thinking in keeping them "dry" until 21 (no alcohol).

Again, not everyone develops their ability to deal with situations at an equal rate. It is my opinion that a 12 year old is not ready to be left totally alone in any circumstance where they would even have to think about using a gun to defend themselves. It is fine to expose children this age to firearms, to give them the necessary training, to let them have the experience of shooting. This will prepare them for the day when "nature" finaly completes the wiring diagram for their brain. Any sooner and the potential for disaster is too great. The legal ramifications, both criminal and civil, should also be taken into consideration when thinking this out. IF a shooting should occur, rest assured that both prosecutor and civil attorney will be giving it the "great stink-eye" with thoughts of prosecution and lawsuit.

In closing let me say that I am of the opinion far too many children are left alone so that parents can pursue their own activities. I am also of the opinion that this is one of society's major problems today. Parents don't know what their kids are up to and as long as the house doesn't burn down or the police don't call to say they have "Junior" of "Missy" in custody, life is good. As parents we only get so much time to impart values into our kids lives. Those that are leaving them alone are missing far too much of this time and it will be gone soon enough.

Boy, that sure was a long way around to say "I don't think a 12yo is ready to be left alone, much less with a gun.

BTW: I was one of those who was left alone from time to time when young. My Dad had a heart attack when I was 9, had several more over the years and finally passed away from heart disease when I was 19. While my Mom was at the hospital, sometimes for several days at a time, I was responsible for myself, my two sisters, and brother, (all younger) as well as the farm animals we had. It was a rural environment and we had neighboring farms we could call on in an emergency. Compared to today, there was no crime in our area. The risks were far less than today.

 

[irish52084]

I'm with MamaLliberty on this one. If you feel she is responsible, capable and willing then she should have the tools to protect herself. This garbage of general age discrimination in the firearms world is ridiculous. I know kids who are younger than 12 that are far more responsible, intelligent and thoughtful than 99% of the adults I know. Your age has little to do with your personal responsibility, respect, intelligence or honor. I'm not saying give every 12 year old a gun, I'm just saying that every person is different and capable of different things.

There are very few things that can help a physically weaker person defend themselves from a determined larger, physically stronger opponent and a gun is one of them. A firearm is a great equalizer, and never let anyone tell you size or strength doesn't matter if you're trained to fight. That is total BS, size isn't everything, but it's a huge factor.

Kudos to the OP for even considering that your daughter may be responsible enough to have a firearm when home alone. You must have some idea that she is mature enough to handle the responsibility or you probably wouldn't be asking the question.

 

[BigDave]

Well, Dave, what is the magic age at which you would allow her to be self responsible? The question of responsibility and liability depends on the person, not the chronological age. Will she suddenly be appropriate to stay home alone next year? When she's 18? What's the criteria? And who can know that better than her own parents?

I was responsible for the health and safety of other, younger children - home alone with them - from the time I was 8 and 9 years old. I didn't lose any of them either.

MamaLiberty, I thought I was pretty clear in what I feel about this topic.

Personally I would not leave a 12 year old child unattended with a weapon for any reason.
Are you willing to accept all responsibility for their access when you are gone to include loss of life, be it hers or another's and all the emotional baggage that comes with it.

I strongly support the issue of introducing supervised firearms handling at an age they are willing to take part in.

If I was truly concerned that my 12 year old and their safety at home when I am not there I would be finding someone they could stay with during those times.

 

[Lovenox]

I believe you are compelled to make an honest assesment of your daughter's individual characteristics and make up in order to place a awful burden of life or death in her hands. First and foremost, if the situation can be avoided then perhaps that should be the primary route. But it doesn't seem feesible at this point.
Back in the frontier days had you asked this question your kin would have removed you from the family tree.

 

[oldkim]

Playing devils advocate

I would not leave her home with a firearm where the intent was her to have access of that firearm. Not at age 12.

If she had to use it she is not mature enough (heck - I would say many adults are not mature enough) to handle the consequences of killing someone (even if it's justified).

Also not to even mention the legal consequences for you as the parent...

There are many alternatives besides a firearm. You have several in place now. You can add drills (to hide) and call 911 and also non lethal alternatives (pepper spray), not answering the door - the real common sense stuff.

Please note I am not saying not to teach her - I have several young nephews and nieces and I have takent them out shooting.

Just ask yourself this... how long did it take you to be able to carry? To be willing to use a firearm to defend yourself and your love ones? ---- you are asking a 12 year old to do the same without all the experience you have gone through to get to where you are now...?

Take precaution. This is my advice to you but you do what you will with your family. You live by your actions and any consequences that follow.

Lastly, she is a minor and any actions she takes is on you. If she shoots the mailman it's your butt on line.

 

[killchain]

You could buy her some pepper spray.

Then, you know, teach her how to fire a particular firearm and then make it clear "here is where it is. Don't play with it."



http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.91.160

 

[DEROS72]

I took allthree of my daughters to the range with me at about 11 ,12.Taught them what firearms can do taught them to shoot,taught them safety etc.Now my oldest 27 keeps her own Bersa .380 and is quite proficient with it.When they were still young I did still keep firearms locked up although after many times at the range with dad they would not have messed with it if i did not lock them up.They learned on a Mini -14 back when they were younger.They thought it was cool. Now my oldest has a 16 month old son.She has to remember now to keep hers locked up out of his reach.Me living by myself always hae my weapon on ,or on the night stand ,my rifle next to the dresser.When my grandson comes over I will make sure they are put way out of reach where he can't get them.Although I do OC when I am with my grandson.Hopefully I'll teach him to shoot when he's old enough.HEck I got a .22 for 13 the birthday.Even brought it to school for show and tell.We could do that in Texas in those days.

 

[Lovenox]

"HEck I got a .22 for 13 the birthday.Even brought it to school for show and tell.We could do that in Texas in those days."

My civilian boss told me as a 14 y/o he was a working a ranch in south Texas and he use to open carry and took money to make deposits at the local bank. Well one day he walked in and some "new people" that didn't know him hit the floor because they thought they were about to be held up. The teller said, "Calm down folks, thats just Bobby bringing in the days reciepts." LOL

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

SHTF, a catastrophic event has occurred, and the state you live in has gone 3 days without food or water. The looting begins. You keep your family in there house where you have plenty of food and water.

As I said, people are beginning to go crazy and beginning to loot businesses and houses. One night a group of people show up to your door. They had word that you have food and water, and take my situation for instance, there are two women and four children living in the house...easy pickings, right? Wrong! All of my children have went target shooting with me on a regular basis, they know how to sight in something and fire. They have just as much a stake in survival as I do...do I arm them?--the two youngest are 9 and the two oldest are 13 and 11.

I would feel comfortable putting a firearm, that they can handle of course, into the hand of the older two. The younger two would be to terrified.

For me, the threshold would be 10 or 11. All lives in the house have a stake in survival, but really, when you start getting younger than ten, I think their size really is a liability when it comes to shooting firearms and reloading proficiently, IMO.

 

[BigDave]

An issue to consider here is a child's level of maturity to deal with the aftermath of killing someone or if they could, most adults have real issues of this and in my view why would I want to put my child in this position when that is my job not theirs.

 

[amzbrady]

Pepper spray, and some Self defense classes are where I would start. I was babysitting a toddler when I was 13, at 15 my friend and I would take his 22 rifles into the field and set up targets to shoot with no supervision. I have worked since I was 13. Depends on how mature the kid is. My son has a very calm and reasonable temperment. He doesnt get mad, or act out in anger and has always been mature, but not the mature I would expect from someone handling a firearm without supervision. I have taken him shooting and he is very safe when it comes to firearms. I still wouldnt leave one for him to have access to, I dont want the responsibility of his actions on my head. If he wants access to a firearm, he will have to get his own. Same with my daughter, When money prevails she will be reinrolled in a self defense course. She started one, but I could not afford for her to continue. Thats just me.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

I agree Dave. The question is: "Would I rather my child watch me blow a perps head off, or would I rather my child blow the perps head off." The psychological affects of shooting another human being are huge, even if you felt that is what you had to do. Children adapt to their environment much better than adults. They lack the depth of reasoning that adults do, and as a result they respond with a less informed moral judgment than an adult.

Children are capable of adapting to horrible conditions. Does that mean that they will not grow into adults that are disturbed by those experiences, NO. Those experiences will affect them greatly, just like they affect adults.

Children, especially if raised in a loving home, can be raised to be extremely resilient.

My children are very resilient, and they respect my partner and I, and our judgment.

Let's say something like that situation I described played out. Post-incident I would assure my children by reasoning with them, talking with them, that a core human experience is to survive. I would be in the best position to help them cultivate a healthy moral perspective of self-defense, and what they were forced to do in order to survive.

Really, when it comes down to it, IMO, love from parents, and the parents reasoning with their children is what plays the greatest role in raising emotionally healthy, compassionate children that value their life, and the lives of other around them, but also know where to draw the line if they are forced to choose between their life and the life of another human being that is perpetrating a crime against them.

I think parents try to shelter to many things from their children, then their children grow into adults, unaware of the world that they are walking out into. Dangerous situation IMO.

 

[amzbrady]

I agree Dave. The question is: "Would I rather my child watch me blow a perps head off, or would I rather my child blow the perps head off." The psychological affects of shooting another human being are huge, even if you felt that is what you had to do. Children adapt to their environment much better than adults. They lack the depth of reasoning that adults do, and as a result they respond with a less informed moral judgment than an adult.

Children are capable of adapting to horrible conditions. Does that mean that they will not grow into adults that are disturbed by those experiences, NO. Those experiences will affect them greatly, just like they affect adults.

Children, especially if raised in a loving home, can be raised to be extremely resilient.

My children are very resilient, and they respect my partner and I, and our judgment.

Let's say something like that situation I described played out. Post-incident I would assure my children by reasoning with them, talking with them, that a core human experience is to survive. I would be in the best position to help them cultivate a healthy moral perspective of self-defense, and what they were forced to do in order to survive.

Really, when it comes down to it, IMO, love from parents, and the parents reasoning with their children is what plays the greatest role in raising emotionally healthy, compassionate children that value their life, and the lives of other around them, but also know where to draw the line if they are forced to choose between their life and the life of another human being that is perpetrating a crime against them.

I think parents try to shelter to many things from their children, then their children grow into adults, unaware of the world that they are walking out into. Dangerous situation IMO.

Just wondering, does that mean that children brought up in a foster home will not be as resilient? Only those raised by loving parents who reason with them will be emotionally healthy, and compassionate? Or is it that those raised situations where the parents are not as loving will just be less stable than those by great parents. I do agree that children should be raised in homes showing them love and compassion. My wife and I's children have been brought up in a loving home. And our children were very much wanted, taking us 6 months of trying before Ang got pregnant the first time. I hav'nt given it much thought that my children were any more emotionally strong because they were raised by 2 parents who were wed in holy matrimony as our Father God meant for it to be. And through that commitment, We dont plan on parting until one of us passes on. I know children that have been through divorces where the parents have always fought, that seem just as stable as ours. I always figured that it was more based on the individual, not the circumstances. I may be wrong though.

 

[Beretta92FSLady]

Just wondering, does that mean that children brought up in a foster home will not be as resilient? Only those raised by loving parents who reason with them will be emotionally healthy, and compassionate? Or is it that those raised situations where the parents are not as loving will just be less stable than those by great parents. I do agree that children should be raised in homes showing them love and compassion. My wife and I's children have been brought up in a loving home. And our children were very much wanted, taking us 6 months of trying before Ang got pregnant the first time. I hav'nt given it much thought that my children were any more emotionally strong because they were raised by 2 parents who were wed in holy matrimony as our Father God meant for it to be. And through that commitment, We dont plan on parting until one of us passes on. I know children that have been through divorces where the parents have always fought, that seem just as stable as ours. I always figured that it was more based on the individual, not the circumstances. I may be wrong though.

I do not believe a child needs two loving parents to be emotionally healthy. I believe that a child that is raised in a loving environment with parents that reason with them have a better chance at being emotionally and intellectually healthy.

I am a lesbian that has a significant other of fourteen years, and we have four children. Our children are emotionally, and intellectually healthy. Did that have something to do with the healthy relationship they have watched between my partner and I, definitely, IMO.

Circumstances play a bigger role in how a person ends up in life than what some people want to acknowledge or believe. It is the circumstances the mold the individual. To say that a child who grows up with an abusive father, a mother that smokes crack, that gets a crappy education and lives in a crappy neighborhood, to say that it does not have a negative effect on the life of the child is either chosen ignorance or innate ignorance. there are children that are raised in those types of circumstances that rise up in the face of it and become successful, productive, healthy adults...but that is the exception to the rule. The vast majority do not rise up.