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Loveland, CO pays $15,000 to settle open carry lawsuit

opencarrybilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
164
Location
Loveland, Colorado, USA
Thanks, entartet17. I think that my lawyer, Nelson Boyle, is also a great guy.

Sorry I have been absent for so long from the forum. But, now I am free to talk about the case, so, please ask questions, and I will try to give some helpful answers :)

I have been here daily, reading and learning. And, I do appreciate all of you.
 

WCrawford

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
592
Location
Nashville, Tennessee, United States
Sorry I have been absent for so long from the forum. But, now I am free to talk about the case, so, please ask questions, and I will try to give some helpful answers :)

I have been here daily, reading and learning. And, I do appreciate all of you.

The burning question that must be asked (but doesn't have to be answered): How much did you ACTUALLY get?

Even if you don't answer my first question, what is the first gun you will buy with your settlement?
 

cscitney87

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,250
Location
Lakewood, Colorado, USA
"The motivation of the city of Loveland and the Police Department in settling the lawsuit for a nominal amount is to avoid the excessive cost of on-going litigation at the expense of Loveland's taxpaying residents," the city said in a statement.


Why did you settle?
 
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opencarrybilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
164
Location
Loveland, Colorado, USA
The burning question that must be asked (but doesn't have to be answered): How much did you ACTUALLY get?

Thanks to Nelson Boyle's skill and wisdom, I came out OK on the $$. They offerred $5,000 more for my silence. I declined.

Even if you don't answer my first question, what is the first gun you will buy with your settlement?

I don't plan to buy any more guns.
 

opencarrybilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
164
Location
Loveland, Colorado, USA
"The motivation of the city of Loveland and the Police Department in settling the lawsuit for a nominal amount is to avoid the excessive cost of on-going litigation at the expense of Loveland's taxpaying residents," the city said in a statement.


Why did you settle?

From: http://www.reporterherald.com/news_story.asp?ID=31593

“Miller’s Denver lawyer, Nelson Boyle, said the settlement was likewise the wisest move for his client because of the uncertainty of the trial’s outcome.”

“The problem was the economics of it, from the plaintiff’s side,” Boyle said. “You could easily spend $10,000 to $20,000, on the cheap side, for a case like this. Odds are that a jury is not going to make a substantial award in a case where there was no personal injury.”
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,854
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
That is great news. My sincere congatulations!

They wanted to "save the taxpayers money." 15 large may be nominal to them, but I'll take it! And if I was a taxpayer, I'd want some answers right now, or the resignation of the head stormtrooper. The cops acted properly..." after all, they only violated Bill's rights a little...$500 a minute for their 30 minute 'little' violation.
 
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mahkagari

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
1,186
Location
, ,
Thanks to Nelson Boyle's skill and wisdom, I came out OK on the $$. They offerred $5,000 more for my silence. I declined.

It's the principle more than the money, IMO. You made them feel it enough to get the principle and publicized the issue. We'll consider that $5k a donation to the cause. Thanks, Billy!

'“Our officers are going to have to make informed decisions, but quick decisions. They have to take the Second Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the public safety and their own safety into account right now, and make a decision right now.”

Miller was sitting on a lakeshore bench when officers approached him, took his gun and emptied it, then ran the serial number through a police database.

Hecker said police were correct in acting to empty ammunition from the gun to ensure public safety.

“They had the obligation to determine what his intent was, what his state of mind was,” Hecker said.'

BullbullbullBULLpuckey! Contacting him? Sure. A 70 year old man eating an apple and enjoying the sunset? Unusual sight, I'll grant you. I don't know if people in Loveland tend to hate apples and sunsets. You might want to just say hi. He's got a gun? Sure, look him over and see if his behavior indicates anything untoward. IF he gets beligerent (not saying Billy was), maybe you'll do an official contact. Is he acting like a lost mental patient? Yeah, MAYBE then you want to do due diligence and check his ID. Is he agressive? Sure, disarm him if it's in procedure and you have RAS.

But....the SERIAL number???? WHAT RAS did they have to check the SERIAL NUMBER??? They don't have RAS to "check everything out". Did they also take a vial of blood for BAC and make sure he wasn't wearing black market Calvin Klien chones?? Contact could MAYBE be justified. Disarming probably not. Running the serial number hangs them with harrassment and not looking for anything "suspicious" and instead looking for anything to give them an excuse to interrogate him further. I don't give a damn if they did it "too make sure he's okay". They didn't have RAS. Our system of law does not allow them to "make sure things are okay" preemptively.
 

ccwinstructor

Centurion
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
919
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
There is a poster on freerepublic.com who is casting aspersions on you

Sorry I have been absent for so long from the forum. But, now I am free to talk about the case, so, please ask questions, and I will try to give some helpful answers :)

I have been here daily, reading and learning. And, I do appreciate all of you.

I have been defending your actions, but if you could personally respond, it would be quite helpful. You obviously know more about the case than anyone else.

The discussion is taking place at this thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2690873/posts

You have to sign up to be able to post, but I find freerepublic to be a valuable resource, and I would love to have you defend yourself against the poster IrishCatholic.
 

opencarrybilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
164
Location
Loveland, Colorado, USA
That is great news. My sincere congatulations!

They wanted to "save the taxpayers money." 15 large may be nominal to them, but I'll take it! And if I was a taxpayer, I'd want some answers right now, or the resignation of the head stormtrooper. The cops acted properly..." after all, they only violated Bill's rights a little...$500 a minute for their 30 minute 'little' violation.

I hadn't thought of it that way. Makes me feel good. Thanks.
 

opencarrybilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
164
Location
Loveland, Colorado, USA
It's the principle more than the money, IMO. You made them feel it enough to get the principle and publicized the issue. We'll consider that $5k a donation to the cause. Thanks, Billy!

'“Our officers are going to have to make informed decisions, but quick decisions. They have to take the Second Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, the public safety and their own safety into account right now, and make a decision right now.”

Miller was sitting on a lakeshore bench when officers approached him, took his gun and emptied it, then ran the serial number through a police database.

Hecker said police were correct in acting to empty ammunition from the gun to ensure public safety.

“They had the obligation to determine what his intent was, what his state of mind was,” Hecker said.'

BullbullbullBULLpuckey! Contacting him? Sure. A 70 year old man eating an apple and enjoying the sunset? Unusual sight, I'll grant you. I don't know if people in Loveland tend to hate apples and sunsets. You might want to just say hi. He's got a gun? Sure, look him over and see if his behavior indicates anything untoward. IF he gets beligerent (not saying Billy was), maybe you'll do an official contact. Is he acting like a lost mental patient? Yeah, MAYBE then you want to do due diligence and check his ID. Is he agressive? Sure, disarm him if it's in procedure and you have RAS.

But....the SERIAL number???? WHAT RAS did they have to check the SERIAL NUMBER??? They don't have RAS to "check everything out". Did they also take a vial of blood for BAC and make sure he wasn't wearing black market Calvin Klien chones?? Contact could MAYBE be justified. Disarming probably not. Running the serial number hangs them with harrassment and not looking for anything "suspicious" and instead looking for anything to give them an excuse to interrogate him further. I don't give a damn if they did it "too make sure he's okay". They didn't have RAS. Our system of law does not allow them to "make sure things are okay" preemptively.

You are SO "right on" - as we used to say. I am honored to know you.
 

opencarrybilly

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
164
Location
Loveland, Colorado, USA
I have been defending your actions, but if you could personally respond, it would be quite helpful. You obviously know more about the case than anyone else.

The discussion is taking place at this thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2690873/posts

You have to sign up to be able to post, but I find freerepublic to be a valuable resource, and I would love to have you defend yourself against the poster IrishCatholic.

Yesterday, I read the forum you suggested and have done a lot of thinking about it. My conclusion is that I will decline, at this time, to engage in defending my actions. Otheers on that forum have a good job of answering the poster. And, from what I have been reading on this forum and in the newspaper, many people think think that Nelson and I did well in this case. Surprisingly, some even think that I am a "great guy." I don't think I need any defense.

If you and your friends on this and other forums want to work toward similar cases coming out better in future, may I suggest that you look into the process - check on restrictions and obsticles that make pursuit of cases cost prohibitive and excessively time consuming for most ordinary people. Have a close look at court proceedures. Closely examing police training in your jurisdiction. Dig deep. Speek loud:)

Thanks. And, I'm glad you're engaged in this discussion.

Best wishes.
 
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MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,385
Location
in front of my computer, WI
Wow... wish your case had settled before mine; I would have gotten more from the city that harassed me, & I went through more!

Good for you, though. That $5K extra would have been tempting. Telling the truth is more important.

The officers briefly took the gun for their safety and those in the park, the city stated.
HAH!
When they started handling an unfamiliar pistol they made the situation MORE dangerous.
It was perfectly safe sitting undisturbed in its holster.
And since they gave it back, obviously he wasn't a danger... and hadn't been, so they had no reason to take it in the first place.

Substitute "car" or "religious object" for "gun" and see how far that'd fly.
Do they randomly stop people driving cars there, just to make sure they're licensed?
Do they randomly stop people out & about with children, just to make sure they're not registered sex offenders?
 

ccwinstructor

Centurion
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
919
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
Thanks for looking at freerepublic

Yesterday, I read the forum you suggested and have done a lot of thinking about it. My conclusion is that I will decline, at this time, to engage in defending my actions. Otheers on that forum have a good job of answering the poster. And, from what I have been reading on this forum and in the newspaper, many people think think that Nelson and I did well in this case. Surprisingly, some even think that I am a "great guy." I don't think I need any defense.

If you and your friends on this and other forums want to work toward similar cases coming out better in future, may I suggest that you look into the process - check on restrictions and obsticles that make pursuit of cases cost prohibitive and excessively time consuming for most ordinary people. Have a close look at court proceedures. Closely examing police training in your jurisdiction. Dig deep. Speek loud:)

Thanks. And, I'm glad you're engaged in this discussion.

Best wishes.

Is there a source that I can use on freerepublic to show that you refused 5K to buy your silence? It is a powerful argument against those who claim that you did it for the money.
 

mahkagari

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
1,186
Location
, ,
Is there a source that I can use on freerepublic to show that you refused 5K to buy your silence? It is a powerful argument against those who claim that you did it for the money.

Bah. ******* in the wind. Remember the rule of thirds. A third of the people will agree with you. A third will never agree no matter what you say. The middle can be swayed. The middle's already made up their mind by now. Surely you have more things to do than divide up the middle third of the middle third. What will you get if you convince them? What will you lose if you don't? I'm sure there are better places to exert energy in the 2A fight than convincing fellow 2A'ers of the motivation of one man in a 67,000 person Colorado mountain town.

Thought occurs to me though, running the serial number on a legally carried weapon is not the same as running the plates on a car. The plates are a license. Get it, "license" plates? He didn't need a license so his "license" checked out. He wasn't forbidden from carrying based on his ID that would say he was a felon. Running the serial is more akin to the cop pulling you over in a routine traffic stop and saying, "I don't believe your registration, pop your hood and wait until I can get a mechanic here to inspect the VINs on your car." Additionally, there is ZERO information that can be gotten from running the serial number except the off chance that it was stolen AND the rightful owner recorded the serial number.

I'll end the rant there before going into how that database wouldn't be accessible to "running" it, much less checking it for resale. Yep, that's right, for all the hooplah a huge percentage of stolen guns are resold despite being "run" at POS.
 
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mahkagari

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Messages
1,186
Location
, ,
Bah. ******* in the wind.

Really? I can't say *******? "*******"? I mean, *******? Even in an oldtimey phrase like "******* in the wind"? I tried to think of something else, like spit in the air it lands in your face, or **** up a rope, or even talking to a brick wall. Nothing worked like ******* in the wind. Surely in such a context the word ******* is warranted for 1A? Come, on. Really? *******! *******! *******! *******! Nyah, nyah, nyah *******! *******! *******! Said it again! Nee! Nee! I'll say that too! Call me a ruffian if you will but I'll say "nee" to old women at will! Oh, that one's not censored, huh? NEE! NEE! Icky-Icky-Icky-Icky-Kapang-Zoop-Boing! What are you going to DO about i-
 
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