• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Man Wrestles Gun Away from Burglar. Gets Charged with Attempted Murder

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Turns out our northern neighbors are far more likely to call it "back bacon" than "Canadian bacon."

It is beneficial to be aware of these types of accounts from our Canadian, English, and Australian cousins because they serve to remind us how bad things can get if we don't put in the work, the eternal vigilance that is the price of liberty.

They are also beneficial to have in our mental arsenal when debating the antis or even educating the fence sitters. "Well Canada and England have common sense gun laws...."

"Really? Do you realize that those nations charge homeowners with criminal offenses simply for defending themselves against violent home invaders?..."
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
4,503
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
But our Canadian, English, and Australian cousins don't have the constitution that we have. We kicked out England. Canada and Australia are still tied to the apron strings of England.
 
Last edited:

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
All it takes is a vote of the people of Canada, Great Briton, and Australia to change their fortunes. They continue to not desire a change that restores individual liberty.
And if enough people here ever vote the wrong way, we can end up in the same place. The 2nd amendment could be repealed just as the 18th amendment was repealed or the way States lost the ability for the legislature to elect federal Senators.

There are good and decent liberty minded people in those nations whose rights are being oppressed by the majority. Just as our RKBA could be oppressed by a sufficient super-majority here. Just as many of our other rights are currently being oppressed by simple majorities.

Arrogance and lack of empathy are both rather ugly and immature traits.

********************************
 
Last edited by a moderator:

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,817
Location
White Oak Plantation
And if enough people here ever vote the wrong way, we can end up in the same place. The 2nd amendment could be repealed just as the 18th amendment was repealed or the way States lost the ability for the legislature to elect federal Senators.

There are good and decent liberty minded people in those nations whose rights are being oppressed by the majority. Just as our RKBA could be oppressed by a sufficient super-majority here. Just as many of our other rights are currently being oppressed by simple majorities.

Arrogance and lack of empathy are both rather ugly and immature traits.

********************************
True, the process exists. We shall see if Canadians are as appalled as I am at the government's actions regarding the home owner defending himself.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
True, the process exists. We shall see if Canadians are as appalled as I am at the government's actions regarding the home owner defending himself.
"Canadians" are no more a single entity than are "Virginians".

Some will doubtless be appalled. Others, perhaps the majority, will respond as perhaps the majority of big city liberals might. "Well, this particular incident might be unfortunate. But violence is the not the answer and we need to send a message......"

The majority is ruling in the UK and former Commonwealth nations. This should serve as a warning to each of us to make sure we are doing our part to keep the majority on our side here. It is not a reason to revel in the problems of an individual who may well be in the oppressed minority.

Now, when some outspoken anti-self-defense politician or activist gets burned by laws he has long supported, then it is perfectly acceptable to pile on and enjoy some schadenfreude.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,817
Location
White Oak Plantation
"Canadians" are no more a single entity than are "Virginians". ...
True.

The Maritimes are not Canada, if you ask a Maratimer, and they are not Newfs. If you ask a Newf he is not French nor Canadian.

Westies, Vancouver (Hancouver) if your from Halifax, are not Canadians, they are satellite, a bedroom q-munity of Seattle.

Canada has their flyover country too.

Montreal? Goes without saying and they do not speak french according to a friend of mine from France.

Every one of them are Canadians and have permitted, for what ever reason, themselves to be place in a position where they could be this poor fella and they are in no hurry to change this.

Maybe it has to do with trust in government. Alan Voth, a firearms expert formerly with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, said after the shooting that “Canadians have the mentality that the government will protect us – and we’re more likely to look to them for [our] safety. Americans take more responsibility for their own security.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/10/23/why-canadas-gun-culture-is-different-and-why-its-shootings-shock-america/?utm_term=.aa33c64b5f18
Self reliance and rugged individualism is regulated in Canada.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,817
Location
White Oak Plantation
... Self reliance and rugged individualism is regulated in Canada.
Sorry, left this one in a Notepad file.

It’s reasonable to maintain strict rules surrounding ownership and transportation of firearms, but people must realize gun owners have already passed safety courses, been vetted by law enforcement, and are subjected to almost daily police checks.

http://globalnews.ca/news/3444284/commentary-canadas-gun-laws-arent-saving-lives-theyre-just-making-them-more-complicated/
Not, reasonable rules, but reasonable to have strict rules. If this is the majority view in Canada, and I believe it is from my direct experiences in Canada, the burden remains on the Canadian citizenry to vote for a change to prevent another poor fella from being tossed in the clink for defending his own life and home from armed thugs.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,817
Location
White Oak Plantation
Citizen’s Arrest and Self-defence Act S.C. 2012, c. 9 Assented to 2012-06-28

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (citizen’s arrest and the defences of property and persons)
SUMMARY: This enactment amends the Criminal Code to enable a person who owns or has lawful possession of property, or persons authorized by them, to arrest within a reasonable time a person whom they find committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property. It also amends the Criminal Code to simplify the provisions relating to the defences of property and persons.

Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate and House of Commons of Canada, enacts as follows:
SHORT TITLE
Marginal note:Short title

1. This Act may be cited as the Citizen’s Arrest and Self-defence Act.
R.S., c. C-46CRIMINAL CODE
Marginal note:1992, c. 1, s. 60 (Sch. I, s. 20)(F)

2. Sections 34 to 42 of the Criminal Code are replaced by the following:
Marginal note:Defence — use or threat of force

34. (1) A person is not guilty of an offence if
...
(2) In determining whether the act committed is reasonable in the circumstances, the court shall consider the relevant circumstances of the person, the other parties and the act, including, but not limited to, the following factors:
(a) the nature of the force or threat;
(b) the extent to which the use of force was imminent and whether there were other means available to respond to the potential use of force;
(c) the person’s role in the incident;
(d) whether any party to the incident used or threatened to use a weapon;
(e) the size, age, gender and physical capabilities of the parties to the incident;
(f) the nature, duration and history of any relationship between the parties to the incident, including any prior use or threat of force and the nature of that force or threat;
(f.1) any history of interaction or communication between the parties to the incident;
(g) the nature and proportionality of the person’s response to the use or threat of force; and
(h) whether the act committed was in response to a use or threat of force that the person knew was lawful.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/annualstatutes/2012_9/FullText.html
Codified into law that the crime in and of itself by the criminal is not enough. Canadians permitted this. This amended language is an improvement in the law.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/01/15/when-victims-become-criminals
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
whether in Canada or here in the States, have you ever heard the saying, " dead men tell no tales"..
If they enter your home alive, do not allow them to leave alive... It may seem cruel, it may seem criminal.

My .02
CCJ
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
11,817
Location
White Oak Plantation
whether in Canada or here in the States, have you ever heard the saying, " dead men tell no tales"..
If they enter your home alive, do not allow them to leave alive... It may seem cruel, it may seem criminal.

My .02
CCJ
Then murder (premeditated?) would have been the most serious charge.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,092
Location
northern wis
whether in Canada or here in the States, have you ever heard the saying, " dead men tell no tales"..
If they enter your home alive, do not allow them to leave alive... It may seem cruel, it may seem criminal.

My .02
CCJ

As seen before CCJ has always says things.

One has to decide for oneself if one is going to follow such advice.

The wise ones have already made up their minds what to do with his advice.
 

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
whether in Canada or here in the States, have you ever heard the saying, " dead men tell no tales"..
If they enter your home alive, do not allow them to leave alive... It may seem cruel, it may seem criminal.
Is this David McBeth under another user name? Why is this kind of legally dangerous, morally offensive material permitted to remain on this once respectable forum? Has the desire for revenue really overcome all sense of propriety on the part of our hosts? What kind of mentally deranged agent-provocateur do we have here?

With modern forensics, dead men tell all kinds of tales. And depending on the laws of the State or nation where one is located, the conditions under which one may legally end the life of another person may be fairly restrictive even inside one's home.

I will defend my life and limb and those of my loved ones'. The use of deadly force is my last option, not my first. It is not something I desire to do, not something I will brag about on public forums.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
I gave my opinion on the issue.. If someone invades your home chances are they are not there to play pinnacle. If they no longer breath they cannot sue you nor testify against you, nor come back and attempt to harm your family..

I would take my chances with a jury of homeowners..

Naturally if they are outside and retreating one need not apply deadly force.. However if the threat is eminent in your home, stopping the threat is paramount to the safety of yourself and family..

What is the purpose of having a weapon in your home? I was taught shot to kill, my marksman skills are not good enough for anything else..

If my opinion on the topic offends anyone, so be it... However there is truth in my words...

Lets all hope we are never faced with making a life and death decision..

My .02
CCJ
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Is this David McBeth under another user name? Why is this kind of legally dangerous, morally offensive material permitted to remain on this once respectable forum? Has the desire for revenue really overcome all sense of propriety on the part of our hosts? What kind of mentally deranged agent-provocateur do we have here?

With modern forensics, dead men tell all kinds of tales. And depending on the laws of the State or nation where one is located, the conditions under which one may legally end the life of another person may be fairly restrictive even inside one's home.

I will defend my life and limb and those of my loved ones'. The use of deadly force is my last option, not my first. It is not something I desire to do, not something I will brag about on public forums.
Charles, I assume you would invite the predator home invader in for some tea and preach to him/her on the danger of their actions.

We here discuss self defense and protection of self and family everyday.. Are said discussions morally offensive? If yes, I suggest you find another site to espouse you're holier-than- thou attitude...

We should take a poll on what folks here would do, if some predator home invader came a calling.
i practice the golden rule but I also protect my family against all predators foreign or DOMESTIC..

My .02
CCJ
 

gutshot II

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
555
Location
Central Ky.
Is this David McBeth under another user name? Why is this kind of legally dangerous, morally offensive material permitted to remain on this once respectable forum? Has the desire for revenue really overcome all sense of propriety on the part of our hosts? What kind of mentally deranged agent-provocateur do we have here?

With modern forensics, dead men tell all kinds of tales. And depending on the laws of the State or nation where one is located, the conditions under which one may legally end the life of another person may be fairly restrictive even inside one's home.

I will defend my life and limb and those of my loved ones'. The use of deadly force is my last option, not my first. It is not something I desire to do, not something I will brag about on public forums.
Trolls like both David Macbeth and countryclubjoe respond to the reactions of others to their posts. If no one responds, they have no fodder to feed on. By responding to these people, you enable them to continue to ruin what remains of OCDO(not very much). Once that is done, they will leave and start to destroy some other decent forum. Do you expect to have someone like counrtyclubjoe suddenly become rational and start posting something worth reading? Do you expect him to declare that you have been right all along and that he has been wrong? Do you think he will "see the light" or have a "Damascus moment" because of some great insight that you have given him or do you think he will continue to be the same as he has always been? They have nothing useful to contribute. Exclude them from any discussion that you are involved in. Just ignore them and they will go away, like all trolls. Let them discuss things with themselves, alone. The "ignore" button is useful, but not necessary. Just don't respond to anything a troll posts.
 
Last edited:

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Trolls like both David Macbeth and countryclubjoe respond to the reactions of others to their posts. ....
I think there is great wisdom in this gutshot. And I thank you for the gentle reminder. But I also think there are posts that need to be called out lest anyone perusing what little is left of the forum think that trolls like McBeth/countryclubjoe actually represent the culture of decent, law-abiding gun owners. Proper moderation would preclude any need to respond at all. But lacking that for whatever reasons may be...

Of course, on-going engagement of trollish posts is always going to be a loser.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
I am a troll for speaking my mind.. What prey tell would you Gutshot II and you Charles do in the event some predator violated the sanctity of your home? Please advise us of the proper course of action..

I can only assume Gutshot II would advise said predator of his states gun laws and Charles , you would invite him/her to some Mormons only carnival making exceptions for home invaders.. if I am wrong in my assessments of both your actions, prey tell to us all, your course of action.

Please oh merciful ones, please instruct us on how to protect our home and family..

My .02
CCJ
 
Top