My ONLY negative OC experience in 10+ years...

[Virginian683]

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caltain wrote:

All that said, I know that he acted with the best of intentions to proctect his family and the public from a perceived threat. He just didn't do it the right way.

Now thats where I have to differ with you. This had nothing to do at all with concern for public safety. It had to do with this ass feeling he is LE (and FBI at that) and therefore a superior class of person with superior rights. How dare you as a mere serf carry a weapon? That's only for special people like him.

I have to admit you showed unbelieveable forebearance toward this ass. I think I would have acted as you did until the point he announced he was FBI and then refused to show his ID. I wouldn't have believed him at that point. I would be thinking this guy is mentally unbalanced and I'm afraid at that point I would have pepper sprayed the PoS. God knows how that would have ended. I am a normally quite patient but this guy was assaulting you. I don't open carry often simply because I don't trust the kind of people around me where I live. Standing in line is one of the most vulnerable situations when OCing in my opinion. I'm glad you came through it with such a good outcome.

You're an honest man and you assume honesty in others....don't. Life has taught me you don't trust people until they prove repeatedly their honest intentions. I too automatically assume the best in people and I have to constantly remind myself not too. Otherwise you can and will be taken advantage of.

 

[ShufflnAlong]

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Not takeing one side or the other. But a transcript should be available of most phone calls and conversation from a federal auth. such as the fbi by the caller.. Just a suggestion so this topic can be put to bed.

 

[Neplusultra]

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ShufflnAlong wrote:

Not takeing one side or the other. But a transcript should be available of most phone calls and conversation from a federal auth. such as the fbi by the caller.. Just a suggestion so this topic can be put to bed.

Being that I'm about to go to bed this sounds like a good suggestion to determine who is speaking the truth. Being also that we haven't heard from Jack I'm starting to wonder but this would really put a concrete point of evidence to it. Edit: Either way....

 

[caltain]

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Thanks for the support, folks. It means a lot. I had skimmed some of Jack's posts while not being able to sleep. He's at least a man of his convictions, and determined to see what he believes come to pass. I can admire that if not his methods or language. Actually, from what I could tell, I may actually hold the record for getting his hackles in the air. One more for the trophy case, I guess.

I'm not niave about the situation, the need on occasion to have the independent third witness of a recorder, or the need to remain vigilant in my daily life. After all, when would adversity happen, if not in your daily life?

I have been blessed/cursed with an ability to see both sides of an issue. It really does help to put things in the past, though it can be elusive, in the moment. Contrary to what I have read of Jack's opinion of LEOs, I think that their motivations are generally to do good works. I HAVE been the victim of LEOs in ways that would make getting struck by lightning so common by comparison that you could mark your fridge calendar and schedule the sick leave in advance. ;-) that said, I still find that I like and get along with fine, nearly every cop I meet.

As hard as it may be to believe, this agent's motivations were purely what we all would like them to be. It was his actions that were lacking grace. As I think I posted before, the agent was from New York. In his daily personal and professional experience, anyone with a gun and without a badge likely means to do the public harm. He's conditioned to that mindset as the norm. It has probably saved his life at some point, or even at several. Seen that way, he's not a bad guy, just an idiot in this case.

I have learned a lot about adversarial encounters in my life. I think that my experience served me well in this encounter. If I may be so bold, let me offer to you what I've learned over the years.

When you find that you are at odds with someone, whether LEO, family, stranger, friend or sales person:
1. Remain calm.
2. State your position clearly.
3. Have your facts straight.
4. Don't generalize or exagerate. "You always" & "you never" are almost always inaccurate, and usually serve only to make things worse.
5. Don't assign people to a group, even if they themselves do. "LEOs are...", "men are...", etc. are the things to avoid here. It seems like these are the same as generalizing, but the point here is that your adversary may not think of himself as defined by the group you stuck him in. Men aren't anything as a group except male. LEOs aren't anything other than members of law enforcement. Don't apply other attributes to the whole group.
6. YOU should never escalate. Your adversary will escalate tempers, mood, tone, volume, level of violence, etc. more than enough for you both, and will usually do his case harm in the process.
7. Meet force with equal counter force. Don't shove when he leans. Step away or turn your strong side away. Don't swing when he swings. Block or duck. Never introduce lethal methods unless they are already introduced by your adversary.
8. Pay attention to your adversary when he speaks. Until he thinks you have heard what he is saying, he won't give ground.
9. Think before you speak or act. Be aware of other possible interpretations than what you intended.
10. Always look for a way to de-escalate the situation. Often, though, this may involve removing yourself, or recognizing that stalemate or losing are not the goal. You may need to cooperate now to give yourself the best chance of ultimately winning the confrontation.

That's it for now, folks. Thanks again for the support.
Dan

 

[BB62]

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BB62 wrote:

jack wrote:

This sounds like bullshit to me, I don't believe an FBI agent would do such an ignorant thing. First of all the Northern Virginia area has it's own field office, HQ in Washington is mainly an administrative office...

I'm calling a friend that lives in Chantilly, Vathat is a special agent assigned to the Northern Virginia office. We will find out real quick if there is or ever was an agent Leaner.

I'm betting on NO being the answer. The FBI takes bogus claims with respect to agent conduct very seriously.

Well, if YOU have the contacts you purport to have, and YOU are to be trusted, then you will either deserve thanks for outing a liar, or you will deserve to be flogged for the forceful and damning way you have addressed the OP.

This should be interesting...

YO, JACK !

How about an update on your contact withyour special agent friend?

 

[jack]

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There is no agent Lerner in the Northern Virginia field office, Washington Dc field office, Richmond Va. field office,or Baltimore Md field office. Never has been either.

The original poster undated his post with the admission that hemade up the name to protect theagents identity. Frankly I don't believe that. He found out someone was going to check and did a bit of damage control.

Think about it. If you were going to withhold thename of a agent, police officer etc. that did something crazy like this, would you make up a fake name for the agent or wouldyou post referring to him as an agent and live his name out of it. Nearly every case of LEO confrontation over open carry that I have read on here included the offending officers actual name. Somehave posted recordings of the stop. This guy posted with an imaginary agent'sname, for an imaginary story.I know therearea fewreallystupid people on here, but everyone should be able to see through this bogus, invented claim. FBI agents are educated and normally pretty sharpfolks. They don't enforce State lawor local ordinances, only federal crimes. An agent wouldn't have done what was claimed. The post was a invented story. Anyone that actually believes it is an idiot.

Enough legitimate LEO encounters occur that can be related on this board without starting up a fiction section.

I lived in Fairfax County for over 40 years before retiring (partially anyway). I open carried all over Northern Virginia for years and never hadbut two encounters with local police. I have friends and past co-workerswith the FBI, BATFE, US Marshals and IRS criminal enforcement Division. Believe me they don't run around assaultingcitizens for open carry. Many of them actually encourage it. We don't need to invent any anti-carry bad guys, there already are enough. Posting libelous claims about fictional agents on this board is extraordinary bad PR for this board. It makes open carry folks look like a bunch of dangerous wackos. Many members of the law enforcement community, and retired LEOs visit this site often. If you make up crazy stories, it might get checked out and you may be confronted on this very board.

Maybe everyone should agree not to post after drinking more thanthree beers or two glasses of wine.

 

[gkp200]

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jack wrote:

I'm calling a friend that lives in Chantilly, Vathat is a special agent assigned to the Northern Virginia office. We will find out real quick if there is or ever was an agent Leaner.

I'm betting on NO being the answer. The FBI takes bogus claims with respect to agent conduct very seriously.

Well Jack what was the outcome of this? You claim to have friends that will clear this up yet I don't see what you learned. You were very hostile to someone who posted their experience. You should either appologize or provide proof his story is not true.

 

[AbNo]

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Um, GKP, did you not read Jack's post right before yours?

 

[gkp200]

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Yes, I read his post. The OP stated the agent was from the NY office. Agent Leaner was also an obvious name made up to reflect his actions and not a real name. Jack was supposed to use his connection to disprove this story. He failed to do so. Therefore, he should appologize or discredit this story.

 

[KBCraig]

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jack wrote:

There is no agent Lerner in the Northern Virginia field office, Washington Dc field office, Richmond Va. field office,or Baltimore Md field office. Never has been either.

Nice job on "disproving" something that was never claimed.

The OP said the agent was visiting from NY, not NoVa, DC, Richmond, or Baltimore.

The name was not "Lerner", it was "Leaner", an obvious reference to "he leaned up against me" as told by the OP. His real name was never given.

Now that your poor comprehension of the issue has been corrected, I expect you'll be ringing your contacts up right away and setting us all straight on the "real story".

 

[longwatch]

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Stop Feeding the Troll!!!

 

[Sheriff]

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KBCraig wrote:

The name was not "Lerner", it was "Leaner", an obvious reference to "he leaned up against me" as told by the OP. His real name was never given.

Correct you are. I had not noticed how everybody else was spelling the name.

I don't have a bit of trouble believing this tale is true.

It sounds exactly like something a rookie FBI agent with a badge and gun would do. :lol:

 

[iCeMaN]

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This is becoming a rather interesting thread....

 

[jack]

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Original poster : What year did this event that you claim occurred happen ?
What was theactual name of the agent.

The SAC of the New York office is Mark Mershon

Due to the size of the office isalso the assistant director of the FBI

You have one last chance to come clean on this before aletter is sent to SAC Mershon

YOU HAVE 48 hours and the letter is in the mail

If it occurred, why not reveal the agents true identity ?

Hint: because it's bullshit and never happened.

 

[Sheriff]

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Why do you have to wait 48 hours, Jack? Do it now. :lol:

 

[deepdiver]

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*shrug* When he referred to the agent as Agent Leaner I immediately understood it was a made up name based on his telling.

 

[ProShooter]

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deepdiver wrote:

*shrug* When he referred to the agent as Agent Leaner I immediately understood it was a made up name based on his telling.

ditto here

 

[caltain]

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Jackster:

OP here. I'm not going to resort to name calling, as you have, because the term "moron" would do you an injustice. I will however type slowly. I kindly replied to your last communique. I recieved no reply. Therefore, let me sum up my thoughts on the subject, again. And yes, this one might get long, too.

First, let's address the issue of libel. The only person who has committed libel here is you. You have stated in your posts that I am "an idiot" and "a liar". These statements were made unjustifiably, and without basis in fact or provocation. They are patently defamatory. According to well established court holdings, and as I am a private citizen, you have no First Amendment right to publish any such statements. They are clearly a violation of North Carolina and Virginia law. In the future, remember that your right to swing your arm ends at my nose.

Second, as I indicated in a previous post, I have already given all the facts that I am going to. Do with them what you will. You have every right to pursue any investigation regarding the matter that you like. That said, your last post, which indicated a deadline for complying to your demands under pain of contacting the FBI borders on extortion and easily qualifies for harrassment. I have not been provided with the details and particulars of your communications to the FBI. I can only assume from your conduct, thus far, that they have not been of the nature of pure inquiry regarding the existance of Agent Leaner/Learner, and may have included your personal assessment of my character. Pursue your inquiry as far as you like, but tread carefully, and don't EVER tell me I have a deadline to comply with you.

Third, we have all read plenty of encounter reports on this board. Any sane person, if making up a story, would have shot a good bit closer to the group, rather than intentionally landing a flier this far out. I freely admit that it's pretty much unbelievable. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen. My cite here is the Bible. 'Nuff said. Your opinion is that I made the whole thing up. You are entitled to your opinion, and to voice that opinion. Your belief that it's false, however,doesn't change my past. Frankly, people that voice their opinions and beliefs as fact are the largest problem that 2A supporters face in public forums like this board and the press.

As always, I thank you for your support of the 2A in your area, just as I thank the rest of this board's members for the same. I hope that the net effect is positive for us all. I don't have a problem with you, or your search for the truth, just your methodology...

XOXO

Dan

 

[deepdiver]

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caltain wrote:

I'm not going to resort to name calling, as you have, because the term "moron" would do you an injustice. I will however type slowly.

:lol: I'm have no intention of getting in the middle of all this, however, this was just plain funny. What's the line, "That's funny - I don't care who you are."

If these were my two closest friends arguing I would be laughing just as hard.

 

[ProShooter]

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caltain wrote:

I will however type slowly.

I'm not joining the fray either, but that is the line of the day!

Reminds me of the old joke/story that goes "I'm writing this letter to you slowly 'cause I know you dont read so good"