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ND at gun show in Sandy

utbagpiper

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KSL news reported an ND at the gun show held in Sandy on Saturday.

Fair use excerpt:

The buyer was interested in a Colt .45 handgun, Carriger said. The seller had all of his weapons zip tied and the potential buyer asked him to cut the zip tie so he could further examine the gun.

"He manipulated the slide, not realizing there was a magazine in the gun. After manipulating the slide, he did notice the magazine and hit the release and took it out, unknowing that he racked a round into the chamber. He then pointed the gun down at the floor and pulled the trigger," Carriger said.

One shot fired, striking the concrete floor.

Concrete bits from the floor hit two teenage boys who apparently did not require medical attention.



No charges are expected in this case. But the seller and buyer should both be banned by the operator of the gun show from all future events, IMO.

Charles
 
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davidmcbeth

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Buyer did good ... pointing it where people are not.

Seller forgot to unload it looks like.

No harm, no foul...life goes on.

Continuing carry !
 

MAC702

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...Seller should never have consented to cut off the zip tie; buyer should not have asked. Buyer should have been certain the gun was clear before handling. ...

... But the seller and buyer should both be banned by the operator of the gun show from all future events, IMO.
These are my only disagreements. Zip-ties are for convenience, not for true safety. If a serious buyer wants to check it out without a zip-tie, he should be able to. It affects feel and function. It obviously also does not guarantee the firearm is not loaded. Makes me wonder through what portion of the gun was this zip-tie. I assumed a zip-tied gun is supposed to have the zip-tie going through a partially open action.

Seller bears the ultimate responsibility in this negligent discharge. It is unfathomable that he did not know the firearm was loaded, and that he allowed it to be so on the table, including a gun that was zip-tied. He is expected to know all the safety rules. The buyer may have been truly ignorant of safety rules, as this is common in a country that refuses to allow basic firearms safety training in practically all public schools. One of these days an enterprising attorney is going to start filing class action lawsuits where he can show schools have specifically refused this training to people who grew up to have such accidents.

I can see banning the seller from returning, but I'm willing to determine if the buyer is now educated, and I would be comfortable thinking he'd be among the least likely people on the planet to experience such a negligence in the future.
 
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utbagpiper

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These are my only disagreements. Zip-ties are for convenience, not for true safety. If a serious buyer wants to check it out without a zip-tie, he should be able to. It affects feel and function. It obviously also does not guarantee the firearm is not loaded. Makes me wonder through what portion of the gun was this zip-tie. I assumed a zip-tied gun is supposed to have the zip-tie going through a partially open action.

Seller bears the ultimate responsibility in this negligent discharge. It is unfathomable that he did not know the firearm was loaded, and that he allowed it to be so on the table, including a gun that was zip-tied. He is expected to know all the safety rules. The buyer may have been truly ignorant of safety rules...
From the sound of it, the zip tie must have been going through the barrel and chamber, rather than down the magazine well.

I will disagree with your on the seller bearing responsibility for the ND. The gun was not defective. It worked perfectly. The buyer racked the slide and pulled the trigger. If he doesn't know basic safety, he shouldn't handle a gun. Anyone handling a gun has the responsibility to do so safely. That includes verify the firearm is cleared before handing it as though it were unloaded.

If an adult hands a gun to a child, impaired adult, or mental defect, then the functioning adult bears responsibility. If a mature, mentally competent adult picks up a gun (or gets behind the wheel of a car) and causes injury or property damage because of his own negligence, that is on him. Especially if he has represented himself as being competent.

Seller made a huge mistake having ammo near, much less in the firearm being shown and offered for sale. But it was the buyer--a mature adult--who failed to clear the gun and then pulled the trigger. I don't know exactly how statute handles this kind of case. But in my mind, responsibility for the ND should lie with the guy who pulled the trigger.

Charles
 

OC for ME

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...

Seller made a huge mistake having ammo near, much less in the firearm being shown and offered for sale. But it was the buyer--a mature adult--who failed to clear the gun and then pulled the trigger. I don't know exactly how statute handles this kind of case. But in my mind, responsibility for the ND should lie with the guy who pulled the trigger.

Charles
+1
 

solus

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forgive me...but let me understand something...

the UT gun show(s) allow the firearms on the table to have LOADED magazines IN them? really!!

this isn't ammo near...this is bloody insanity.

i would be trully embarrassed to even bring up this subject but then to initially pooh paw the incident to an isolated incident is tragic...

ipse
 

davidmcbeth

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forgive me...but let me understand something...

the UT gun show(s) allow the firearms on the table to have LOADED magazines IN them? really!!

this isn't ammo near...this is bloody insanity.

i would be trully embarrassed to even bring up this subject but then to initially pooh paw the incident to an isolated incident is tragic...

ipse
Isolated incident .... this one actually is a very rare occurance.

I don't see why folks are freaking out ... nobody was injured.
 

JoeSparky

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From the sound of it, the zip tie must have been going through the barrel and chamber, rather than down the magazine well.

I will disagree with your on the seller bearing responsibility for the ND. The gun was not defective. It worked perfectly. The buyer racked the slide and pulled the trigger. If he doesn't know basic safety, he shouldn't handle a gun. Anyone handling a gun has the responsibility to do so safely. That includes verify the firearm is cleared before handing it as though it were unloaded.

If an adult hands a gun to a child, impaired adult, or mental defect, then the functioning adult bears responsibility. If a mature, mentally competent adult picks up a gun (or gets behind the wheel of a car) and causes injury or property damage because of his own negligence, that is on him. Especially if he has represented himself as being competent.

Seller made a huge mistake having ammo near, much less in the firearm being shown and offered for sale. But it was the buyer--a mature adult--who failed to clear the gun and then pulled the trigger. I don't know exactly how statute handles this kind of case. But in my mind, responsibility for the ND should lie with the guy who pulled the trigger.

Charles
The biggest question I have on this is who was it that inserted a loaded mag into a gun offered for sale on a table inside the gun show. This assumes the ziptie was in place before the mag was inserted and if the mag was in place when it was ziptied who didn't look into the chamber well enough to see the round sitting at the top of the mag waiting to be stripped off and into the chamber?

You don't need to know what kind of device or tool was used to send this
 

utbagpiper

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The biggest question I have on this is who was it that inserted a loaded mag into a gun offered for sale on a table inside the gun show. This assumes the ziptie was in place before the mag was inserted and if the mag was in place when it was ziptied who didn't look into the chamber well enough to see the round sitting at the top of the mag waiting to be stripped off and into the chamber?
Exactly. At least several layers of failure on this one. Which is why such incidents are so rare; it actually does require multiple levels of failure of both the standard safety rules as well as the extra rules that most gun shows put in place, before such an ND can happen.

And maybe I'm just paranoid, but I will not put it past the leftist gun grabbers to eventually slip into gun shows and load up a display gun hoping that someone will have an ND so as to build support to shut down shows. Those who will spike trees with ceramic tree spikes so as to avoid detection by metal detectors hoping to destroy the saw blade in the mill, knowing that when such blades come apart they are likely to injure nearby workers, will not have any moral qualms about sacrificing a few "gun nuts" on the receiving end of an ND for the greater good of shutting down gun shows. Ditto the kind of people who cut brake lines on heavy equipment. Lack of brakes gets people killed.

Not only does everyone handling a gun have a responsibility to personally clear the firearm, but any seller who lets a someone handle a firearm, should also clear the firearm before handing the person the gun, and after the gun is returned to him. Indeed, the cautious vendor would not permit customers to just pick up guns. He would keep his display guns under glass in such a way that he has to hand the gun a customer each time someone wants to handle it.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Update with more info

One of the regulars over on Utah Concealed Carry . Org claims to have been present at the gun show when this happened.

Another recgular corrected me in that there have been about twice to three times as many shows as I thought (about 5 or 6 a year it seems). All total, the members recall about 3 NDs at gun shows over the last 8 years or so.

The fellow who was present was within 50 feet away. He says the buyer inserted a loaded mag and racked the slide after the zip tie was cut. Followed by the ND. The witness reports that for cutting the zip tie (I also wonder about having a loaded mag anywhere near a gun being shown) the seller had to pack up immediately and leave the show and has been banned from the show for life by the company that runs the show. He writes that the buyer has also been banned for life from entry to shows run by this company.

In the same post he relates being near an ND at a gun show at the Davis Conference Center when a dealer objected to using zip ties because his gun was unloaded and then proceeded to "prove" it by shooting a hole through a table and into the floor. That seller was immediately cited and then banned for life. Sadly, the gun show was told they were no longer welcome to use that venue in the future.

His post can be read at the link above, about 5 posts down on the first page of the thread.

One ND can shut down a gun show. It isn't right. Perfection is a standard not imposed on any other activity or group. But them's the political realities we face.

Charles
 
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davidmcbeth

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What was the seller cited for ? Sounds like he did nothing legally wrong. What an idiot buyer huh?

Maybe he wanted to rack it it see if the gun was prone to accidental discharge? Test complete.
 

Grapeshot

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What was the seller cited for ? Sounds like he did nothing legally wrong. What an idiot buyer huh?

Maybe he wanted to rack it it see if the gun was prone to accidental discharge? Test complete.
Cited? Where do you see he was charged with a crime?

He was at a private, by contract/ticketed venue. They can make the rules.
 

MAC702

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...But it was the buyer--a mature adult--who failed to clear the gun and then pulled the trigger. I don't know exactly how statute handles this kind of case. But in my mind, responsibility for the ND should lie with the guy who pulled the trigger.
Allow me to fictionalize an anecdote to illustrate my point with something unrelated to firearms, where our expertise may give us bias.

I've seen people fly remote-controlled aircraft. It looks cool. I want to get in to that. So I go to a "model airplane show" where there are hundreds of vendors selling model airplanes, accessories, and of course, beef jerky. I eventually see a model plane on a table with others that catches my eye. "I'd like to see that one," I tell the man on the other side of the table. He's wearing a T-shirt with an "I Fly or Die" anti-government slogan. He's cool, and our conversation quickly convinces me he's experienced in this field. He tells me that the model I'm looking at is a good one, with a very smooth throttle response. I don't know what that means yet, but the control on the table next to it has a lever labeled "throttle." So I push it to see for myself.

Next thing I know, the damn airplane takes off and injures an bystander. People start shouting at me. You see, I didn't know there was a universal model airplane safety rule that says you NEVER touch a throttle lever without the airplane on the field and ready for takeoff. It doesn't matter that it's in a static display and you have every reason to trust the seller that it isn't turned on and charged. Sure, the vendor took some heat and got kicked out, but I'm still trying to figure out how any of this was my fault. All the model airplane experts are blaming me for the injury.

You don't know what you don't know. The vendor was NEGLIGENT. The potential buyer may have been just ignorant. There is a huge difference.
 
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solus

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Allow me to fictionalize an anecdote to illustrate my point with something unrelated to firearms, where our expertise may give us bias.

I've seen people fly remote-controlled aircraft. It looks cool. I want to get in to that. So I go to a "model airplane show" where there are hundreds of vendors selling model airplanes, accessories, and of course, beef jerky. I eventually see a model plane on a table with others that catches my eye. "I'd like to see that one," I tell the man on the other side of the table. He's wearing a T-shirt with an "I Fly or Die" anti-government slogan. He's cool, and our conversation quickly convinces me he's experienced in this field. He tells me that the model I'm looking at is a good one, with a very smooth throttle response. I don't know what that means yet, but the control on the table next to it has a lever labeled "throttle." So I push it to see for myself.

Next thing I know, the damn airplane takes off and injures an bystander. People start shouting at me. You see, I didn't know there was a universal model airplane safety rule that says you NEVER touch a throttle lever without the airplane on the field and ready for takeoff. It doesn't matter that it's in a static display and you have every reason to trust the seller that it isn't turned on and charged. Sure, the vendor took some heat and got kicked out, but I'm still trying to figure out how any of this was my fault. All the model airplane experts are blaming me for the injury.

You don't know what you don't know. The vendor was NEGLIGENT. The potential buyer may have been just ignorant. There is a huge difference.
excellent analogy Mac...

ipse
 

Have Gun - Will Carry

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One of the regulars over on Utah Concealed Carry . Org claims to have been present at the gun show when this happened.

<snip>

The fellow who was present was within 50 feet away. He says the buyer inserted a loaded mag and racked the slide after the zip tie was cut. Followed by the ND. The witness reports that for cutting the zip tie (I also wonder about having a loaded mag anywhere near a gun being shown) the seller had to pack up immediately and leave the show and has been banned from the show for life by the company that runs the show. He writes that the buyer has also been banned for life from entry to shows run by this company.
Sure... good luck with that! What are they going to do, check the ID of everyone entering the show and compare them against a list of banned people? Riiiiight... (BTW, that's a rhetorical question - not aimed at you, Charles.)

I mean, sure, someone could recognize him and deny him admission - this year... but memories fade over time. In 5 years he could be back and no one would know the difference.

One ND can shut down a gun show. It isn't right. Perfection is a standard not imposed on any other activity or group. But them's the political realities we face.

Charles
+1 You got that right...
 
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utbagpiper

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Allow me to fictionalize an anecdote to illustrate my point with something unrelated to firearms, where our expertise may give us bias.

I've seen people fly remote-controlled aircraft. It looks cool. I want to get in to that.
...
You don't know what you don't know. The vendor was NEGLIGENT. The potential buyer may have been just ignorant. There is a huge difference.
If you insert a battery into the RC plane, cut the tether, turn on the power, and then engage the throttle, you are responsible for the results.

The buyer asked for the zip tie to be cut, inserted a full mag, racked the slide, then pulled the trigger. That goes beyond ignorantly pushing one button.

The zip tie should NOT have been cut. Loaded mag should not have been available. Those are on the seller.

But the buyer was also grossly negligent. Every mature, functioning adult in this nation knows guns pose certain dangers. If you don't know what you are doing, don't handle one. If you do know, don't be a moron.

No criminal charges as no serious injuries or property damage and Sandy PD didn't see a need to go after some BS illegal discharge in city charge.

But being banned from the show for both is appropriate.

Charles
 
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MAC702

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...The buyer ... inserted a full mag, racked the slide, then pulled the trigger. That goes beyond ignorantly pushing one button. ...
Agreed. My initial argument and your initial objection were before this was claimed.
 

solus

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KSL news reported an ND at the gun show held in Sandy on Saturday.

Fair use excerpt:

The buyer was interested in a Colt .45 handgun, Carriger said. The seller had all of his weapons zip tied and the potential buyer asked him to cut the zip tie so he could further examine the gun.

"He manipulated the slide, not realizing there was a magazine in the gun. After manipulating the slide, he did notice the magazine and hit the release and took it out, unknowing that he racked a round into the chamber. He then pointed the gun down at the floor and pulled the trigger," Carriger said.

One shot fired, striking the concrete floor.

Concrete bits from the floor hit two teenage boys who apparently did not require medical attention.



No charges are expected in this case. But the seller and buyer should both be banned by the operator of the gun show from all future events, IMO.

Charles
If you insert a battery into the RC plane, cut the tether, turn on the power, and then engage the throttle, you are responsible for the results.

The buyer asked for the zip tie to be cut, inserted a full mag, racked the slide, then pulled the trigger. That goes beyond ignorantly pushing one button.

The zip tie should have been cut. Loaded mag should not have been available. Those are on the seller.

But the buyer was also grossly negligent. Every mature, functioning adult in this nation knows guns pose certain dangers. If you don't know what you are doing, don't handle one. If you do know, don't be a moron.

No criminal charges as no serious injuries or property damage and Sandy PD didn't see a need to go after some BS illegal discharge in city charge.

But being banned from the show for both is appropriate.

Charles
so mate, since your story has changed from your inital post of an apparent unintentional act by the buyer to a premeditated one by said buyer of purposely inserting a loaded mag into the firearm?

ipse
 
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