OC discussion on Lightfighter

[Mjolnir]

imported post

Saint wrote:

There is huge predjuidice on LF against anyone who does not have substantial LE or military experience. Regardless of statistics, logical thought or simple differance in beliefs, most of the members on LF will jump down the throat of anyone who disagrees with their ideas on things. :banghead:

It is sad to see a forum which has an incredible wealth of knowledge and potential like LF be so unconcerned as to their impact on members. Glad to be a part of OCDO where the people are interested in helping and informing instead of flaming.

Now that is flat out wrong and ya know it.

They have rules there and everybody is expected to follow those rules, no exceptions.

So you goout busted not following the rules & then coped a tude and argued with senior members and staff. That's not a good idea on any forum till you are established & even then on other forums it's an automatic ban.

Lots of members ther are not mil/leo anf get along great, bt they do follow the rules and don't step out of line. I've seen some great guys step out of line and get smacked back in line, it's the way things work over there.

It's also how they operate in real life, why put up with assholes who talk shit when you have seen and done it and know it works or does not work.

Some say it's ego, others say it's seeing the elephant and other say it's knowledge and skills while some otehrs say it's a combo of the things mentioned.

All I know is that if the shit hits the fan those are the guys ya can count on, not some armchair commando who has never pissed himself in fear while still managing to accomplish the mission.

What they offer is like the difference between a sheep and a sheep dog, it's a mindset and way of life anybody can acheve if they so desire.

 

[imperialism2024]

imported post

Oh no! I've been ubber criticized! How will I ever deal with the appeals to authority? :what:


I'm not LE. I'm not a defense contractor. I've never shot a person. Nonetheless, I know how I handle my gun, and I know what makes sense for me. As I've said, CC has benefits... but there are scarce few cases where it's going to present an advantage over OC, given the same mindset. Most of the scenarios laid out where the "element of surprise" is so vital are either: 1) wishful thinking; 2) exclusive to LE, etc; or 3) a result of being in condition white.

The most powerful self-defense weapon is the brain. A gun is a tool to help it. It doesn't matter how many rounds you can put through the same hole at 75 yards, or 50 yards, or 25 yards, or even 10 yards. What matters is that first shot at a target a few feet away, and who you have an advantage over not because of how you carry your gun, but because your observational skills and intuition have given you the ability to properly engage that threat.

So unless that's a real advanced CC holster that aids your brain in processing situations, it seems to make more sense to me to remove one more possible complication from addressing a threat. Sure, in good circumstances, a CCer may be able to draw as fast as an OCer. But how about bad circumstances? It seems to me to be like carrying with an empty chamber. Yes, it might prevent a freak AD, and it might scare off a BG when you rack the slide, and if you practice long enough you can probably chamber a round while drawing as quickly as someone who just needs to draw... but it adds an unnecessary complication that could be solved by... thinking. No?

:uhoh:

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

Oh no! I've been ubber criticized! How will I ever deal with the appeals to authority? :what:

Beer???

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

I'm not LE. I'm not a defense contractor. I've never shot a person. Nonetheless, I know how I handle my gun, and I know what makes sense for me. As I've said, CC has benefits... but there are scarce few cases where it's going to present an advantage over OC, given the same mindset. Most of the scenarios laid out where the "element of surprise" is so vital are either: 1) wishful thinking; 2) exclusive to LE, etc; or 3) a result of being in condition white.

How little you understand, yet continue to speak of what ya have no knowledge & refuse to learn from those who have gone before you.

 

[longwatch]

imported post

Well if I went by the majority opinion of LF, I would never OC again.
There is undoubtedly good knowledge to be gleaned from LF but they seem to have a different set of operating parameters than I do.

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

The most powerful self-defense weapon is the brain. A gun is a tool to help it. It doesn't matter how many rounds you can put through the same hole at 75 yards, or 50 yards, or 25 yards, or even 10 yards. What matters is that first shot at a target a few feet away, and who you have an advantage over not because of how you carry your gun, but because your observational skills and intuition have given you the ability to properly engage that threat.

True the Brain is the most important part of self defense, no question. However, with OC youo can not observe everybody all the time, you do have blind spots no matter how hard you try and yes you will miss something & that something could possible be that what will kill you.

What also matters is how you react to the flight or fight reflex, you can have the worlds best observational skills and intuition (what is this and how do you sharpen/build on it) yet when your flight or fight reflex kicks in ya can't hit a dummy at 5 feet with a baseball bat at high noon.

If you have never expercienced an adrenaline dump or train under stress when you do have that dump all kinds of strange things happen & not all of em are good.

Can you fight effectively thrugh that adrenaline dump, or will it bite you in the ass.

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

longwatch wrote:

Well if I went by the majority opinion of LF, I would never OC again.
There is undoubtedly good knowledge to be gleaned from LF but they seem to have a different set of operating parameters than I do.

If you check out other firearms boards you will also note the majority of them are in favor of CC over OC as well.

Thus the reason for this board correct?

Yet you can garner all kinds of superb ideas and knowledge from all of those board and people from those boards can come hear and learn if they are open to it.

 

[longwatch]

imported post

Indeed I just wish some of the ideas we have around here were given the same consideration.

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

So unless that's a real advanced CC holster that aids your brain in processing situations, it seems to make more sense to me to remove one more possible complication from addressing a threat. Sure, in good circumstances, a CCer may be able to draw as fast as an OCer. But how about bad circumstances? It seems to me to be like carrying with an empty chamber. Yes, it might prevent a freak AD, and it might scare off a BG when you rack the slide, and if you practice long enough you can probably chamber a round while drawing as quickly as someone who just needs to draw... but it adds an unnecessary complication that could be solved by... thinking. No?

Fast draw is not exactly important in a gunfight, way more important are stealth, suprise and violence of action.

Empty chamber carry will get somebody killed. It's just stupid & no it will not scare a BG, not at all.

When in flight or fight mode, your though processes shut down & you act/react as you have trained.

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

longwatch wrote:

Indeed I just wish some of the ideas we have around here were given the same consideration.

I'm sure they are, not all posts/threads require a response & not everybody replies to a thread.

 

[imperialism2024]

imported post

Mjolnir: I'm honestly curious. What are some situations a private citizen would encounter where stealth, surprise, etc, would prove advantageous, and where proper situational awareness would be insufficient. That is, please provide some exceptions to my previous statement of "Most of the scenarios laid out where the "element of surprise" is so vital are either: 1) wishful thinking; 2) exclusive to LE, etc; or 3) a result of being in condition white."

Like I said, I'm truly curious as to what you're envisoning.

 

[longwatch]

imported post

Mjolnir wrote:

imperialism2024 wrote:

So unless that's a real advanced CC holster that aids your brain in processing situations, it seems to make more sense to me to remove one more possible complication from addressing a threat. Sure, in good circumstances, a CCer may be able to draw as fast as an OCer. But how about bad circumstances? It seems to me to be like carrying with an empty chamber. Yes, it might prevent a freak AD, and it might scare off a BG when you rack the slide, and if you practice long enough you can probably chamber a round while drawing as quickly as someone who just needs to draw... but it adds an unnecessary complication that could be solved by... thinking. No?

Fast draw is not exactly important in a gunfight, way more important are stealth, suprise and violence of action.

Empty chamber carry will get somebody killed. It's just stupid & no it will not scare a BG, not at all.

When in flight or fight mode, your though processes shut down & you act/react as you have trained.

Anybody know if the Israelis still mandate condition 3 carry? I know it made sense as a safety precaution when they had crappy surplus pistols, but do they still do with good handguns available?

 

[mzbk2l]

imported post

Mjolnir wrote:

I'm not saying OC is bad and/or it does not have a place, but ya sure as hell are at a major disavantage the majority of time & ya don't scare anybody except the sheep. Any hardened crinimal who is hell bent on mayham will target a OC 1st as a threat and a possible means for more weapons/ammo.

The majority of the time where?

How often would the average person run into "hardened criminals bent on mayhem" compared to "lazy tweakers looking for an easy target?"

I don't know about where you live, but were I live something like 80% of the crime is tied to meth addicts. (Unfortunately, I have some personal experience with a number of them.) These are people who sneak around, avoiding the rest of us as much as possible, and looking for easy targets.

Not to get into the argument of OC vs. CC, but based on personal experience, I'm a lot more likely to run into an opportunistic criminal than I am a hardened criminal bent on mayhem. I'm not going to make my decisions based on such an unlikely scenario.

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

Read this thread about how somebody Open Carrying was confronted and was tried to be disarmed http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=700116 If he was CC nobody would have been the wiser and this never would have taken place.

Now read this thread on Open Carry:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=702424

 

[danbus]

imported post

After watching a few vids on store robberies (www.trutv.com/video). It's in my opinion that robberies would be the most likely event to happen to an armed citizen regardless of carry.

OC or CC, I've drawn the conclusion that a BG would just rush in with hopes to suprise their victims. Given that nature, it would be pointless for him to walk in and case the area first, with his face already in plain view and exposing himself to be watched. However there are some of which act like they are buying something, but I sure they would be deterred by the effect of OC. And after all, situational awareness goes along way when OCing.

Going back to the rush in tactic, it's my opinion, that OC would offer the best tactical position. Draw time is minimized with OC vs CC. Not to say that there are some who could draw slower with CC than with OC, but the chances of snagging are minimized with OC.

 

[imperialism2024]

imported post

Mjolnir wrote:

Read this thread about how somebody Open Carrying was confronted and was tried to be disarmed http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=700116 If he was CC nobody would have been the wiser and this never would have taken place.

Now read this thread on Open Carry:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=702424

The first URL doesn't work (it just redirects to the main forum page), and the second one is a discussion of why OC is bad.

But if someone was being "disarmed", that's a case of retention training and, if the disarmer managed to get close enough to the disarmee to engage, probably a result of condition white on the part of the disarmee. Regardless, it's not a case that demonstrates the importance of the "element of surprise", it just explains an unfortunate but managable side-effect of OC.

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

The first URL doesn't work (it just redirects to the main forum page), and the second one is a discussion of why OC is bad.

But if someone was being "disarmed", that's a case of retention training and, if the disarmer managed to get close enough to the disarmee to engage, probably a result of condition white on the part of the disarmee. Regardless, it's not a case that demonstrates the importance of the "element of surprise", it just explains an unfortunate but managable side-effect of OC.

Here is the story now see if you are able to take a step back & objectivley read the story and put yourself in as a observer. However, you can NOT be subjective on the subject, you must look at this from a neutral 3rd party perspective:

class="forumText"I stopped off at a Super Wal-Mart yesterday to buy them out of .223 and .44, which I did, to the tune of several hundred dollars. The woman running the sporting goods counter was very friendly and helpful. I was with two friends at the time, and one of them mentioned that, that we should spend our Wednesday night cleaning our guns and watching Dirty Harry. Sounded like a perfect night to me!

I was open carrying a 6" S&W 29 at 3 o'clock in a Galco hip holster with jeans and a borrowed, West Virginia university jacket over a white t-shirt. It was snowing at the time and I didn't have a jacket on me, so I was wearing my friend's spare coat. The jacket was tucked behind the holster so the gun was clearly exposed. I do not currently have a CCW, and trying to conceal an N-Frame is nigh impossible anyway. All in all, my appearance suggested early 20's redneck, while my friends were business casual. I usually carry in a button down shirt and nice shoes, but the surprise snow precluded me from doing that.

I paid for my ammunition at the counter and moved to the movie section. We spent about ten minutes searching for Dirty Harry, but, unfortunately, couldn't find it. As a consolation prize, I picked up the Death Wish three-pack, True Grit, The Cowboys, and Rio Bravo. After gathering all of these up, we headed for the front counter to pay for the movies. In my left hand were the bags full of ammunition. My two friends were with me. All of us were relatively clean shaven with short haircuts. Both of them were conceal carrying, Friend One with a HK USPc 9mm in an MTAC and Friend Two carrying a Colt Government 1911 SOB without a holster. He also had a small can of OC spray.


As we reached the front of the store, I looked around for an open lane and saw that the Self Checkout was the best option, as it had no line. I set down my ammunition and scanned the first movie. The screen said "Employee Authorization Needed for Transaction Verification". I looked to the end of the lanes at the counter where they had two women employees overseeing the self check-out, and gave them a look that said, "Hey, I need someone to help me out with this." They gave me a look like they knew what was happening, but didn't say or do anything.

All three of us were standing, looking at the screen and around in the immediate vicinity.

After maybe ten seconds, a dark haired man, approximately 45-55 years old, came from around the backside of the self checkout lane and approached from my 10 o'clock while I was looking towards the women at the oversight counter at the front of the store. He was not wearing a name tag, but had on the Wal-mart blue polo shirt tucked in, jeans, a mustache and glasses. He was about 6'1" and had a small belt case that had either a flashlight or multi-tool, or something along that nature. His hands were empty. He came face-to-face with me at arms-length. I thought he was the guy who would press the buttons to approve my transaction. He spoke.

Wal-Mart guy - "Is there a reason you're carrying that firearm?" With a strong, accusatory tone.

Me - ::Slight pause:: "Yes."

I was pretty shocked at first, because, to that point, I had NEVER been challenged in this particular Wal-Mart, or any other, and I had open carried multiple times.

Wal-Mart guy - "Well then, let's see it. Put it (meaning the gun) on the counter."

Me - "No. I will not remove my gun from its holster."

Wal-Mart guy - "Put it on the counter."

Then, he grabbed me on the left shoulder with his right hand.



Massive adrenaline dump.



I knocked his arm away at the elbow while I took a step back and bladed at a 45 degree angle. My vision tunneled, all I could see was his torso. I was yelling loudly and forcefully, but not at the top of my lungs.

"YOU WILL NOT TOUCH ME! YOU WILL NOT PUT YOUR HANDS ON MY FIREARM"

My hands were out in front of me, palms facing out.

Wal-Mart guy - "Ohhh." Condescending tone.

He came at me again, reaching for my shoulder with his right hand and down and the gun on my right hip with his left. I knocked his hands away and covered the butt of the revolver. My two friends moved in to put some distance between us. He took a half-step back, and was just out of arms length. I was yelling throughout.

"YOU WILL NOT TOUCH MY FIREARM! YOU WILL NOT TOUCH MY FIREARM!"

I could hear my heart thudding in my temples. I was not aware of it, but I knew that we were gathering a crowd.

Wal-Mart guy - "I'm going to call the cops!

Friend 1 - "Sir, it's perfectly legal to carry a firearm in the state of Colorado!"

Wal-Mart guy - "You can't have a gun in here. It has to be unloaded and not in public. I was an ex-cop. I would know."

Wal-Mart - "Get out of here before I call the cops!"

Friend 2 - (to me) - "Hey man, just forget about the movies and lets get out of here."

At this point, my mind was screaming, "DISENGAGE! DISENGAGE! DISENGAGE!" in my head, and Friend 2's suggestion was the first plan of action that fit within that framework. I went for it. But first:

Me - "WHATS YOUR NAME?"

Wal-Mart guy - "XXXXXXX XXXXXXX"

I had the presence of mind to pick up my bag of ammunition and exited the store immediately. We got into Friend 1's car and left.

The entire episode, from Wal-Mart guy's appearance to picking up my bag and heading for the door, took 10-15 seconds.

For the first several minutes after reaching safety, all I could think to myself was, "What an idiot. What an idiot. What an idiot."

In the first ten shaky minutes, we discussed what had happened. I called Wal-Mart's 1-800 number and reported the incident to a very surprised woman, who filed a report and said that someone in management would get back to me by the end of the week. She gave me the number for the District Manager. I have called it multiple times, but it just rings. No answering service, nothing to confirm it's a Wal-Mart number.

I did not call the Police. There was some in-car debate over whether Wal-Mart could prevent me from carrying in the store. By the time we came around to the point that, regardless, NOBODY could put their hands on me, we were several miles away. I was of the opinion that the time to call the Police had passed when we left the premises.

Looking back, they probably noticed I was carrying when I went to the DVDs, and were probably shadowing me, or otherwise setting this guy up to confront me, as I went to the front of the store. I believe I was stalled by the computer at the self checkout on purpose. Let me know if that doesn't make sense.

Now, to head off some of the replies:

0. Yes, I am legally able to open carry in Colorado. The entrance was not signed, and signs are rare in this state as OC is rare. I do believe, though I do not have a letter in my hands confirming it, that Wal-Mart defers to the laws of the state in which its particular store is located with regard to the carry of firearms. I was totally legal in all respects.
1. Yes, I have a low post count. I have been around here for a while. Deal with it. No, I didn't make it up.
2. It all happened so fast. There was no time to think through the situation. I basically went to autopilot. Cliche, I know.
3. No, I did not consider drawing down on him. Taking the .44 out of its holster was the last thing I wanted to happen. Neither of my friends considered drawing down either. The one with the OC did not remember that he had it on him.
4. Yes, I made mistakes. I should have seen him coming. I should have yelled for one of my friends to call 911. I should have stayed and allowed the Police to come and pressed for battery charges on the Wal-Mart guy. Of course, that is what some of you will Monday Morning Quarterback me on. Believe me, I have run through it in my head a hundred times over. In the heat of the moment, I just wanted it to be over.
5. It all happened so fast.
6. I am enrolling in Krav Maga immediately. I should have fended him off much better than I did.
7. I am enrolling in classes at Thunder Ranch or Gunsite.
8. Yes, I haz pics. It will take a few days for me to get them up.
9. No, you would never want this situation to happen to you.
10. I never believed that anyone would go for a take-away on someone OCing until this happened.
11. I am going to get my ccw.
12. I will continue to OC.

I feel bad for the Wal-Mart Guy, who was probably store security, because he took a very foolish and dangerous course of action and, had he tried to do what he did to me to someone else, may have ended up seriously injured or worse. All he had to do was politely let me know that open carry was not allowed in the store, and I would have paid for my DVDs and left. Instead, he probably thought he was dealing with some punk redneck, and would disarm me and then call the Police to haul me off and be the hero of the day. At least, that's what makes sense to me.

I would much rather handle this directly with Wal-Mart. I do not want to involve the justice system, if I can avoid it. However, if they try to blow me off or treat me like I was in the wrong on this, I will make it a much more public and uncomfortable issue for them. All I want is to make sure that Wal-Mart gets the message across to their employees that it is NEVER okay to get physical with a customer, let alone one who just spent hundreds of dollars in their store.

With all that said, does anyone have suggestions on how to pursue this?

ETA: Changed "screaming" to "yelling loudly and forcefully" to reflect what both of my friends stated.

 

[imperialism2024]

imported post

Interesting story, but once again, "it's not a case that demonstrates the importance of the "element of surprise", it just explains an unfortunate but managable side-effect of OC."

Now maybe... maybe... and I'm really going out on a limb here... the security guy managed to disarm the OCer, and there was someone in the store who wanted to rob it in the near future, and he just happened to observe this incident, then the OC might have precipitated the robbery and even more remote possible death of the OCer.

 

[Mjolnir]

imported post

imperialism2024 wrote:

Interesting story, but once again, "it's not a case that demonstrates the importance of the "element of surprise", it just explains an unfortunate but managable side-effect of OC."

Now maybe... maybe... and I'm really going out on a limb here... the security guy managed to disarm the OCer, and there was someone in the store who wanted to rob it in the near future, and he just happened to observe this incident, then the OC might have precipitated the robbery and even more remote possible death of the OCer.

Exactly what I figured your response would be.

Good to see you can not be objective in reading the story but focus on what you feel is important even though it has nothing but everything to do with the story.

If the "element of suprise" was kept then nobody in that store would have known the gun owner was open carrying a firearm now would they?

 

[imperialism2024]

imported post

Mjolnir wrote:

imperialism2024 wrote:

Interesting story, but once again, "it's not a case that demonstrates the importance of the "element of surprise", it just explains an unfortunate but managable side-effect of OC."

Now maybe... maybe... and I'm really going out on a limb here... the security guy managed to disarm the OCer, and there was someone in the store who wanted to rob it in the near future, and he just happened to observe this incident, then the OC might have precipitated the robbery and even more remote possible death of the OCer.

Exactly what I figured your response would be.

Good to see you can not be objective in reading the story but focus on what you feel is important even though it has nothing but everything to do with the story.

If the "element of suprise" was kept then nobody in that store would have known the gun owner was open carrying a firearm now would they?

So you figured that I wouldn't take the bait and move on to another, mildly related topic? Maybe I'm not tacticool enough to understand the point of that story besides "Yo, people can see your gun when you OC. Oh, and you need to be able to retain it, too." Explain it to me?

Like I asked three posts ago, I'd like to hear of scenarios where the "element of surprise" is a life-or-death issue (and where the OCer isn't in condition white and isn't LE). If the blood of OCers was running in the streets due to their giving up their "element of surprise", surely this shouldn't be so difficult to address.

C'mon, I'm not even throwing in the requirement the examples be legal in states with a duty to retreat. This should be easy, no?