Pickin a Fight about Training!

[CalicoJack10]

OK, so that we do not keep stepping on other threads, I am posting this one. I think the point was well made that we need to take this discussion from other threads and put it all on one. Then we can rant about this issue all we want without stepping on other people's threads.

The hope is that this will consolidate the arguments from several other threads.

For that reason I will try and pick up with my post that was last on the most recent thread.

As for the rest of it. It is simple. There is a lot of talk of what it will require to get a permit. And it seems that unless the governor changes something major, any training will get you that permit. What you are not taking into account is what happens if it is your wife or child or anyone else you love that gets taken out by a round from your gun because you thought that you learned enough in that basic pistol course. And if anyone wants to challenge my record, or ability, talk to someone who has taken one of my "Basic" courses that I taught for FREE, I guaranty they will tell you that the minimum will get someone innocent killed. A lack of appropriate training can cost you your life, even if you are an "Instructor".

The sad truth is that being that we are getting NEW concealed carry laws, we can loose them. No matter what amount of fighting we put up to keep them from going away. We are the ones that have to stand up and PROVE that we are responsible, because we all know the anti gunners will use any tragedy to their advantage. The idea that minimums are OK is a dangerous prospect. It is also not something that we can take lightly, no matter if it is video's, books, courses, or practice, it is our job to make sure that we are the best of the best.

So if you think the little bit that is being talked about in order to get a permit is enough, just remember, if a missed shot wizzes by a cop or a cops family, then they will treat you like the attacker even if you are defending yourself. And as far as me, I have the training, and I do the practice, and I am constantly researching what needs to be in order to save the lives of the people that I care about, whether that be from me teaching them, or me defending them with my firearm.

The law can not dish out a penalty that will ever match some of the consequences you create as a result of a bad shot.

Edit: Just so we are clear, this is the same thing I have been screaming since we started the fight for constitutional carry, and this is the reason I have always offered a FREE open carry course. I have put up at every turn. Including having to design a FREE concealed carry course as a result of the permit system.

You think I am wrong about any of it, I have two words for you. PROVE IT!

 

[XD40-OD]

I believe training is extremely important

Government mandates however, are unconstitutional IMO

 

[BROKENSPROKET]

Man, I see control issues.

Just becasue one may start a thread, does not mean you own it. Let me say, I dearly love it when a thread stays on top. But, we are a public community and off topic happens, just like it does with friends sitting aroung a talbe.

If you really want a thread to stay on topic, stay on it 24/7 and moderate it.

I can bet you McX, and we love him, would be the first to humorously rain on your parade.

 

[JJC]

I believe training is extremely important

Government mandates however, are unconstitutional IMO

If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".

Reality is we all need to train. Practice Practice Practice.

I'll probably get flamed for this statement, but it's the truth.

I train and train and train. Personaly I shoot 4 to 5 times a month and pray that I will be good enough if and when the time comes.

JJC

 

[McX]

Man, I see control issues.

Just becasue one may start a thread, does not mean you own it. Let me say, I dearly love it when a thread stays on top. But, we are a public community and off topic happens, just like it does with friends sitting aroung a talbe.

If you really want a thread to stay on topic, stay on it 24/7 and moderate it.

I can bet you McX, and we love him, would be the first to humorously rain on your parade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svqjijZHQrI

 

[JamesCanby]

If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".

Reality is we all need to train. Practice Practice Practice.

I'll probably get flamed for this statement, but it's the truth.

I train and train and train. Personaly I shoot 4 to 5 times a month and pray that I will be good enough if and when the time comes.

JJC

If it's the "truth," sir, then you will be able to cite specific references that statistically demonstrate your claim. Without those cites, it is simply your opinion.

 

[qball54208]

If it's the "truth," sir, then you will be able to cite specific references that statistically demonstrate your claim. Without those cites, it is simply your opinion.

I firmly stand w/JJC on this! I ask you JC to which "opinion" JJC made that you want him to cite? I am asking a specific question.

 

[Badger Johnson]

Practice should have three pillars:

1. HG handling, cleaning, technical details, carry details, deployment and similar issues;
2. Safety - technical safety and legal liability;
3. SA, when to shoot, good shoot bad shoot, how to internalize and functionalize principles of combat pistolcraft how to fight with your HG and how to fight in general. A vulnerable person who has no understanding of how to fight, how to contend with a predator is poorly armed no matter what HG they may have on them. IMO, martial artists who have had force-on-force training are much better equipped to adopt HG (I'll say weapon carry, in general) carry as a force multiplier.

Have no holes in your system, have a delivery system for training and skill acquisition, realize that skills degrade, as does reaction time when you're not staying 'sharp'. One way to bolster this is to have a partner approach (this has saved many a LEO). Two-against-one is a synergy, and is far more robust than any one training element.

$.02

 

[JamesCanby]

I firmly stand w/JJC on this! I ask you JC to which "opinion" JJC made that you want him to cite? I am asking a specific question.

He made the statements:

If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".​

and then avowed those statements to be "truth." If there is a study that shows that a majority of people on this forum would not even think about getting any training, or that they have made comments against the need for training, those cites should be readily available.

Without the cites, it's just his opinion, and one that does not seem to be warranted. The vast majority of members on this site acknowledge the need for training and practice, and, in my opinion, would do so whether or not a particular government entity mandated it.

 

[XD40-OD]

If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".

Reality is we all need to train. Practice Practice Practice.

I'll probably get flamed for this statement, but it's the truth.

I train and train and train. Personaly I shoot 4 to 5 times a month and pray that I will be good enough if and when the time comes.

JJC

Personally, I'm a Marine. I don't need no stinking training. it's the other 99.9% of the pop that is the reason I carry

 

[JamesCanby]

Personally, I'm a Marine. I don't need no stinking training. it's the other 99.9% of the pop that is the reason I carry

Your statement, XD, is counter-intuitive. As a Marine, you have already been well trained in weapons handling and marksmanship, and have practiced your skills more than most. This fact is recognized by virtue of law in many states that stipulate that the provision of a DD-214 is proof of weapons training and satisfies the requirement when applying for a concealed carry permit or other license.

What the OP averred as 'truth' was that a majority of the members of this forum would not get weapons training if it was not mandated by a government agency, and that's what I take exception to.

 

[Brass Magnet]

Training = Good
Government Mandates = Bad

That's how I and a lot of people feel about it.

Firstly, it's unconstitutional to mandate any prior restraints on an unalienable right; especially one that's actually enumerated in the BoR. If you disagree with that I won't be able to find common ground with you on this issue.

Secondly, as with all such hyberbole, I can turn around the example given about a wife, child or innocent bystander getting shot quite easily. e.g. What if someone has no permit or training and has need of the firearm to save his/her or someone elses life? You can think of a number of examples. A daughter calls her father from a party to be picked up on the bad side of town, he would like to bring a gun just in case? etc. Should he not be LEGALLY allowed use of said firearm because he hasn't had training? HA!

Lastly, people aren't as stupid as the anti gunners and statists think. Most of us know enough; without training, what not to do. I've been shooting for years and can hit what I'm aiming at but haven't taken any self defense classes though I do read and understand the law. I know that I would only use my weapon as a last resort and only if I knew I wouldn't hurt anyone that didn't deserve it. Will I get more training? You bet! Should I not be able to open carry because I haven't had what you or the government think is good enough? HA!

 

[HandyHamlet]

He made the statements:

If it wasn't for the "Government mandate" that one get training before a permit is issued. The majority on this forum would not even think about getting any training.

The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".​

and then avowed those statements to be "truth." If there is a study that shows that a majority of people on this forum would not even think about getting any training, or that they have made comments against the need for training, those cites should be readily available.

Without the cites, it's just his opinion, and one that does not seem to be warranted. The vast majority of members on this site acknowledge the need for training and practice, and, in my opinion, would do so whether or not a particular government entity mandated it.

I concur. Lets see some data to back up this big, huge, juicy, negative generalization that deliberately paints us all in a bad light. These two are man enough to stand by this absurd statement then they should be man enough to back it up.

The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".
JJC

For instance, I believe the Officer and Gentleman whom you are quoting has received training in a group (group as in more than one person on this forum) class held by the Utah instructor who is the inspiration for this very thread. Do I have it straight? This is like a soap opera with twists and turns everywhere.

Money? Meet mouth. My hardliner opinion.

Man, I see control issues.

Just becasue one may start a thread, does not mean you own it.

So you are calling MKEgal a man? Jack is responding to HER request by starting this thread and nothing more. Come on people, keep up or buy the Wisconsin as it Turns soap opera guide.

 

[Outdoorsman1]

Originally Posted by JJC
The proof is in all the comments "I don't need no stinking training".
JJC

I think maybe the proper quote would be "I (we) don't need no stinking PERMITS"...

Credited to McX as one of his frequent quotes.....

As I am at work and time is short, I will opt not to search for a link to one of McX's usage of the quote, but there are many....

Outdoorsman1

 

[McX]

I think maybe the proper quote would be "I (we) don't need no stinking PERMITS"...

Credited to McX as one of his frequent quotes.....

As I am at work and time is short, I will opt not to search for a link to one of McX's usage of the quote, but there are many....

Outdoorsman1

it is an honor to be quoted, but i fear i may fall from grace:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdTGEWFqd6M

 

[CalicoJack10]

For starters, I personally don't care if we stay on topic or not, this thread is in response to requests from others asking that we "Stay on topic" in other threads. And I am well aware of the Cheeseburger addiction held by at least one member on this forum.

Next, the statement "Every Marine is a rifleman" does not mean every Marine can use defensive firearms in a civilian setting. I will not speculate on the additional training that "A Marine" may have had, but I will say that the use of defensive firearms in a military setting is a lot different than carrying a concealed firearm in the civilian setting.

Next, LEO training does not make you an expert either. Here is another fine example of that.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Ass...-on-back-of-Seattle-Police-car-124666029.html

And it was a Lieutenant that did it.

 

[McX]

!

 

[JamesCanby]

[snip...]

Next, the statement "Every Marine is a rifleman" does not mean every Marine can use defensive firearms in a civilian setting. I will not speculate on the additional training that "A Marine" may have had, but I will say that the use of defensive firearms in a military setting is a lot different than carrying a concealed firearm in the civilian setting.

I cannot find the bolded statement having been made in this topic, although it is often used to describe the primary duty of a Marine. The fact that most if not all states that require training before issuing a permit or license recognize the weapons training of ALL branches by virtue of the fact that all one needs to do is submit a copy of their DD-214 in lieu of a commercial certificate of training. Are you suggesting that a weapons-qualified servicemember or veteran needs to have special training in order to carry a concealed firearm? Can you cite that requirement in the law?

Next, LEO training does not make you an expert either. Here is another fine example of that.
http://www.king5.com/news/local/Ass...-on-back-of-Seattle-Police-car-124666029.html

And are you now saying that everyone needs to be qualified as an "expert" in order to keep and bear arms? Can you cite the requirement that a permittee or licensee be a recognized "expert?"

And it was a Lieutenant that did it.

And his rank is relevant because.....? IIRC, it was an officer that took the AR out of his car and placed it on the trunk of the car that the LT drove away. In truth, I don't see how EITHER one could not have noticed the presence of the AR on the trunk.

 

[HandyHamlet]

[video=youtube;V3FnpaWQJO0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0[/video]


In my hardline opinion.

 

[CalicoJack10]

I cannot find the bolded statement having been made in this topic, although it is often used to describe the primary duty of a Marine. The fact that most if not all states that require training before issuing a permit or license recognize the weapons training of ALL branches by virtue of the fact that all one needs to do is submit a copy of their DD-214 in lieu of a commercial certificate of training. Are you suggesting that a weapons-qualified servicemember or veteran needs to have special training in order to carry a concealed firearm? Can you cite that requirement in the law?



And are you now saying that everyone needs to be qualified as an "expert" in order to keep and bear arms? Can you cite the requirement that a permittee or licensee be a recognized "expert?"



And his rank is relevant because.....? IIRC, it was an officer that took the AR out of his car and placed it on the trunk of the car that the LT drove away. In truth, I don't see how EITHER one could not have noticed the presence of the AR on the trunk.

I am going to address these in a different order than you put it.

A: First of all rank has a lot to do with it because it shows that there is a career behind them, not just some rookie. And doing something unsafe with a firearm is doing something unsafe with a firearm. And for all the yapping they do about training, there should not be so many shining examples of foolishness from LEO's, especially not from experienced officers.

B: I am not citing anything by law, I am citing statements made by many many many many veterans from the korean war to present. Any combat veteran will tell you that the civillian world, and the military world (With the exception of military LEO) are so drastically different, that you have new training that is needed.

C: I will never say that you need to be an expert, it was an expresssion. Intended to help people understand that the basic courses are enough to get someone out on the range. But they are not enough to make someone skilled enough to be safe with a firearm. With the possible exception of basic defensive courses. Depending what the course covers.


And thanks for the Cheeseburgers McX, made me have to go out and get one.

By the way, how are things in VA? I was there teaching about 2 years ago, but I have not had the chance to get back since?