Providing ID when open carrying

[Citizen]

Fuller Malarkey that is very unfortunate... I am sorry to hear that happened to you. Texas has a similar law about IDing when carrying under authority of a CHL but it seems ambiguous to me, and I'm very uncertain about how it'd be interpreted by a judge.

Oh, that's easy. In favor of the state, of course. While not 100% guaranteed, it is so likely as to dramatically reduce uncertainty.

 

[OC for ME]

Oh, I beg to differ... I'm sure he'll have plenty of 1 on 1 coaching time with the DA if they so chose to try and "make an example" of the case... "Right fighting" I think is what they call it. Changed the charges and your story a dozen times pre-trial? Jury won't know it. All that matters is that one good lie.

My Shark: Your Honor, I would like to introduce, as exhibit A, of this recording that my client made of his encounter with Officer Lying Sack-O-S**t.
DA: I, object.
My Shark: I bet you do.

 

[CT Barfly]

I found out the hard way Minnesota has a written in forfeiture of 4A rights in the statutes that benevolently grant the privilege to carry. The state is one of six that has no RTKABA in it's constitution.

Subd. 1b.Display of permit; penalty. (a) The holder of a permit to carry must have the permit card and a driver's license, state identification card, or other government-issued photo identification in immediate possession at all times when carrying a pistol and must display the permit card and identification document upon lawful demand by a peace officer, as defined in section 626.84, subdivision 1. A violation of this paragraph is a petty misdemeanor. The fine for a first offense must not exceed $25. Notwithstanding section 609.531, a firearm carried in violation of this paragraph is not subject to forfeiture.
(b) A citation issued for violating paragraph (a) must be dismissed if the person demonstrates, in court or in the office of the arresting officer, that the person was authorized to carry the pistol at the time of the alleged violation.
(c) Upon the request of a peace officer, a permit holder must write a sample signature in the officer's presence to aid in verifying the person's identity.

626.84 DEFINITIONS AND SCOPE.
Subdivision 1. Definitions. For purposes of sections 626.84 to 626.863, the following terms have the meanings given them:
(a) "Board" means the Board of Peace Officer Standards and Training.
(b) "Director" means the executive director of the board.
(c) "Peace officer" means:
(1) an employee or an elected or appointed official of a political subdivision or law enforcement agency who is licensed by the board, charged with the prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the general criminal laws of the state and who has the full power of arrest, and shall also include the Minnesota State Patrol, agents of the Division of Alcohol and Gambling Enforcement, state conservation officers, Metropolitan Transit police officers, Department of Corrections Fugitive Apprehension Unit officers, and Department of Commerce Fraud Bureau Unit officers, and the statewide coordinator of the Violent Crime Coordinating Council; and
(2) a peace officer who is employed by a law enforcement agency of a federally recognized tribe, as defined in United States Code, title 25, section 450b(e), and who is licensed by the board.
(d) "Part-time peace officer" means an individual licensed by the board whose services are utilized by law enforcement agencies no more than an average of 20 hours per week, not including time spent on call when no call to active duty is received, calculated on an annual basis, who has either full powers of arrest or authorization to carry a firearm while on active duty. The term shall apply even though the individual receives no compensation for time spent on active duty, and shall apply irrespective of the title conferred upon the individual by any law enforcement agency.
(e) "Reserve officer" means an individual whose services are utilized by a law enforcement agency to provide supplementary assistance at special events, traffic or crowd control, and administrative or clerical assistance, and shall include reserve deputies, special deputies, mounted or unmounted patrols, and all other employees or volunteers performing reserve officer functions. A reserve officer's duties do not include enforcement of the general criminal laws of the state, and the officer does not have full powers of arrest or authorization to carry a firearm on duty.
(f) "Law enforcement agency" means:
(1) a unit of state or local government that is authorized by law to grant full powers of arrest and to charge a person with the duties of preventing and detecting crime and enforcing the general criminal laws of the state; and
(2) subject to the limitations in section 626.93, a law enforcement agency of a federally recognized tribe, as defined in United States Code, title 25, section 450b(e).
(g) "Professional peace officer education" means a postsecondary degree program, or a nondegree program for persons who already have a college degree, that is offered by a college or university in Minnesota, designed for persons seeking licensure as a peace officer, and approved by the board.
(d) Upon the request of a peace officer, a permit holder shall disclose to the officer whether or not the permit holder is currently carrying a firearm.

I hung onto the lawful descriptor, believing RAS must exist for detention / stop / forced submission of "ze papers". My wallet was taken at gun point after my vehicle was stopped just outside the city limits following my refusal to ID in a cafe parking lot. Apparently, the locals compared notes and decided I needed a civics lesson. Three city clown cars and two county. AR's seem prolific among them. Full felony stop routine. It seems that having a badge makes all things the wearer does "lawful".

Out of state tags on the vehicle registered to an LLC, an open carrier with a Virginia DL and a Utah permit confused them to the point I was concerned there might be another "Oxbow Incident" in the midwest.

A common understanding there is one gets all the justice they can afford. If you can't gamble on a rights suit, no justice. Cops seem to play on that.

What laws did you break as you drove away? Probably should have had someone else drive after that first encounter.

 

[solus]

Police look for one thing; bodies. Don't supply yours to them for their satisfaction. I suggest you read Boston T. Party's, "You & The Police". A short, quick read and an excellent little handbook to keep at your disposal for reference.

A number of responses here are very good and you'd do well to take them to heart.

outstanding tome and i read it every six months to 'refresh' my aging memory and it provides remembrances of how well his advice has worked whenever i have been stopped by johnny law!!

i actually have multiple copies and give them out freely so others can ed-u-ma-kate themselves.

come to think of it the last time i engaged in the discourse from the book, the trooper is still standing along side of the road going...huh, what just happened with my stop...

i will have to try what SVG et al., have suggested...ask what i am being suspected of doing...

ipse

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

What laws did you break as you drove away? Probably should have had someone else drive after that first encounter.

I broke no laws driving. Their pretext for the drama stop was my not producing ID at the cafe parking lot. As I paid my tab at the cafe, I saw two cop cars next to the truck. As I walked out of the cafe, they got out of the clown cars. As I got to the door one cop greeted me with "We're gonna need to see some ID", I hit the door unlock on the remote and asked if I was suspected of crime. Same cop says "well, no but..." as I got in the truck. I started the truck, dropped the window about half and asked if I was detained. He said "No, but...." and I dropped it in gear and said "good evening". Slowly drove off. FTR, I was open carrying a blued Colt Diamondback revolver, 4". No thigh rig, no neon "I'm packing heat" t-shirt. I'd been in and out of businesses in the community for about 10 days at that time.

Apparently, the cops conversed with their Sgt, who it seems organized the "takedown" just outside the city limits. Feeling being ordered to the asphalt and having five AR rifles pointed at me and my personal property taken [wallet] a bit over the top, I went to the attorney there that handled a real estate closing for me. A general practitioner type, he advised me to "let it go", that I did not want to be a test case. I left it alone for a week or so until I found an attorney that handled criminal defense cases exclusively, thinking he might be able to handle a civil rights suit. I was charged with nothing, BTW. Just harassed, threatened and informed "when you're stopped, you do as you're told here". And the predictable "If you know what's best for ya, you'll cover that thing up".

Second attorney said anything I filed in District court would be dismissed and would need to go through the appeals process. He wanted a 10 grand retainer. Sounded like I'd be treating my money like water down a rat hole, so I let it go. I needed to be 1400 miles west of there, and couldn't invest several trips back and forth to deal with a court case.

I could have walked away from my truck, I guess. I had nowhere nearby to go, and the cops would have simply jumped me on the street. Understand, I did not live there, had only a limited general knowledge of the community. In the few moments I had to assess and act, I did what I did. I didn't have a recorder on me, and with what I know now, it really wouldn't have helped any.

 

[Primus]

I broke no laws driving. Their pretext for the drama stop was my not producing ID at the cafe parking lot. As I paid my tab at the cafe, I saw two cop cars next to the truck. As I walked out of the cafe, they got out of the clown cars. As I got to the door one cop greeted me with "We're gonna need to see some ID", I hit the door unlock on the remote and asked if I was suspected of crime. Same cop says "well, no but..." as I got in the truck. I started the truck, dropped the window about half and asked if I was detained. He said "No, but...." and I dropped it in gear and said "good evening". Slowly drove off. FTR, I was open carrying a blued Colt Diamondback revolver, 4". No thigh rig, no neon "I'm packing heat" t-shirt. I'd been in and out of businesses in the community for about 10 days at that time.

Apparently, the cops conversed with their Sgt, who it seems organized the "takedown" just outside the city limits. Feeling being ordered to the asphalt and having five AR rifles pointed at me and my personal property taken [wallet] a bit over the top, I went to the attorney there that handled a real estate closing for me. A general practitioner type, he advised me to "let it go", that I did not want to be a test case. I left it alone for a week or so until I found an attorney that handled criminal defense cases exclusively, thinking he might be able to handle a civil rights suit. I was charged with nothing, BTW. Just harassed, threatened and informed "when you're stopped, you do as you're told here". And the predictable "If you know what's best for ya, you'll cover that thing up".

Second attorney said anything I filed in District court would be dismissed and would need to go through the appeals process. He wanted a 10 grand retainer. Sounded like I'd be treating my money like water down a rat hole, so I let it go. I needed to be 1400 miles west of there, and couldn't invest several trips back and forth to deal with a court case.

I could have walked away from my truck, I guess. I had nowhere nearby to go, and the cops would have simply jumped me on the street. Understand, I did not live there, had only a limited general knowledge of the community. In the few moments I had to assess and act, I did what I did. I didn't have a recorder on me, and with what I know now, it really wouldn't have helped any.

Is that the reason/ incident that caused your disdain for police? Or are there others?

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[Citizen]

Is that the reason/ incident that caused your disdain for police? Or are there others?

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Attempted diversion. Primus is trying to make it look like Fuller's opposition to bad police is based on a single, or a few, personal incidents. As though industry-wide malpracitices and cover-ups are unknowable to Fuller and cannot possibly have a part in his attitude.

Further, this would be personally insulting. Typically, Primus cannot see beyond the end of his own interests and cannot conceive that a person could be outraged by police mistreatment of others. Primus is trying to make it a personal problem wherein Primus implies that Fuller's antagonism is self-interest rather than including outrage at seeing his fellow human beings maltreated by police. As though, Fuller is so selfish, he wouldn't oppose police malpractice against others.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

Why in heavens name would he need more?
Wasn't the behavior execrable enough?

 

[stealthyeliminator]

Attempted diversion. Primus is trying to make it look like Fuller's opposition to bad police is based on a single, or a few, personal incidents. As though industry-wide malpracitices and cover-ups are unknowable to Fuller and cannot possibly have a part in his attitude.

Further, this would be personally insulting. Typically, Primus cannot see beyond the end of his own interests and cannot conceive that a person could be outraged by police mistreatment of others. Primus is trying to make it a personal problem wherein Primus implies that Fuller's antagonism is self-interest rather than including outrage at seeing his fellow human beings maltreated by police. As though, Fuller is so selfish, he wouldn't oppose police malpractice against others.

Holy ****, could not have said it better.

 

[Primus]

Attempted diversion. Primus is trying to make it look like Fuller's opposition to bad police is based on a single, or a few, personal incidents. As though industry-wide malpracitices and cover-ups are unknowable to Fuller and cannot possibly have a part in his attitude.

Further, this would be personally insulting. Typically, Primus cannot see beyond the end of his own interests and cannot conceive that a person could be outraged by police mistreatment of others. Primus is trying to make it a personal problem wherein Primus implies that Fuller's antagonism is self-interest rather than including outrage at seeing his fellow human beings maltreated by police. As though, Fuller is so selfish, he wouldn't oppose police malpractice against others.

First, wasn't aware you are his official spoke person. That was a sincere direct question to him. Hence me quoting him and asking a straight question.

Second, I was asking if his view IS based on that incident or others. I'm not trying to make anything look like anything. I would say being ripped from a car and having 5 rifles pointed at you would be a reason to be pissed off at police. I NEVER said other peoples incidents couldt affect him. But.... if you think for a second that him reading about some dude in Kansas who is detained by an officer is going to have a greater impact on how mindset then his personal violations then you have issues. He can be the biggest rights activist in the world. I bet the rifles in HIS face are the realest and leave the greatest impression.

Third, as usual no personal attacks except towards me. It was actually an attempt at a civil question towards him. Funny part is I've actually asked him more then once what the incident was that has caused so much hate. I've more often then not said it was he was turned down a job on a PD. While that is me poking at him ( I admit it) the premise is the same. SOME incident has happened to cause his hate and or malice.... low and behold he comes up with a pretty severe incident where he was clearly violated in many ways. I can understand why that would leave a bad taste in his mouth.

Finally, someone who goes to as great of lengths as his does to show police in a bad light can ONLY be due to personal bad experience. You don't spend 30 mins and two paragraphs to creatively bash something or someone that could be said in 6 words just because your so upset someone else was yelled at or violated. Its a very personal thing.

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[Fuller Malarkey]

I highly doubt I'm alone around here in taking violations and trespasses on liberty "very personal".

And thank you Citizen, for fairly accurately summing up my stances and motivations.

 

[Primus]

I highly doubt I'm alone around here in taking violations and trespasses on liberty "very personal".

And thank you Citizen, for fairly accurately summing up my stances and motivations.

Your not the only person who takes it personal. We all should. But you clearly take it to a new level as has been noted several times. Barely a thread goes by where at least one of your posts doesnt get moderated. This certainly isn't due to moderators unfairly attacking you. Quite the contrary they allow you a lot of Lee way.

So be it. If you wish to deny that your very traumatic experience has left a bad taste in your mouth that's on you. You can go with the noble "I do it for everyone else" route.

I was honestly sincerely curious. To know someone's experiences puts them in perspective.

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[Fuller Malarkey]

First, wasn't aware you are his official spoke person. That was a sincere direct question to him. Hence me quoting him and asking a straight question.

Second, I was asking if his view IS based on that incident or others. I'm not trying to make anything look like anything. I would say being ripped from a car and having 5 rifles pointed at you would be a reason to be pissed off at police. I NEVER said other peoples incidents couldt affect him. But.... if you think for a second that him reading about some dude in Kansas who is detained by an officer is going to have a greater impact on how mindset then his personal violations then you have issues. He can be the biggest rights activist in the world. I bet the rifles in HIS face are the realest and leave the greatest impression.

Third, as usual no personal attacks except towards me. It was actually an attempt at a civil question towards him. Funny part is I've actually asked him more then once what the incident was that has caused so much hate. I've more often then not said it was he was turned down a job on a PD. While that is me poking at him ( I admit it) the premise is the same. SOME incident has happened to cause his hate and or malice.... low and behold he comes up with a pretty severe incident where he was clearly violated in many ways. I can understand why that would leave a bad taste in his mouth.

Finally, someone who goes to as great of lengths as his does to show police in a bad light can ONLY be due to personal bad experience. You don't spend 30 mins and two paragraphs to creatively bash something or someone that could be said in 6 words just because your so upset someone else was yelled at or violated. Its a very personal thing.

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Four paragraphs of whining. A new low. :lol:

 

[Primus]

Four paragraphs of whining. A new low. :lol:

The best part of this forum is its plain for everyone to see how childish you are. That's not a new low that's just your standard.

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[Fuller Malarkey]

 

[Freedom1Man]

Is that the reason/ incident that caused your disdain for police? Or are there others?

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What, is that not enough? Does he have to lose a limb, life, property, etc before he can have disdain for uniformed criminals in your eyes?

 

[Primus]

What, is that not enough? Does he have to lose a limb, life, property, etc before he can have disdain for uniformed criminals in your eyes?

No it most certainly is enough. The question was exactly that. A simple straight forward question. Was there something else? Sons guys have multiple bad encounters. Some have one or none.

I never said it wasn't enough. But somehow its getting twisted as if I did.

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[OC for ME]

It only takes one incident to change the view a citizens has of LE. Only one. LE personnel sometimes have a difficult time accepting this fact. The solidifying moment comes when a cop is ask by a wronged citizen....."You were right there and you did nothing about it. I do not understand."

 

[OC for ME]

To a kid, who has witnessed his dog being shot by a cop, will likely only know that cops hate dogs. Even after some growing and expanding of their horizons, that former kid will know that a cop can shoot a dog and get away with it. Now, what is your point?

 

[sudden valley gunner]

Fuller Malarky..Sorry for your encounter having endured a similar attack I can sympathize.

I have never liked the unconstitutional proactive police. When it happened to me it made me a warrior against it. It was a major inspiration behind Move out and Draw Fire.

It's why applaud the efforts of those who take time out to proactively watch the watchers.