I'll have to apologise for my abrasiveness, but I'm tired of how most people who use the "two sides of the same coin" arguement to somehow elevate themselves with their delusions that they have some profound understand of how things really are. Politicians have never been considered noble as far as I know. The "insurgency" if you will, of the much maligned "Tea Party" is a testament IMO that politicians are facing new scrutiny and a awakening voter base.
There are differences in the labels, but perhaps not the people who like to pin themselves with these labels. I see this as changing before our eyes.
No apologies needed, although yours are appreciated. I just prefer to talk about this stuff without the usual denigrations from either side
I make no claim to a higher knowledge apart from anything anyone of us can understand if we just look beyond the headlines and the garbage that's tossed to all of us. I'm not smarter than anyone (in truth, I'm probably quite a bit...less smart....than most here lol), and hope I don't come off that way.
Like you, I see a great change that could possibly come from within, but in reality, I'm not giving the movement much of a chance in terms of long term change for the better. I'd love to see it work out, but I just feel that somehow it won't gain the necessary strength needed to sustain itself. This stuff comes and goes in waves though, so maybe it's time for relative peace to prevail. We can only hope
I can also state that I am, in no way shape or form, a leftist lol. Just wanted to put that one to rest. Some of what I'll say here may come off that way, but then again, some of what comes from the left is actually true. There's no way to fight the truth, after all. They may seem infantile, reactive, and generally annoying, but some of it can't be ignored. Same with the stuff from the far right, as well. You have to consider all sides, that's all.
I used to be a dyed in the wool, Bush following, whocareswhatanyoneelsethinksi'mgonnakillmesomeragheads kind of guy, but a lot of that's changed in the past few years. I guess after retirement I had a chance to sit back and actually pay more than a casual glance in the direction of how I thought things were going.
That should give you a little insight concerning where I'm coming from.
Trust me, if I had all the answers I'd patent them and sell them to world leaders so I could retire the right way, in the islands somewhere, and let them continue their reindeer games in relative safety. But, for now I'll just have to keep trying to figure some of these things out with help from anywhere I can get it. I'm no meta-spiritual Gandalf waving around a magic staff, either. Just some fat dude with unanswered questions who feels sort of used by the process.
So, will something like a "Tea Party" wake things up to the point of real change? Well, I guess that depends on if we think change is needed in the first place, and if this party is trustworthy enough to carry the banner. Here's my thoughts: I see very little difference between a Bush, a Nixon, a Kerry, or an Obama. I see people who, at one time in their lives, fairly idealistic about their beliefs. I think at some point they abandon or suppress their core values for one they believe will carry them to the top. After all, the position of President of the US (or any like position like it in history) is more about carrying the established power than it is using that power to move things in a drastically different direction. No one dedicates their life toward attaining a position like that to make sure it's power is diminished, quite the opposite I'd guess.
In order to sustain or even strengthen that position, there must be a suppression of one's individuality and core beliefs. There's simply no other way to do it. Somewhere along the line, a decision must be made within one's self to sustain the power that's already there, and to strengthen it if possible.
How many times have we sat there and scratched our heads at some of the speeches or actions on the part of our leaders? When we think "Republican", we normally think conservative, family, some kind of religious belief, etc. We hear about smaller government, individual rights, anti-abortion, etc, yet what do we actually get?
On the other side, when we think "democrat", we think of liberal social policies, open immigration, abortion rights, strengthening minority status, etc...yet what do we actually end up with?
I'll tell you what I see- I see Republicans who expand the government, who look past important votes concerning abortion, religious intolerance, and a host of other results which make me think ahrd about their dedication.
When I see Democrats, I see the killing of Bin Laden, the pirates being whacked off at sea to rescue hijacked boats and the crews, I see Vietnam, WWII, Korea.....not exactly what we normally associate with the left, correct?
When I step back, I see very little difference on the macro level. Sure, there's hundreds of differences between the two political platforms, but I also see much of those platforms only being talked about in election years. What I see after the elections is more of the same from both parties.
More examples...
-Obama says he'll shut down Gitmo, but has he? It's been over two years, yet it's still there. Even if he did close it, do we think he'll simply let those prisoners go free, or will he simply move them to other prisons? If the latter is the case, does shutting down Gitmo really matter? Yet all he harped on while on the campaign trail was how Bush was messing up the war. I used to find it fairly odd that he hasn't changed one thing. People point to the draw down in Iraq, but I have a feeling Iraq was going to be left in the dust anyway, despite what we hear. After a conflict, we either move in for good or we completely abandon the place, one of the two.
- Bush, after hearing it from Congress after 9/11, creates the monstrosity that is referred to as the "Patriot Act". Have you ever taken a serious look that what exactly is in the various versions of that thing? It doesn't exactly bring up the image of the stereo-typical conservative policy handbook. Yet, it passes in record time, much like anything else related to legislation that affects individual liberty in this country. Amazingly fast, I'd say, for something which caught us completely off-guard (9/11).
- The invasion of Afghanistan happened what, one month after we were hit on 9/11? You have served honorably in our nations service, and during that time, you've surely noticed that the military, as great as it can be, can't establish a KP roster without at least 3 meetings. We're to believe that in
one month, we mustered the forces of all the military branches, created and executed an invasion of another country, hit key points with precision, coordinated all of the supply needs, all of the air lanes needed, coordinated the use of at least 12 contributing nation's facilities, command structure, personnel, air bases, and launched an effective attack?
For comparison, the invasion of Panama in December of '89 was a result of almost two years of planning, coordination, practice, and training.
Two years for Panama and one month for Afghanistan? We're simply not that ready of a military. Sure, we can send some troops over on a few hours notice, but nothing of a size or scope needed for the invasion of an Afghanistan. This alone should get us thinking. Back then, I'd simply shrug my shoulders and drive on. Now, there's time for me to actually think a little.
Anyway, I'll keep the next ones short. I don't want to load giant posts up and make it hard to keep track of things we'll talk about. I just wanted to lay out a few things and see where they went.
Metalhead47
Rotorhead:
Whoa bro, nothing I said was meant as an insult, you came in talking about saran and evil and I made a connection to poke fun at. Now I'll reply to your post in detail in a few hours when I have time and a proper keyboard, but in the meantime I'll ask you this: if you think the current political situation is beyond hope and you have opted out of it, what, then, is your solution, short of a socioeconomic cataclysm and constitutional "reboot?"
heh- no worries. I used a part of the Black Sabbath song "War Pigs" to illustrate a point, that's all. In a way, I can't help but to imagine some force out there taking great pleasure in our pains. Hell I'm not even 100% in my own thoughts, I just have questions, that's all. I'm to the point of not believing the ol' standard BS that's fed to us. Take a look at any new broadcast and you can see where I'm coming from. Pick one you don't agree with (msnbc, fox, whichever) and it starts to get your blood boiling as you pick out the lies, half-truths, etc. That's how I feel when I see politicians talk. Not in a violent way, but I have great reservations identifying myself with their leadership, especially knowing I was a part of it for 20 years.
Again, I make no claims to absolute knowledge, or even a small part of clarity. I'm just tired of being rained on only to look up and notice it's not clouds I see up there, but a giant dick ******* down on us.
As to your questions- I don't feel like everything is beyond hope. Hope's always there and the reason we keep chugging along. Maybe I'll find a spot in the process of change for the better and maybe I'll pass on before it happens. None of that is something I have a clear view of. Life's too unpredictable to know for sure. I think we're currently in deep kimchee, but not beyond hope for the better
As to opting out, I'm not sure I completely have yet. I know I retired out and am enjoying the hell out of that much, though. I still vote, mostly in a vain gesture of hope, but I do. I haven't checked out of society in any way, I just can't toss my complete support toward a collection of "leaders" who are know liars and thieves who have no qualms or reservations when it comes to sending me off to war while they play their games, knowing they'll never have to go themselves.
What's the answer to it all? Well, I have no clue. If I did we'd all be done with this crap and talking about the baseball season, instead. I'm learning just like anyone else, and hope to further my understanding here. Hell, maybe I'm way off and completely wrong. That would be nice.
Looking forward to further discussion soon.
