• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Taser Causes Man To Burt Into Flames

longwatch

Founder's Club Member - Moderator
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
4,327
Location
Virginia, USA
imported post

smoking357 wrote:
Does our OC extend to tasers? Tasers seem to be a torture device, not a defensive weapon, and it's growing difficult to see taser carry as ethical or responsible.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1208987/Man-bursts-flames-Ohio-police-use-taser-guns-time.html
Sure we can OC them. TASERs can be misused as a torture device, as can firearms, pepper spray, clubs whatever. What is unethical or irresponsible about me carrying them? Your article is about a guy who was trying to escape and fight the police while high after huffing gas, I can't think the police were trying to set him on fire. They did put him out after all. Really, if you get out of your mind high in public and in the process cover yourself with a flamable chemical and decide to fight the police, is it the TASERs fault you catch on fire?
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,689
Location
Whatcom County
imported post

AK_Amerine wrote:
smoking357 wrote:
Does our OC extend to tasers? Tasers seem to be a torture device, not a defensive weapon, and it's growing difficult to see taser carry as ethical or responsible.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1208987/Man-bursts-flames-Ohio-police-use-taser-guns-time.html
........... Really, if you get out of your mind high in public and in the process cover yourself with a flamable chemical and decide to fight the police, is it the TASERs fault you catch on fire?
Ha ha.....exactly what I was thinking.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,836
Location
Mulligan's Valley
imported post

I've been both buzzed by high voltage and shot. A likely outcome of short lived severe pain beats a likely outcome of death, paralysis, or years of recovery. Yes there need to be more rules about their use, but no, I don't think they're difficult to see as ethical carry weapons.
 

smoking357

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
1,100
Location
Pierce is a Coward, ,
imported post

sudden valley gunner wrote:
AK_Amerine wrote:
smoking357 wrote:
Does our OC extend to tasers? Tasers seem to be a torture device, not a defensive weapon, and it's growing difficult to see taser carry as ethical or responsible.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1208987/Man-bursts-flames-Ohio-police-use-taser-guns-time.html
........... Really, if you get out of your mind high in public and in the process cover yourself with a flamable chemical and decide to fight the police, is it the TASERs fault you catch on fire?
Ha ha.....exactly what I was thinking.
Tasers are to be used in place of guns, that is, to repel a lethal, imminent, threat.

Was there a lethal threat in this case?
 

Tomahawk

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
5,117
Location
4 hours south of HankT, ,
imported post

smoking357 wrote:
sudden valley gunner wrote:
AK_Amerine wrote:
smoking357 wrote:
Does our OC extend to tasers? Tasers seem to be a torture device, not a defensive weapon, and it's growing difficult to see taser carry as ethical or responsible.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1208987/Man-bursts-flames-Ohio-police-use-taser-guns-time.html
........... Really, if you get out of your mind high in public and in the process cover yourself with a flamable chemical and decide to fight the police, is it the TASERs fault you catch on fire?
Ha ha.....exactly what I was thinking.
Tasers are to be used in place of guns, that is, to repel a lethal, imminent, threat.

Was there a lethal threat in this case?

Now, you are asking the correct question: when and how should a taser be used.

You first post questioned the legitimacy of ever using or carrying or possessing a taser, which is just gun control.

Given the choice between being shot and tazed, I'll take the latter. Far more chance that I'd get up and walk away. So a taser can be a good weapon.

However, since police officers continue to use them to gain compliance or for torture entertainment, instead of for self defense, I think police officers should be held responsible. And I think it's irresponsible for the manufacturer to continue to do business with unethical customers. They should take a page from Ronnie Barret.
 

Jay Gatz

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2009
Messages
52
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
imported post

Tomahawk wrote:
However, since police officers continue to use them to gain compliance or for torture entertainment, instead of for self defense, I think police officers should be held responsible. And I think it's irresponsible for the manufacturer to continue to do business with unethical customers. They should take a page from Ronnie Barret.
+1 on that, far too often I watch those silly cop shows, and usually someone gets tasered over something BS that it was imho unethical, then when there's a guy freaking out and being a potential hazard to all involved, there's no one around with a tazer... funny how that works.
 

AZkopper

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2008
Messages
675
Location
Prescott, Arizona, USA
imported post

smoking357 wrote:

Tasers are to be used in place of guns, that is, to repel a lethal, imminent, threat.

Was there a lethal threat in this case?

Wrong. Tasers and firearms are not interchangable.

Firearms are deadly force, used to stop a subject likely to cause imminent great bodily harm or death to another.

Tasers are 'less than lethal' force, used to gain compliance from a non-compliant subject.

Anyone using a Taser in place of a firearm, to repel a lethal, imminent threat is an idiot.

Tasers have a maximum range of 21', andaneffective range of8-15'. Bothprobes must make contact with the subject, and not be inhibited by thick or loose clothing, tobe effective.

Tasers, just as OC spray and Mace before that, are a means to gain compliance from a subject without having to beat the living s$%t out of them. It prevents injury to the officer and minimizes the injury to the subject.

Unlike the old 'stun guns', which just used pain compliance via electricity, Tazers actually generate 'white noise' in the nervous system, causing the body between the probes to 'lock up'. Yes it is painful, but that is not the primary purpose. By locking up the subject's nervous system, you are able to quickly move in and subdue him.

Yes, it sucks to be the human torch mentioned in the OP. It is not through misuse of the Taser, however. If you choose to douse yourselfin flamable fumes, you risk going "boom" through static electricity, or neaby smokers, among other things. Yes, the arc of the probes set him off, but generally, there is not time to have the subjects fill out a questionaire before choosing which non-lethal option to use.

I was going to stay out of this rant, but I can't let statements like the above just stand on their own. Such mis-information is no better than those who say "people who carry guns just want to shoot people", or "why didn't they just shoot the gun out of his hand?"
 

Tomahawk

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
5,117
Location
4 hours south of HankT, ,
imported post

AZkopper wrote:
I was going to stay out of this rant, but I can't let statements like the above just stand on their own.
You should have stayed out, then, especially if you think it's okay for a costumed bufoon to subject people to electroshock torture just becase they are disobedient, even if they are obviously presenting no physical threat.
 

Nutczak

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Messages
2,165
Location
The Northwoods, lakeland area, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

AZkopper wrote:
smoking357 wrote:

Tasers are to be used in place of guns, that is, to repel a lethal, imminent, threat.

Was there a lethal threat in this case?
Tasers are 'less than lethal' force, used to gain compliance from a non-compliant subject.

And that is the problem, What is the defintion of "non-Compliance"?

Is a stabbing victim that is sitting on the curb peacefully, but refusing an ambulance ride for medical treatment "non-Compliant" and worthy of being tased?

How about an82 yr-old woman arguing with a 280 pound 6'6" tall cop over a traffic stop, is that activity "Non-Compliance" and worthy of being hit with taser probes?

Many police departments do not have standard operating procedures defining when a taser should or can be used. And it has simplybecome a legal torture device in many cases. I would be a very pleased person if every user if a taser got the same electricty through them at the time of use. I bet a whole lot less deployments for non-violent subjects would be happening out there.

Many departments acquired taser units to deal with violent subjects while using a less-lethal tool. But the officers using them are not using them for that.
I should invent a "taser-proof" garment, something that cuases the voltage to short circuit across the garment so the person hit by it does not receive the charge. it should be easy enough to do.

I am actually quite surprised some overzealous cop has not tased a person legally O-C'ing yet, just becuase he does not like that he is not the only person armed.
 

Tomahawk

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
5,117
Location
4 hours south of HankT, ,
imported post

Nutczak wrote:
I should invent a "taser-proof" garment, something that cuases the voltage to short circuit across the garment so the person hit by it does not receive the charge. it should be easy enough to do.

Many people have already done, or attempted to do this.

As usual, there are calls to ban taser-protection from ordinary citizens and allow only cops and military to possess it. I am not aware of any bans yet, though. Google it and you will find references to this.
 

Kenosis

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
30
Location
Roanoke, Virginia, USA
imported post

Are any of you who are criticizing the LEO's police officers? Have you gone through the training to use a taser? If so, then I am much more inclined to think you have a legitimate opinion on the matter. If not, please stop armchairing.

You will never know what it's like to be a police officer, and quite frankly I find the lack of respect for LEO's on this thread and some others that I have seen repulsive.

Sure there are bad cops out there, but the vast majority of them are good people trying to do the best they can to protect and serve the community.

When a police officer uses a taser on duty, a superior officer, usually a Sergeant comes to investigate and debrief the situation to ensure proper use and the use of the taser is recorded in the report of the arrest.

Police officers use tasers to keep themselves and the people they are tasing safe - safer than introducing a gun into the equation. And the fact that some people cry torture is absolutely ridiculous. Torture would be sticking needles under their finger nails, not using a device that in most cases they can't even feel the effects of after 15 minutes. It is a compliance tool that does it's job well.
 

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

I'd like to get a Taser X26c. They're legal for ciitizens (non-LEOs). But they're awfully expensive.

~$900.

Seldom see them cheaper.
 

Kenosis

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
30
Location
Roanoke, Virginia, USA
imported post

And the "costumed bufoon" that you speak so daftly about is the person you are going to call when something bad happens to you, Tomahawk. If you really think police officers are such evil people, save all the tax payers of the world some money and never call them.
 

Tomahawk

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
5,117
Location
4 hours south of HankT, ,
imported post

Kenosis wrote:
And the "costumed bufoon" that you speak so daftly about is the person you are going to call when something bad happens to you, Tomahawk. If you really think police officers are such evil people, save all the tax payers of the world some money and never call them.
Why so statist?
 

Kenosis

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
30
Location
Roanoke, Virginia, USA
imported post

I'm not a statist by any measure, I simply have a respect for the law enforcement community, and several of my good friends are police officers so I know what their job is like and it frustrates me when they get smeared for the acts of the few bad cops out there.

Sorry I got aggressive, I don't harbor any harsh feelings toward you; I guess it was just a heat of the moment thing. I didn't mean to be rude :?
 

smoking357

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
1,100
Location
Pierce is a Coward, ,
imported post

Kenosis wrote:
And the "costumed bufoon" that you speak so daftly about is the person you are going to call when something bad happens to you, Tomahawk. If you really think police officers are such evil people, save all the tax payers of the world some money and never call them.
Save me the tax dollars, and quit stealing from me to pay for them. The only reason I'd call them is to satisfy mandatory reporting requirements.

More often, the "something bad happening to me" is the cops, themselves. Who protects me from the cops?

Tomahawk is correct.
 

Tomahawk

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Messages
5,117
Location
4 hours south of HankT, ,
imported post

Kenosis wrote:
I'm not a statist by any measure, I simply have a respect for the law enforcement community, and several of my good friends are police officers so I know what their job is like and it frustrates me when they get smeared for the acts of the few bad cops out there.

Sorry I got aggressive, I don't harbor any harsh feelings toward you; I guess it was just a heat of the moment thing. I didn't mean to be rude :?

Alright, look, I was trolling a little, too, I guess. Caught me in a mood.

But to be clear, any cop who thinks it's okay to use a taser on an old woman is indeed a costumed bufoon. As is any cop who uses it for pain compliance (aka torture) instead of as a weapon against violent people.

I wouldn't agree that the "vast majority of cops" are good, I would say it varies from department to department, and some are better than others. Where I live the department is mostly professional, but there are some bad apples. I have been places where the cops were less than professional and curteous, just a bit less.

But it seems that all too often, as Will Grigg likes to say, the default setting for cops these days is overkill. All that money for all that stuff, and judges and DAs who side with them when they do something questionable, and to top it off they have union backing. All adds up to too much.

As for the part about me calling the cops, I try to avoid it unless I have no other choice. I very much dislike being dependent on policemen for anything, and in some cases you are required by law to call them, so those don't count. A free person should strive to do without help from government officials as much as possible. Every time you pick up that phone it gives them another excuse to tax you for their services.
 

smoking357

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
1,100
Location
Pierce is a Coward, ,
imported post

AZkopper wrote:
smoking357 wrote:

Tasers are to be used in place of guns, that is, to repel a lethal, imminent, threat.

Was there a lethal threat in this case?

Wrong. Tasers and firearms are not interchangable.
No. You're wrong. There is a range issue, but handguns and taserguns are short range weapons, only to be used to protect the officer from imminent lethal threat. A gun on the ground is not a lethal threat, so no handgun or tasergun is to be used.

Tasers are 'less than lethal' force, used to gain compliance from a non-compliant subject.
OH

MY

GOD!


They're actually admitting it openly.


Taserguns are lethal, so drop that lie about nonlethality. Lethality is a binary question.

Further, any cop using a tasergun to "gain compliance" has declared war on America. I told you what a tasergun is to be used for. Commit that to memory.

Cops are not allowed to "gain compliance," certainly not with lethal weapons.


Anyone using a Taser in place of a firearm, to repel a lethal, imminent threat is an idiot.
Then turn in the taserguns, because that's exactly why you have them, as a handgun replacement. They should never have left cops in possession of handguns once the taserguns were issued.

Tasers have a maximum range of 21', and an effective range of 8-15'. Both probes must make contact with the subject, and not be inhibited by thick or loose clothing, to be effective.
That's close to the same engagement range for a handgun. Any further than that, and the cop isn't in imminent fear of death.

Tasers, just as OC spray and Mace before that, are a means to gain compliance from a subject without having to beat the living s$%t out of them. It prevents injury to the officer and minimizes the injury to the subject.
That was one of the sickest paragraphs ever uttered in human history.
I can't believe that I'm reading that America is officially dead.
 
Top