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This is what can happen when you're UNarmed

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
659
Location
Renton, Wa
I got lucky this morning. As I am walking to the bus stop on the way to work (one car family and my employer prohibits firearms on the property, let alone in a backpack) I see two black guys beating up another black guy on the other end of the parking lot against a concrete wall; I saw a full body slam even and one guy was egging the other guy on. I keep walking on the sidewalk and I reach into my pocket to grab my phone so I can call the police. The 'egger' sees me with my phone in hand and waves me to keep moving and shouts "keep movin bro, just keep movin." Defenseless and with no reliable means of escape, I pick up my pace to a jog, put my phone back in my pocket, and leave. My stop wasn't far so I simply kept myself out of sight. As the bus pulls up, all three of these people move onto the sidewalk with one smaller black guy clearly trying to get away from the other two. He wants to get on the bus (I think) and the others won't let him. (I see this last part as I find a seat and the bus moves away.)

I took the action I did for the simple reason that calling the police (and the response time required) would've put a big target on my chest.

I can't afford to stand on principle regarding my employer so I follow the rules and Washington doesn't have a parking lot storage law - not that it would've mattered as I was on foot.

Even if I was armed, I may have done the exact same thing. I may have called the cops once I was out of their line of sight, but I didn't want to put myself in a position where my gun may have needed to be used and I don't see myself as ultimately responsible for what happens to others.

Still - it was rather unnerving not having the means to protect myself had things gone differently.
 

travr6

New member
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
63
Location
Louisville ky
Not quite sure what I would have done either.

If that guy cared about his own safety he would have been carrying. It's not up to me to help others because they choose to be defenseless
 
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,449
Location
Valhalla
Carrying may not be the best answer for the OP or for the guy getting beaten up.

For the OP - suppose he had managed to stop the beating. Then what? What's his obligation to the victim beyond that point? How does he safely withdraw if he has to wait for the bus?

For the victim - something tells me that he might not have been a completely innocent party. I get the strong odor of lifestyle choices coming home to roost.

Which brings me back to the OP - was the desire to intervene a knee-jerk response or had you covered some of the questions I raised?

Comments are welcome - with the exception of "we are sheepdogs". It may be different for you but I don't carry in order to protect the rest of the world from the evil that's out there.

stay safe.
 

travr6

New member
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
63
Location
Louisville ky
I choose to arm myself as to not be the guy getting beat up.
Unsure how it would not be the best answer for guy getting beat up.

You are probably correct in assuming poor lifestyle choices
 

OC Freedom

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
646
Location
ADA County, ID
I got lucky this morning. As I am walking to the bus stop on the way to work (one car family and my employer prohibits firearms on the property, let alone in a backpack) I see two black guys beating up another black guy on the other end of the parking lot against a concrete wall; I saw a full body slam even and one guy was egging the other guy on. I keep walking on the sidewalk and I reach into my pocket to grab my phone so I can call the police. The 'egger' sees me with my phone in hand and waves me to keep moving and shouts "keep movin bro, just keep movin." Defenseless and with no reliable means of escape, I pick up my pace to a jog, put my phone back in my pocket, and leave. My stop wasn't far so I simply kept myself out of sight. As the bus pulls up, all three of these people move onto the sidewalk with one smaller black guy clearly trying to get away from the other two. He wants to get on the bus (I think) and the others won't let him. (I see this last part as I find a seat and the bus moves away.)

I took the action I did for the simple reason that calling the police (and the response time required) would've put a big target on my chest.

I can't afford to stand on principle regarding my employer so I follow the rules and Washington doesn't have a parking lot storage law - not that it would've mattered as I was on foot.

Even if I was armed, I may have done the exact same thing. I may have called the cops once I was out of their line of sight, but I didn't want to put myself in a position where my gun may have needed to be used and I don't see myself as ultimately responsible for what happens to others.

Still - it was rather unnerving not having the means to protect myself had things gone differently.
I always carried at work. A Ruger LCP concealed with an extra mag is easy to keep concealed during work unless you are a life guard or something that requires minimal clothing (don't ask don't tell policy on that one). My employer did not allow firearms, well to bad, I don't care what they like or not.
I was shot at on the job once and that changed my whole viewpoint on being armed at all times. If I can't be armed I do not go there period. So I don't fly, go to states that prohibit carry and so on and so on.
 

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
659
Location
Renton, Wa
For the OP - suppose he had managed to stop the beating. Then what? What's his obligation to the victim beyond that point? How does he safely withdraw if he has to wait for the bus?

Which brings me back to the OP - was the desire to intervene a knee-jerk response or had you covered some of the questions I raised?
My only thought was I thought about getting the person who was beaten up some help even if it was delayed. Even pulling out my phone to do that elicited a threat from the BG so due to the sudden potential risk, I simply walked away. I would have done the same thing if I was armed. The only concern I had was the threat could possibly have spread as there were multiple assailants. Since I had no safe way to withdraw, couldn't defend myself if it escalated, and it really wasn't any of my business, I got to as safe a place as I could until the bus showed up.

Maybe I should have just ignored it.

I also wanted to see if I could get a taser or stun gun since firearms are prohibited at my place of work, but alas their weapons policy includes electric weapons as well. I can get a small can of pepper spray :(
 
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acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
659
Location
Renton, Wa
I think maybe because even though I wasn't involved and had no desire to get involved, the fact that I was defenseless and the threat could have turned against me is why I am riled up and why I think I might have called for help given better circumstances. Since merely reaching for my phone caused a ruckus, I backed off ... quickly.

Tidbits - the assailants never got inside 20 feet until the bus pulled up. I was never in danger of imminent violence. There was also a car that was oddly parked so I had an inkling that more was going on that I could see.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,676
Location
here nc
little of column A and a little of B and just a smidgen of C:
A. i agree with Skid, as told it does definitively sound like life style choices and perhaps a business deal gone awry.
B. Trav ~ your presume the individual getting a whooop'g have the financial resources to obtain a firearm.
C. OP, sorry you didn't follow your conscience to notify the nice LEs about the assault ~ even after you were safely entrenched on the bus...this way if they find a battered body across town they at least know where the beating took place!

and the reason you are riled up could possibly be listed in C above.

btw, i steadfastly agree, i carry a firearm to provide defense until i and my loved ones reach safety, but i always a good witness against the aggressor(s) so they are held accountable for their actions.

ad nauseam: i report even if i know the nice LEs won't do a thing...

ipse
 
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travr6

New member
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
63
Location
Louisville ky
B. Trav ~ your presume the individual getting a whooop'g have the financial resources to obtain a firearm.
Pretty sure he does. Even poor people in America are doing well enough to have an XBOX, fridge, microwave, etc...
Hell the cars in the projects are nicer than what I drive.
Unless he was a homeless person my guess is he can afford a gun.

Saw a homeless guy begging for money yesterday in a pair of Jordans, wearing a necklace, and smoking a cigarette.

The poorest neighborhoods in nearly every big city are where most of the firearm related deaths occur.
 
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solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,676
Location
here nc
Pretty sure he does. Even poor people in America are doing well enough to have an XBOX, fridge, microwave, etc...
Hell the cars in the projects are nicer than what I drive.
Unless he was a homeless person my guess is he can afford a gun.

Saw a homeless guy begging for money yesterday in a pair of Jordans, wearing a necklace, and smoking a cigarette.

The poorest neighborhoods in nearly every big city are where most of the firearm related deaths occur.
you are correct i perhaps used the wrong term...financial...should have stated able to legally obtain a firearm...

and you are just now coming to the realization beggars are homeless?

ipse
 

tcbrad98

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
46
Location
Kansas
So the basic consensus is 'be out for just yourself and loved ones, let the rest of humanity be damned'? When did we become to scared to stand up for what is right. I'm not saying that the OP should have engaged directly, but now we are too afraid to even call the police? How is head down, just shuffle on any better than the people that just record something bad happening when they could help?

Everyone has to do what they feel is right for them, but...
 

DeSchaine

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
537
Location
Kalamazoo, MI
In a situation like that, I'd use my body camera. The same stuff we use to record our interactions with LEO's and keep them honest can be used to help them in a situation like this. If you have one, anyways. I have mine on me all the time, even if I'm not carrying.

In the scenario described by the OP, after getting out of the immediate threat like he did, it would be simple to call the police from work and have them meet you there. If you had the camera, you turn over a copy of the vid and that makes DAMN SURE the bg's are headed to a cell.
 

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
659
Location
Renton, Wa
So the basic consensus is 'be out for just yourself and loved ones, let the rest of humanity be damned'? When did we become to scared to stand up for what is right. I'm not saying that the OP should have engaged directly, but now we are too afraid to even call the police? How is head down, just shuffle on any better than the people that just record something bad happening when they could help?

Everyone has to do what they feel is right for them, but...
That is a bit extreme don't you think? Recording or calling for help had a reasonable likelihood of me getting a whoopin. I would've had more options (perhaps more confidence) had I had my sidearm with me. Still, the most I would've done is call the police from a safe distance. I have other priorities thanks.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,449
Location
Valhalla
So the basic consensus is 'be out for just yourself and loved ones, let the rest of humanity be damned'?
As concerns me, a resounding yes. I am not being paid to be anybody else's bodyguard. But just as with all other absolutes there are exceptions. I've got a sort-of list of what they are and for the most part that list is "controlled" by the question of what I can do to remove the victim from the threat as opposed to just (merely) stopping the threat momentarily. And yes, there is always going to be the issue of whether or not my intervening puts me in danger.

When did we become to scared to stand up for what is right. I'm not saying that the OP should have engaged directly, but now we are too afraid to even call the police?
Most smart phones, including the flip style, have an "EMERGENCY" button that dials 911. Most (we know the stories of when they do not) PDs follow up on 911 calls when the caller does not respond to the dispatcher. E911 GPS location has been mandatory for years. My guess is that a significant number of people are not aware of that feature on their phone.

How is head down, just shuffle on any better than the people that just record something bad happening when they could help?

Everyone has to do what they feel is right for them, but...
With all due respect, please explain how you, in the exact same circumstances as the OP, would "help".

stay safe.
 

acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
659
Location
Renton, Wa
As concerns me, a resounding yes. I am not being paid to be anybody else's bodyguard. But just as with all other absolutes there are exceptions. I've got a sort-of list of what they are and for the most part that list is "controlled" by the question of what I can do to remove the victim from the threat as opposed to just (merely) stopping the threat momentarily. And yes, there is always going to be the issue of whether or not my intervening puts me in danger.



Most smart phones, including the flip style, have an "EMERGENCY" button that dials 911. Most (we know the stories of when they do not) PDs follow up on 911 calls when the caller does not respond to the dispatcher. E911 GPS location has been mandatory for years. My guess is that a significant number of people are not aware of that feature on their phone.



With all due respect, please explain how you, in the exact same circumstances as the OP, would "help".

stay safe.
+1 - my sentiments exactly skid. I would also like to know how I could have "helped." Use the exact same variables - I have a phone (with camera) and nothing else. No gun or other defense tool. Bear in mind the act of pulling out my phone elicited a response from the BG. Pray tell - I am curious!
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,165
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
I got lucky this morning.

Even if I was armed, I may have done the exact same thing..........
btw, i steadfastly agree, i carry a firearm to provide defense until i and my loved ones reach safety, but i (am) always a good witness against the aggressor(s) so they are held accountable for their actions.
I am "one of those people". The ones who run to the gunfire instead of away. bad guys are cowards. They run away and shoot themselves over and over. I am old. I am impatient and do not tolerate that kind of cr@p when it is shoved in my face. I understand your employers wishes. I have always considered my employers wishes. That said, I still do not go unarmed into "indian country".

Just bought another little gem that looks like this. Goes with almost any attire with the exception of swimwear. As a disclaimer, I do not in any way suggest or recommend NOT following all the rules and regulations of daily life. Your choice.

View attachment 12773
 

tcbrad98

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
46
Location
Kansas
With all due respect, please explain how you, in the exact same circumstances as the OP, would "help".

stay safe.
A call to 911 once in the bus, relaying all the pertinent details, description of those involved, etc.

How hard is it to place a phone call once safely on the bus?

I didn't say that the OP should get directly involved, I don't know the particulars of their physical limitations, training , and so forth. I'm not even saying that I would have gotten directly involved either, just that there sounds like there were options.
 
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skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,449
Location
Valhalla
tcbrad98 -

You and I seem to be on the same page. All I did was suggest that there is a way to call 911 at/near the scene without drawing undo attention by holding the phone up to your face.

Those of us of a certain age or state of medical frailty :uhoh: may be wearing one of those "Help! I've fallen and can't get up" devices. They are usually worn at just the right spot to simulate the clutching of pearls. It's a two-step process to get to 911 but it is an option for one of us. I have used mine to call about an auto wreck and about some fool bicycle racers riding in a pack in the travel lane on a limited access highway. Both times the delay in contacting and then relaying info to 911 was less than 2 minutes.

stay safe.
 

rscottie

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
603
Location
Ashland, Kentucky, USA
When I push the volume up button on the side of my phone, it sounds the ringtone.

I used that feature one time to call on a fight in progress when they spotted me pulling my phone out.

I simply pushed the button and pretended to answer a call while also pushing the quick emergency dial button.

The guys beating up the other guy thought I answered a call and continued the beat down as I rounded the corner and told 911 what was happening.

A police car passed going in that direction as I reached my truck.

And, I never considered pulling my firearm.


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