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Why didn't someone carrying in that Texas Wal-Mart interviene to stop that mass shooting?

PonderingMarmoset

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Sep 19, 2019
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I'm from Texas, so trust me when I say with complete confidence that there *had* to be at least 20 handguns in that store at the time of that rampage shooting, either carried concealed or openly. So why didn't someone in posession of one of them stop the shooter? If we're going to say that we (OC and CCW'ers) carry for the sake of protecting ourselves and those around us under dire circumstances, have we let the public down after that rampage shooting? Can we still make that argument?
 

solus

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Aug 22, 2013
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My carry pistol is for the defense of myself and “loved ones” not J Q Public.

There have been numerous incidents where an armed Good Samaritan citizen, not affiliated with LE, has attempted to intervene and been mortally wounded by the shooter or responding LEs leaving behind their family grieving!

After the Aurora theater shooting several discussions surfaced of different forums concerning the same subject...why didn't someone take out the shooter...so citizen A in top tier seats stands up shoots down towards the gunfire; citizen B saw A get up and fire and hear someone scream down below and believes A is a part of the problem so shoots towards A; citizen C watched both A & B firing their weapons and hears further screams...an so forth!

True situation, a M/F couple shot & killed several deputies while they were seating in their cafe booth having lunch, then went to Walmart, male shot into the air while pushing shopping cart and an armed male citizen rushed from the checkout area and walked behing the perp with gun drawn and told perp to cease...citizen was shot and killed where they stood by the perp’s female companion following 10-20 feet behind. Family left without father & wage earner!

LEs are egregious in chaos shootings situations of seeing a firearm and hurling incoherent verbal commands and a split second later emptying their weapon cuz someone didn't obey “their commands” and the body armored LE recites the blue mantra ~ “they feared for their life and the perp didn’t react to my command” and QI kicks in.

Nope, ain't my job to defend J Q Public...
 

Ghost1958

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Nov 5, 2015
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Kentucky
The above would cover some who think the same way. A massacre is,ok as long as it isn't "me and mine ".

Far from covers every armed person though as just as many don't think that way.

That Walmart was located in a mall that is a GFZ. Texas criminalizes the the RTKABA if one carries past a no gun sign.

More likely there may have been 2 who risked carrying into a,Texas GFZ, and those 2 or 3 likely either feared acting for being arrested, or had the same me and mine thought process as posted above.

Y'all need to get FOL removed from Texas signs.

The ONLY answer to stopping active shooters is to remove GFZ, or at minimum render no gun signs useless by removing FOL from them.

Armed citizens, on the spot , when an active shooter strikes, is the only way to stop or at minimum lessen the damage done by an active shooter.

Police rarely are around where an active shooter strikes, and even more rarely will engage unless there is an army of them. The carnage is done by the time they do diddly.

They in most cases won't be anywhere near the shooter until it's all over.

Gun carriers have stopped several mass shootings in progress. In states where the business is not allowed to criminalize the RTKABA .
 
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solus

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Ah, ghost you are absolutely correct about the mentality there are quite a few carry citizens who want, at any cost to themselves and family’s future wellbeing and willing to endure legal, medical, loss of economic revenue, etc., to play hero.

But do not forget while a great many have honorably served this nation, yet not all have been given military or LE style up close and personal tactical training, nor are all spry, full of exuberance, type of individuals, nor not all have the coordination, e.g. original full function use of joints and such we had in our youth, nor...

twas unequivocally stated in my post “I” ! My decision not lightly made but rather over months of anguished discussion, with myself & I, considering the moral & ethical ramifications which resulted in my being able to once again sleep with my SD decision.

But you are absolutely correct about signage carrying the weight of law however also remember the 2016 chaotic legislation clamor wasn’t about the signage but OC’g w/privilege card...and don’t forget the nice clause included giving the nice LEs unfettered privilege to ask Lone Star OC’g citizens for “their papers” w/ or w/o RAS!
 

Ghost1958

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Nov 5, 2015
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946
Location
Kentucky
Ah, ghost you are absolutely correct about the mentality there are quite a few carry citizens who want, at any cost to themselves and family’s future wellbeing and willing to endure legal, medical, loss of economic revenue, etc., to play hero.

But do not forget while a great many have honorably served this nation, yet not all have been given military or LE style up close and personal tactical training, nor are all spry, full of exuberance, type of individuals, nor not all have the coordination, e.g. original full function use of joints and such we had in our youth, nor...

twas unequivocally stated in my post “I” ! My decision not lightly made but rather over months of anguished discussion, with myself & I, considering the moral & ethical ramifications which resulted in my being able to once again sleep with my SD decision.

But you are absolutely correct about signage carrying the weight of law however also remember the 2016 chaotic legislation clamor wasn’t about the signage but OC’g w/privilege card...and don’t forget the nice clause included giving the nice LEs unfettered privilege to ask Lone Star OC’g citizens for “their papers” w/ or w/o RAS!
The decision to act or not, in such a situation is of course a personal decision , as it should be.

Some have made the decision not to act. Which is fine. For them.

Others simply will engage Not so much to be a hero I don't believe as,one could easily wind up pushing up daisys, but for the same reasons we have volunteer firefighters, etc. Some are just not wired to be able to stand by while innocents are mowed down by a maniac.

And it is True that Texas is not that gun friendly, over all. That needs to change in Texas and other similar states so that those who would engage an active shooter can be armed , all the time , and no prosecution possible of an armed citizen attempting to stop a active shooter.

JMO.
 

KBCraig

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Granite State of Mind
I'm from Texas, so trust me when I say with complete confidence that there *had* to be at least 20 handguns in that store at the time of that rampage shooting, either carried concealed or openly. So why didn't someone in posession of one of them stop the shooter? If we're going to say that we (OC and CCW'ers) carry for the sake of protecting ourselves and those around us under dire circumstances, have we let the public down after that rampage shooting? Can we still make that argument?
Newbie goes 0-for-2 on trolling posts.
 

The Big Guy

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Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
1,965
Location
Waco, TX
I'm from Texas, so trust me when I say with complete confidence that there *had* to be at least 20 handguns in that store at the time of that rampage shooting, either carried concealed or openly. So why didn't someone in posession of one of them stop the shooter? If we're going to say that we (OC and CCW'ers) carry for the sake of protecting ourselves and those around us under dire circumstances, have we let the public down after that rampage shooting? Can we still make that argument?
I don't think you live in the same part of Texas I do. This is a very gun unfriendly state. It wouldn't surprise me if there were no people carrying in that store. Even if you have a permission slip there are so many state sponsored (legal) signs up at stores that it is very hard to carry here. Why bother with carry?

TBG
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Jul 12, 2011
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northern wis
Having trained and given training for active shooter situations. One needs to deeply consider acting is any given situation.

None are alike so making that decision to act will be different each and every time. People have acted and saved lives.

To say someone didn't do something and something happened or did not happen. It is very hard to prove a negative

To say for certainly that one would or would not act is disingenuous. As one will not know until the situation is evolving.

To say one way or the other is leaving you with a mind set that could be right or wrong at the given time.

You could very well fail to act properly as your mind is already made up.

One can take any situation and Monday quarter back it for positives and negatives depending on ones point of view.

There are lessons to be learned for sure.

But if you look at any situation with a certain point of view one could very will learn the wrong ones.

Consider very carefully having ones mind made up to only do a certain thing.
 

Ghost1958

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Nov 5, 2015
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Kentucky
Circumstances dictate actions for sure.
However. Not having a general idea of how one will react to such a situation is a bad,mindset to have.

A general mindset such as, will one engage a active shooter or not need to be made,before the situation arises. To do less is putting oneself in the postion of possibly freezing in indecision.

The method of engagement or even escape will be dependent on the circumstances.

Personally IMO it's incorrect to advise people they cannot develops a mindset of action unless they are staring down the barrel if an active shooters gun.

Yes some will freeze up. Because they have never faced a,violent attack.

But one hardly needs to have been in an active shooter situation to know in general what they will do or not do.
 

solus

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Aug 22, 2013
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Course of action carefully considered with an appropriate decision reached for this unassuming but appropriately armed gentleman ~ I can unequivocally sleep quite soundly with the decision.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
Personally IMO it's incorrect to advise people they cannot develops a mindset of action unless they are staring down the barrel if an active shooters gun.
Developing a mind set for action is one thing.

Limiting one actions to a certain type is another.

Saying I will always disengage, I will always engage could very well lead to the wrong action taken.

Being flexible and open mined to what actions you could take most likely will lead to the best results.
 

solus

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Developing a mind set for action is one thing.

Limiting one actions to a certain type is another.

Saying I will always disengage, I will always engage could very well lead to the wrong action taken.

Being flexible and open mined to what actions you could take most likely will lead to the best results.
Being ‘operationally’ open minded & flexible is the mentality of fools and leads to indecision under stressful life altering situations and such foolhardy individuals such as LE s who believe they are invincible due to their privilege of QI.

While you are professing interdiction as well as stating with bravado to act to step up, this unassuming armed gentleman does not wish to endure the judicial aftermath & needless legal expenditures as well as turmoil & stress associated with defending J Q Public at any cost!

Wait you’re covered by LEOSA privilege...never mind!
 

Ghost1958

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Kentucky
Solus brings up a good point. One that probably affects more folks decision to not engage an active shooter than is thought.

That is legal risk of acting against an active shooter.

The law needs,to be changed in every state that when a person has attempted to engage and stop an active shooter that person is immune from any criminal prosecution or civil action. Including immunity from being arrested or detained or surrendering their weapon. PERIOD.

An armed citizen cannot make the massacre of helpess victims any worse than it already is.

While legalities don't play into the decision to engage for many of us it does for many also.
 

solus

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H U Z Z A H...Thanks ghost for untangling what i was trying to articulate....

Civil suits...Zimmerman & OJ comes to mind...

Grieving family members talking to newspeek/social media...‘This citizen killed my ~ son, nephew, daughter, husband, wife who were good folk, bit misguided maybe, but hasn’t done anything bad in the past...’
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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North Carolina
Self defense is an individual responsibility, as soon as people learn not to count on us who do carry, and the police the better. Not everybody should carry, or want to, but don't expect me to stick my neck out for you.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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northern wis
Being ‘operationally’ open minded & flexible is the mentality of fools and leads to indecision under stressful life altering situations and such foolhardy individuals such as LE s who believe they are invincible due to their privilege of QI.

While you are professing interdiction as well as stating with bravado to act to step up, this unassuming armed gentleman does not wish to endure the judimeial aftermath & needless legal expenditures as well as turmoil & stress associated with defending J Q Public at any cost!

Wait you’re covered by LEOSA privilege...never mind!
Not being flexible in ones tactics can lead to using the wrong ones at the wrong time.

Situations normally are very fluid. Not being able to stop, and change what one is doing or going to do.

Can lead to the wrong actions or decisions being made.

Good training and mind set allows one to do so with out being indecisive under stress.

If one can not do so for what ever reason then one maybe should look at their own shortcomings and work to correct them.

If a person does not feel comfortable in taking action for what ever reason that decision is totally theirs.

One can always come up with reasons or excuses for doing something or not doing something. If those reasons are always proper and right that is a different story.

The only "privilege" that the LEOSA gives a retired LEO is the privilege to carry a personal handgun in 50 states.
After meeting the various requirements.

There is no QI there is no department or government backing


Even active working LEO.s who carry out side the jurisdictions. Most do not have QI or department or government backing.

Their is nothing in the LEOSA that gives them such.
.
 
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solus

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Ah the overconfidence bias...

blamed for the sinking of the Titanic ~ touted as being unsinkable!
Hitler’s winter advance into Russia
the nuclear accident at 3 mile island & Chernobyl ~ don’t need that gauge in the control room!
the loss of Space Shuttles ~ o-rings should be fine!
India’s loss of their lunar craft ~ thrusters, parachutes, and our control pgm’g will slow the decent!
and many other past catastrophes...

Overconfidence causes an immense faith in ourselves to be able to situationally overcome, yet this mentality causes an almost immediate fault in our cognitive judgments of assessing situational vulnerability[ies] due to these confidence bias[es] of taking unnecessary risks by not allowing the ability to see/identify mistakes leading to an incorrect/delayed reaction while over correcting on the fly.

Yes FI, your immense tactically understanding & training works well in those real or contrived “controlled” training situations but there is, unfortunately, that unknown reality out there where situationally you missed a training scenario which someone else smarter or through dumb luck thought of and now has the tactical advantage or your shoulder/leg joint gives out as you spring into action or you are injured first From a “lucky“ or shot...or...

OJ found not guilty criminally yet lost everything civilly....
 
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