Misinformed NRA instructors in Ct.

[MAC702]

..I believe with the national opencarry 'movement' picking up momentum, the NRA needs to address to their instructors the need to communicate the laws/options on OC...

This is not an NRA problem. It is the course that the State is requiring. The NRA Basic Pistol does not have a section on legal. The NRA courses on Personal Protection In the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home do include legal sections, which are supposed to be taught by a lawyer or someone else authorized by the state to conduct a course on firearms legalities. This may or may not be the NRA-Certified Instructor.

If the laws should be taught, then the State has to require a different NRA class, if they are requiring an NRA class.

NV requires a course very similar to the NRA PPOTH course. FL requires ANY type of certificate which they can construe to include some type of firearm training. They accept Hunter Safety classes. They even accept military discharge papers whether your job in the military gave you any firearms experience or not.

 

[MAC702]

Apparently one more 'instructor' informed, albeit particially.......................

Hello,
No, in Connecticut you have the right to carry exposed but as I am an instructor for the NRA and not a state representative...

Actually, we are told matter-of-factly in our instructor classes, that we are not "instructors for the NRA." We are NRA-certified instructors. We do not work for the NRA. He should have worded that part better, too.

 

[Ctclassic]

Here's ANOTHER instructor that has a destorted view on OC.......he lists his 'business' as..................

Concealed Carry Pistol Class
John S. Oswecki, instructor
860.966.1724

Here is his response to my inquiry to the title of his class.............

Hello Craig I know there is no law on the books in Ct that the firearm has to be concealed, the problem is if you walk around with your firearm out in full view you will more than likely run into problems of some sort. This state is not like Utah or other states that are more gun friendly. As far as the name I am not implying that Ct is a concealed carry state as I tell my students there is no law on the books that the firearm needs to be concealed it's just better idea to avoid an issue. I hope this answered your question.

Thank you
John



......No John, it really doesn't

 

[KIX]

KIX----
" The NRA course for a permit is "BASIC PISTOL SAFETY", nothing about law whatsoever"

Do you mean to say, that when you teach a class you don't discuss the ramafacations from someone who doesn't store a handgun properly and a child is in the house.

Again, bad argument.

We do discuss child safety. Part of the Basic Pistol Safety course is...... here's the key word.... safety! There is no need to go into the obvious ramifications..... just like I don't need to be educated as to the ramifications on what happens if I intentionally drive my Altima into a preschool playground running over children while listening to gangsta rap, smoking a blunt and texting. It's obvious that people are responsible for their own common sense actions.

The course is a requirement (or something similar). If we had to cover law, getting a permit in this state would cost at least double so we could have an attorney in each class.

Jonathan

 

[Ctclassic]

Well, I guess I just have accept the fact that things have changed since I was issued my permit. I remember being 'briefed' on numerous laws during the class. NOW MAYBE, it was because the instructor was either a retired or active state trooper at the time, ( 26 years ago ). Not sure.


I will go back to the time consuming task at hand, calling out all applicable instructors that have the notion that CT is a CC state.

 

[KIX]

A fair amount of instructors are. Many also say it just so they don't have to hear their students are getting busted.

I let them know what the law says, what the climate is and go from there.

Like a driving course, you need to let them know the rules of the road and some laws cross over into basic driving skills.

Gun safety is no different in that area. However, I think the responsibility does fall on the individual to learn those laws.

It would be nice if we had either a CT gun law book, or classes for those that carry and would like to learn the law issues. I am working on writing a book and having it lawyer reviewed. I know there is no money in it really, but it would be nice to have the law broken down into plain language on some of these issues.

Jonathan

 

[Rich B]

I am still unsure why this argument is still occurring on this thread.

We all understand now what is to be expected of NRA instructors (not much), however there are instructors who are educating students incorrectly. And they need to be fixed.

That is what this thread is about. If someone would like to try and tell instructors to stop discussing laws at all, be my guest, but I don't think that is going to go well, nor do I agree with it.

You don't need to be a lawyer to see that OC is as legal as CC is in this state.

 

[Rich B]

May need to get more information on this one:

http://www.ctgunclass.com/CT_Firearm_Law.php

 

[KIX]

I'm thinking about working something out with a lawyer heavily versed in these matters as well.

Could be worthwhile attending though.

Jonathan

 

[MKEgal]

Just checked on Valley Firearms site and seems he's made an adjustment to his words... http://www.valleyfirearms.com/nra.html

But he's still giving out misinformation:
http://www.valleyfirearms.com/faq.html

Does my CPP allow me to carry a firearm in any state other than Connecticut?
In general, no. However, there are many states that offer non-resident carry permits.

According to www.handgunlaw.us
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USReciprocity.pdf
16 states honor a CT permit (including the 3 true Constitutional Carry states).

No, carry laws are not addressed in the Basic Pistol class.
Yes, we're dissuaded from explaining or interpreting laws, in part because of misinformation & opinion as shown on the sites in question.

I plan to give my students a sheet with links to the new WI cc law, a WI.gov page to look up the text of laws, & numbers of specific statutes discussing important issues (self-defense, school zone, trespass, etc.).

I have no problem saying "this is what I understand the law to say", but will follow it up with "here's where you can go read it yourself" and/or "check with a lawyer".

 

[Punisher]

Hi everyone, just joined and wanted to let you know that I also wrote to The Outpost gun shop in Uncasville and they have yet to reply to me.

 

[Ctclassic]

Hey Punisher, welcome to the site. Thanks for taking the time to shoot (pun intended) The Outpost and email, but I would caution you not to hold your breath for a reply, because I haven't recieved one yet either ( 2nd try ). I did however get one the first time I wrote him about a month ago, and basically told me he didn't think he should have to change the wording because he felt it woulds scare his students (or something along those lines).

There is alot of info on here to digest, so don't get discouraged and feel like you've got in over your head. There will always be someone on here to answer any questions you may have.----------------------

 

[beanoboy7]

Hey Punisher, welcome to the site. Thanks for taking the time to shoot (pun intended) The Outpost and email, but I would caution you not to hold your breath for a reply, because I haven't recieved one yet either ( 2nd try ). I did however get one the first time I wrote him about a month ago, and basically told me he didn't think he should have to change the wording because he felt it woulds scare his students (or something along those lines).

There is alot of info on here to digest, so don't get discouraged and feel like you've got in over your head. There will always be someone on here to answer any questions you may have.----------------------

I think it's time to plant a CCDL member or two in his course, and debate with the instructor. Should be fun

 

[Ctclassic]

beanoboy, I think maybe if this guy doesn't react/respond to our collective efforts in changing his wording, then I think I'll ask Scott to consider removing The Outpost Guns ans Ammo from the CCDL website 'friends of CCDL link'.


I've also actually entertained the thought of staging some sort of a public display out in front of his store i.e. signage, etc. to communicate his misleading/misinforming his students. What do you guys/gals think?

 

[Rich B]

Mr. Gallup has not done his research...

Mr. Gallup answers:

Explain that to the number of permit holders that have been arrested and or had complaints filed against them for exposing their firearm.

Whoops. Your ignorance is showing...

My reply:

Mr. Gallup,
Could you please name one conviction? Can you quote a statute that even mentions concealment (as your website infers)? What crime would you be arrested for if you were to open carry (as I am doing right now in public)?

I can name three incidents:
- Goldberg (charges nolled, permit reinstated, federal lawsuit in 2nd circuit court of appeals).
- Sultan (Unfortunately plead AR, permit reinstated, police admonished for their behavior by BFPE).
- Me (Charges dismissed (no probable cause), permit never lost, federal 1983 civil suit filed)

Are you telling me that you believe that the police make the law? Or does the legislature make the law?

Do you teach according to the law or the opinions of a minority of LEOs?

Please reconsider your stance.
-Rich Burgess
Ph: 203.208.9577

Mr. Gallup replies:

Mr Burgess,

I tell my students that there are consequences to carrying openly in public as you have plainly outlined in the 3 cases you mention. While charges may have been dismissed there were still arrests and loss of permits that had to be reinstated. A hassle most people I know would gladly avoid. I teach according to the law but as you have documented, interpretation of the law is arbitrary and inconsistent among law enforcement officers. While the LEO's you mention are indeed a minority, they still are a presence to contend with. My desire is not to confront them or challenge their beliefs but to protect my family and myself by engaging in my Constitutional Rights. If carrying concealed accomplishes that objective then I'll conceal my weapon. Thank you for you input. I value your opinion as a fellow American. Have a great day sir.

My reply:

Mr. Gallup,
You are teaching other people your personal beliefs tempered with your own fears, not the law. That is being subjective, not objective.

A large portion of the reason that so many people believe open carry is illegal in this state (including LEOs) is because of instructors and other people speaking as authorities and spreading misinformation. You are teaching misinformation.

I asked you for a conviction or a citation of the statutes that support the following:

There is no law in Connecticut mandating the gun be carried concealed, HOWEVER, it is stated that if it is carried in plain view, and it causes complaint or alarm, your permit to carry can be jeopardized. For this reason it is recommended any firearms be carried concealed and out of plain view.

We have established that you are incapable of providing that citation by your omission of that citation. I am not asking for anything outside your reach. Simply the retraction of the above statement (the BFPE, DPS and the OLR all disagree with you), and for you to teach an honest class based on the actual laws of this state from now on.

Instead, you are purposely stating false information. I can assure you that it is causing problems 'in the field'. We have ignorant people saying ignorant things because they were taught lies in their NRA instruction classes.

If you had looked into my case or the Goldberg case I mentioned previously, you would know that both 'complaints' came from experienced permit holders asking about the law because they were taught that OC is illegal in CT. In the Goldberg case, he was carrying concealed and another permit holder noticed his firearm and called the police. Is that the future you wish upon your students? Or would you like to get the word out and educate people?

Your actions are harming people, and they are harming the community and our rights.

I once again call on you to do the honest and right thing and teach the law, not opinion. I am calling on you to be part of the solution. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of what?

Thank you,
Rich Burgess

 

[KIX]

Wow.

All I have on that last one.

Wow!

Jonathan

 

[Rich B]

More from Mr. Gallup:

Mr. Burgess,

I teach my students there are choices and that there are responsibilities that go with those choices. If you read my statement and not in between the lines or attempt to put word in my mouth then you would see my goal it to make people aware of what their responsibilities are. I have made no claims of convictions and you yourself have been victim of false actions as a result of allowing your weapon to be exposed. Just a point, I don't teach the law. I leave that to the lawyers and judges. I just make people aware of what the laws are and what some of the consequences have been for people like us who choose to take advantage of our Second Amendment rights. Once again, I thank you for your input and your opinion. As an American you certainly have the right to voice them. I think it's safe to say that we will have to agree to disagree. I make no changes in my stance on carrying concealed or in the belief that have a responsibility to make sure my students know what their choices and responsibilities are.

Mr. Gallup

Very sad. So he is knowingly providing false information to his students.

I would not be comfortable with lying to my students.

My (final?) reply:

Mr. Gallup,
You keep saying you teach your students 'choice'. But according to your site and your statements in these emails, you do not. You teach concealment. That is 50% of the carry choices you have in this state. You are shortchanging your students by not teaching them correctly.

I asked you to cite your source on where this line comes from:

There is no law in Connecticut mandating the gun be carried concealed, HOWEVER, it is stated that if it is carried in plain view, and it causes complaint or alarm, your permit to carry can be jeopardized. For this reason it is recommended any firearms be carried concealed and out of plain view.

You have refused to cite the source (and I have informed you that you are 100% wrong), and you have stated that you will continue to lie to your students and keep this information posted. That is very sad.

It is interesting that in this state we have so many more problems with supposed 2A 'supporters' spreading misinformation and outright lies to people than the police or anti-rights people. We hear the same thing all the time. "If you carry your gun in the open, an anti-gun liberal will freak out and call the police". I can tell you that it is far more common for people who 'support' the right to call. Usually because of instructors (like you) who knowingly gave them false information on their choices.

When someone knowingly gives another person false information, I call that 'lying'.

-Rich Burgess
Ph: 203.208.9577

 

[Ctclassic]

Well done Rich, I dropped him an email yesterday as well.

 

[KIX]

It's times like this I'm glad Ed and myself were in the room during the Sultan BFPE hearing. At least I can give someone the audio. If they listen to it and still decide that it is a possible revocation of a permit, then they are just delusional.

Jonathan
NRA Instructor that need not be contacted on our right and choice to open carry!

 

[Ctclassic]

Kudos to everyone that made this happen...................................http://outpostgunsandammo.com/content/pistol_permit_classes_outpost_guns_ammo.asp


Goes to show that what WE all do IS making a difference!!



Now, to shoot him an email of thanks.


Craig