Your thoughts on the Washington Arms Collectors

[Bill Starks]

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Email address and details on the incident?

Which email address do you want? Poosharker or WAC board of directors?
The incident is what I described above.

 

[Trigger Dr]

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WAC grants a free membership to Active Duty military. I wonder if it is the full or associate membership for those under 21. This could be a pry bar to open it up a bit.

 

[Metalhead47]

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Quick thread jack here...

I'm gonna be going thru Monroe this sat & heard they're doing the show at the fairground that weekend. Bout how big is it usually? I'd like to stop by, but by the time I get out that way they'll only be open for a couple more hours.

 

[Trigger Dr]

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The Monroe show is about 40% of the Puyallup show, and 2 hours should be enough time to see the whole thing.



Pooshaker, you need to write a complaint to WAC also.

 

[Bill Starks]

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Trigger Dr wrote:

WAC grants a free membership to Active Duty military. I wonder if it is the full or associate membership for those under 21. This could be a pry bar to open it up a bit.

Under 21 is an associate membership.....

The Monroe show is about 40% of the Puyallup show, and 2 hours should be enough time to see the whole thing.

I'll be there this weekend with the Open Carry table. Look for the color banner.

 

[OrangeIsTrouble]

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Trigger Dr wrote:

Pooshaker, you need to write a complaint to WAC also.

Been on it, but having trouble since M1 covered everything in his letter.

 

[waterfowl woody]

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SpyderTattoo wrote:

If you've seen the things that I've seen happen at the gun show, you wouldn't be so hasty. I've been swept by loaded guns out at the tie table many times. These rules are in place for safety because there are lots of people unholstering their weapons at the gate. In normal public places, no one is unholstering.

If you don't like the rules, don't come... :? So what? You have your opinion. It is what it is.

I can't believe a gun owner would say what you did, yet a gun rights supporter! The last paragraph you wrote should never be said on any gun rights forum because that is exactly what we all are here for. Its people with that attitude that made all the retarded laws about guns.

WAC is making everybody break the law right before disarming them. Idiots. If they just followed the law then unholstering firearms and sweeping scares would stop. This club took the time and energy to make sure people coming to a GUN SHOW dont have the right to bear arms. how about instead of disarming responsible AMERICANS with your made up rules why dont you just enforce the real laws.If a person grabs or removes there weapon from there holsterin public then they get removed.WAC your are now worse then the government! CONGRATS.boycott comes to mind. let this slide and what comes next, WAC makes its own tax at there shows.

 

[gogodawgs]

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waterfowl woody wrote:

SpyderTattoo wrote:

If you've seen the things that I've seen happen at the gun show, you wouldn't be so hasty. I've been swept by loaded guns out at the tie table many times. These rules are in place for safety because there are lots of people unholstering their weapons at the gate. In normal public places, no one is unholstering.

If you don't like the rules, don't come... :? So what? You have your opinion. It is what it is.

I can't believe a gun owner would say what you did, yet a gun rights supporter! The last paragraph you wrote should never be said on any gun rights forum because that is exactly what we all are here for. Its people with that attitude that made all the retarded laws about guns.

WAC is making everybody break the law right before disarming them. Idiots. If they just followed the law then unholstering firearms and sweeping scares would stop. This club took the time and energy to make sure people coming to a GUN SHOW dont have the right to bear arms. how about instead of disarming responsible AMERICANS with your made up rules why dont you just enforce the real laws.If a person grabs or removes there weapon from there holsterin public then they get removed.WAC your are now worse then the government! CONGRATS.boycott comes to mind. let this slide and what comes next, WAC makes its own tax at there shows.

With all due respect woody,

Your comments are off base, inaccurate and demonstrates your lack of knowledge on the subject.

WAC is making no one break the law. Explain your false assertion.

Perhaps you should attend a show and meet those of us that are defending firearms rights and stop criticising in your cowardly way.

 

[waterfowl woody]

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do you have people with there firearms in hand loaded in public because they are being stripped of there rights at the door? unloading with muzzles pointing in direction of people? so you are the one that needs education my friend!! but thanks for going public with more stupid comments. I have been to WAC shows and my opinion stands as its WRONG!!!!!! If your getting frustrated with your anti-gun rights gun show I can understand. If your opinion is that the rule of NO FIREARMS is correct then why are you a member of OC? Im sure you will come at me with more macho remarks instead of justifing your beliefs of NO FIREARMS! By the way I am fighting for my rights, it just sucks to have to do it against a GUN organization.

 

[BigDave]

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Well not all of Woody's comments are that far off base.
I do not know where the illegal issue comes in but asked yourself.

If a City or County was to asked you to do the same would you?
If you were to shop in a store with the same rules would you spend you money there?
Do you feel being disarmed rubs you the wrong way?
Is it not the mind set of the anti gun group of forcing their views upon others as they know no better?
Is the attitude of only a few know how to properly handle firearms and thus you cannot carry a loaded weapon holstered?

Here is the kicker, listed on the WAC website as their statement for support for the Right To Keep and Bear Arms.

The Washington Arms Collectors is based on the principles set forth by the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution and article 1, section 24 of the constitution of the State of Washington. The Legislative news pages have alerts and news that Club leaders and membership may find useful in understanding the current events that impact our rights and responsibilities.

What part of Shall Not Be Infringed does WAC not understand? Are they not supporting a privileged class ? as only security or law enforcement and no one else can be trusted?

If they are pointing (sweeping} a barrel across someone then they are breaking the law in RCW 9.41.270, show them the door and trespass them, pretty simple.

And you know it is what it is as there are other gun shows that do not restrict your rights in exchange for entry.

 

[gogodawgs]

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waterfowl woody wrote:

do you have people with there firearms in hand loaded in public because they are being stripped of there rights at the door? unloading with muzzles pointing in direction of people? so you are the one that needs education my friend!! but thanks for going public with more stupid comments. I have been to WAC shows and my opinion stands as its WRONG!!!!!! If your getting frustrated with your anti-gun rights gun show I can understand. If your opinion is that the rule of NO FIREARMS is correct then why are you a member of OC? Im sure you will come at me with more macho remarks instead of justifing your beliefs of NO FIREARMS! By the way I am fighting for my rights, it just sucks to have to do it against a GUN organization.

There is not one stupid comment or macho remark. Sir, your ignorant tirade demonstrates your absolute silliness on the issue.

The rules of the WAC are known ahead of time, they are posted on their WAC website and in several large signs before coming to the table to tie the action. Therefore, no one is required to handle their loaded firearm in public. You can leave your house or your car in the parking lot without doing so infront of a large group of people. Your assertion is proven incorrect.

For those who, like myself, insist on being armed to the door, WAC provides a tube to unload. Simple safety rules and the knowledge where my muzzle is at all times allows me to unload safety. Unfortunately there are many people with varying degrees of gun safety knowledge who come to such a large show. There are people who do not demomstrate their safety knowledge when they unload, even though there are signs and assistance for them to do so in a safe manner.

There is no rule of "NO FIREARMS" as you put it, the rule is no loaded firearms. As I stated there is a large degree of firearms knowledge at such a large show. Again your assertion is proven incorrect. Neither are your 'rights' being stripped. Your entering private property for a voluntary event. Only government can strip your rights.

What rights are you figting for? Which cities, county's or government officials have you written to expand the rights of all citizens? Simply complaining about a private organization is not fighting for rights.

waterfowl woody wrote:

WAC is making everybody break the law right before disarming them.

And again, answer the question instead of calling me stupid and macho, what law is WAC 'making everybody' break?

(Perhaps you can reply without calling anyone names, demeaning them or using questionable language)

 

[waterfowl woody]

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you said it yourself . there is a unloading tube outside. that means people take there loaded guns out of there holster in public.

I am going to end there because you will get lost. good luck

 

[1245A Defender]

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waterfowl woody wrote:

you said it yourself . there is a unloading tube outside. that means people take there loaded guns out of there holster in public.

I am going to end there because you will get lost. good luck

it is NOT illegal to handle a firearm in public!
it is NOT dangerous to handle a firearm in public!

 

[gogodawgs]

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1245A Defender wrote:

waterfowl woody wrote:

you said it yourself . there is a unloading tube outside. that means people take there loaded guns out of there holster in public.

I am going to end there because you will get lost. good luck

it is NOT illegal to handle a firearm in public!
it is NOT dangerous to handle a firearm in public!

Correct, it is not illegal. This would be a prime example of a 'manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place' where handling a firearm is completely expected and therefore legal. I continue to see, woody, that you attempt to insult and smear instead of backing up your assertions with fact, laws, court cases or anything other than your opinion.

RCW 9.41.270

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

 

[gogodawgs]

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BigDave wrote:

Well not all of Woody's comments are that far off base.
I do not know where the illegal issue comes in but asked yourself. The basic premise of the legality is off base. Furthermore, this is a private entity not a goverment entity.

If a City or County was to asked you to do the same would you? No, (remember WAC is private)
If you were to shop in a store with the same rules would you spend you money there? I do, the mall and Costco are two that I shop at and conceal. The 'same rule's' do not exist in any store.
Do you feel being disarmed rubs you the wrong way? It does, however, in a very large gunshow it also rubs me the wrong way that there are a large spectrum of people whose safety skills are suspect. Again, because of the size and nature of the WAC shows a unique set of circumstances exists.
Is it not the mind set of the anti gun group of forcing their views upon others as they know no better?Sure, but anti gun groups don't have 'Gun Shows'
Is the attitude of only a few know how to properly handle firearms and thus you cannot carry a loaded weapon holstered? Would you like to be in a large room with 1000 people all handling loaded weapons all with varying skills? Is safety a concern? If 999 are great and safe, only one person in this circumstance and manner can have a very negative effect on all gun owners and gun shows.

Here is the kicker, listed on the WAC website as their statement for support for the Right To Keep and Bear Arms. Does this trump private property rights or free association?

The Washington Arms Collectors is based on the principles set forth by the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution and article 1, section 24 of the constitution of the State of Washington. The Legislative news pages have alerts and news that Club leaders and membership may find useful in understanding the current events that impact our rights and responsibilities.

What part of Shall Not Be Infringed does WAC not understand? Are they not supporting a privileged class ? as only security or law enforcement and no one else can be trusted? Only government can 'infringe' upon a right.

If they are pointing (sweeping} a barrel across someone then they are breaking the law in RCW 9.41.270, show them the door and trespass them, pretty simple.

And you know it is what it is as there are other gun shows that do not restrict your rights in exchange for entry.

Dave,

Your thoughts are excellent in this regard. However, WAC, a private entity, has full rights and authority to set rules for attendance to their private events. I personally do not want to be in the room with 1000 people whom have varying degrees of firearms experience and have loaded firearms. Smaller shows are fine for that setting, but large shows it is just not appropriate. Do I like being disarmed. NO. Am I disarmed at a WAC show? I have my firearm, my empty magazine and my loose rounds in my pocket. I am armed, although a few steps away from immediate effectiveness.

 

[BigDave]

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gogodawgs wrote:

1245A Defender wrote:

waterfowl woody wrote:

you said it yourself . there is a unloading tube outside. that means people take there loaded guns out of there holster in public.

I am going to end there because you will get lost. good luck

it is NOT illegal to handle a firearm in public!
it is NOT dangerous to handle a firearm in public!

Correct, it is not illegal. This would be a prime example of a 'manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place' where handling a firearm is completely expected and therefore legal. I continue to see, woody, that you attempt to insult and smear instead of backing up your assertions with fact, laws, court cases or anything other than your opinion.

RCW 9.41.270

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

gogodawgs and defender you hit the nail on the head it is not illegal to clear your weapon in an area provided for that purpose.

 

[BigDave]

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gogodawgs wrote:

BigDave wrote:

Well not all of Woody's comments are that far off base.
I do not know where the illegal issue comes in but asked yourself. The basic premise of the legality is off base. Furthermore, this is a private entity not a goverment entity.

If a City or County was to asked you to do the same would you? No, (remember WAC is private)
If you were to shop in a store with the same rules would you spend you money there? I do, the mall and Costco are two that I shop at and conceal. The 'same rule's' do not exist in any store.
Do you feel being disarmed rubs you the wrong way? It does, however, in a very large gunshow it also rubs me the wrong way that there are a large spectrum of people whose safety skills are suspect. Again, because of the size and nature of the WAC shows a unique set of circumstances exists.
Is it not the mind set of the anti gun group of forcing their views upon others as they know no better?Sure, but anti gun groups don't have 'Gun Shows'
Is the attitude of only a few know how to properly handle firearms and thus you cannot carry a loaded weapon holstered? Would you like to be in a large room with 1000 people all handling loaded weapons all with varying skills? Is safety a concern? If 999 are great and safe, only one person in this circumstance and manner can have a very negative effect on all gun owners and gun shows.

Here is the kicker, listed on the WAC website as their statement for support for the Right To Keep and Bear Arms. Does this trump private property rights or free association?

The Washington Arms Collectors is based on the principles set forth by the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution and article 1, section 24 of the constitution of the State of Washington. The Legislative news pages have alerts and news that Club leaders and membership may find useful in understanding the current events that impact our rights and responsibilities.

What part of Shall Not Be Infringed does WAC not understand? Are they not supporting a privileged class ? as only security or law enforcement and no one else can be trusted? Only government can 'infringe' upon a right.

If they are pointing (sweeping} a barrel across someone then they are breaking the law in RCW 9.41.270, show them the door and trespass them, pretty simple.

And you know it is what it is as there are other gun shows that do not restrict your rights in exchange for entry.

Dave,

Your thoughts are excellent in this regard. However, WAC, a private entity, has full rights and authority to set rules for attendance to their private events. I personally do not want to be in the room with 1000 people whom have varying degrees of firearms experience and have loaded firearms. Smaller shows are fine for that setting, but large shows it is just not appropriate. Do I like being disarmed. NO. Am I disarmed at a WAC show? I have my firearm, my empty magazine and my loose rounds in my pocket. I am armed, although a few steps away from immediate effectiveness.

There is no doubt the WAC is a private entity and I was not trying to imply it would not be, the comparison as to the Government entity is that how upset and rightfully so we become when a city or county does the same thing as it infringes upon our right to bear arms.

In essence as many have stated on this forum and others how it also upsets so many when a store asked one to leave to disarm or just leave, they are a private entity and even you admitted to concealed carry in those stores you know prohibit weapons possession but comply with WAC restrictions, how is this different then a WAC gun show legal wise? None.

By the way I carry everywhere I can legally including Malls and Stores with policies restricting firearms and the reason being, what other right do we have that prohibits our right to free speech, religion .... Why do we accept anything less for the 2nd Amendment?

Having all those people handling loaded firearms, just so we are clear that would that be holstered or on the tables?
If they are holstered weapons then it would warrant alarm for the safety of other persons and thus in violation of RCW 9.41.270(1) Cited or arrested depending upon the violation to being told to leave and being banned.

Handling loaded weapons is an issue, note all the weapons on the tables are required to be unloaded as they would be in any gun store and not allowing the barrel to cross another person could also be a rule by WAC that will get you thrown out and banned.
This would not infringe upon anyone's rights to bear arms.

If you think about it, having your gun holstered and zip tied with out a magazine and those magazines have to be unloaded is worse then CALIFORNIA, really think about that.

This is just food for thought I am not trying to talk anyone in not going to their shows but they could do things better and not infringe upon our right for protection.

 

[BigDave]

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What do you think about Judge Napolitano, Legal annalist for Fox.

Where Private Businesses are Public Accommodations and invites the public to come on to its property and the public does not shed any of their constitutional rights in doing so.

50 seconds in the video, remember the Starbucks issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP1Wgkh5MeE&feature=player_embedded

 

[gogodawgs]

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BigDave wrote:

What do you think about Judge Napolitano, Legal annalist for Fox.

Where Private Businesses are Public Accommodations and invites the public to come on to its property and the public does not shed any of their constitutional rights in doing so.

50 seconds in the video, remember the Starbucks issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP1Wgkh5MeE&feature=player_embedded

I studied Constitutional Law in college. I specifically studied 1st amendment law. The concept of 'public accomodation' and constitutional rights are something I have argued for all along. I agree with Judge Napolitano on his interpretation of the issue, and after McDonald, incorporation and many other lawsuits I believe we will see holstered firearms protected the same as we see a political conversation protected in a business that is clearly open to the public.

I know that the property rights purists will disagree, but they fail to differentiate between different properties; Private (abode), Public (government owned), Business (private with no public interaction, think warehouse, etc) and Businees (open to the public and requires public accomodation, from ADA rules to 1st and 2nd amendment protections)

 

[Metalhead47]

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Trigger Dr wrote:

The Monroe show is about 40% of the Puyallup show, and 2 hours should be enough time to see the whole thing.

 

Non-members may not have a firearm with them at all, even unloaded, correct?

If I happen to find something my wife just can't live without, can I sign up right there with my CPL/C&R?