A Peace Officer's Perspective

[TriCityOC]

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I recently started my own blog to cronicle and share my open carry experiences.Since I'm on the same site as this LEO I took the opportunity to "blog back." Here are my $0.02

http://opencarrywashington.blogspot.com/is my blog if anyone cares to visit.

Some people, like the blog linked above, view open carry of handguns as a tactical mistake. They argue that to carry openly gives away the element of surprise and undermines your tactical advantage in a crisis. Proponents of open carry cite the deterrent factor that a visible handgun creates. So which is it? I say it is both.

Both are true, and if either camp thought logically about the arguments of the other they would see that these ideas are not mutually exclusive. This is why no one ever wins these arguments, because both of these statements are true. The real question that people are trying to answer is which strategy is better: concealed carry or open carry? The answer depends on what your goal is in carrying a weapon.

If you want a tactical advantage in a crisis situation, if you want to be able to get the drop on some unsuspecting bad guy and punch some holes in his dream of criminal stardom, then by all means conceal your firearm. No one will hassle you going into stores or banks, police officers won't stop you to ask you questions, and when life goes sideways during your morning stop at the quickie mart you can take action and get your "I-got-the-drop-on-the-bad-guy-and-then-dropped-him merit badge."

If on the other hand your goal is self-defense and prevention of violence then open carry is the way to go. The Regan strategy of "peace through strength" worked with the Soviets and it will work in your local quickie mart. The bad guy looking to take down the cash drawer at the gas and go isn't interested in a gun fight, he is looking for some quick cash and a quick drug score. He is a predator, and like all predators is looking for the limping, lame and lazy. There is a reason that lions don't eat tigers, and it is the same reason that the quickie mart isn't likely to get robbed while a man with a securely holstered firearm is standing in line. The boldness of that display denotes confidence and strength, a willingness and ability to protect oneself and surroundings.

So in conclusion, if you want to get the chance to shoot a bad guy conceal your firearm so you look just like any other potential victim. If you never want to use your firearm but instead only want to prevent violence and protect yourself and those you care about...speak softly and carry a big stick.

Joshua

 

[Grapeshot]

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TriCityOC wrote:

snip......So in conclusion, if you want to get the chance to shoot a bad guy conceal your firearm so you look just like any other potential victim. If you never want to use your firearm but instead only want to prevent violence and protect yourself and those you care about...speak softly and carry a big stick.

Joshua

Since you are probably going to get jumped on for that, I'll go ahead and do it TriCity Josh 'cause I'll do it nice.

I doubt that many if any CCers conceal just so that they can get a shot at a BG. They are not looking for trouble; most would rather avoid it if humanly possible. In some states, you would not have the option of OCing even if you wanted to do so - Florida is a good example of a pro state where OC is illegal generally.

The myth of the OCer being preemptively taken out is just that - a myth, a what if senerio. The challange of "show me" has been made repetitiously - no taker, no cite, no go.

OC does put the BG on notice that you are prepared to defend in the strongest terms, if he notices it. OC is not for the timid or faint of heart.

Yata hey

 

[jrwalker]

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Tactical, not tactical. Deterent, no deterent.

Whether you want to OC or CC, I don't care. I OC because I want to stand up for my rights. If you're a spineless person that just wants to bend over to the government, you're a fool. You comply with their "rules" of gettinga permit to conceal carry and think you are standing up for your 2A rights; BS, you're not. Yeah, it may not be THAT big of a deal to take a class and get a permit... :arrow::uhoh:"The law is not that bad, at least we still have the option to carry..." :banghead:Well where do you draw the line? The government has been allowed to slowly but surely take our rights away and something needs to be done to tell them they are out of line. Government and Law Enforcement needs a swift kick in the nuts to put them back in their place; i.e.OUR servant. NOT the other way around. :cuss:

All in all, I OC totell the government I WILL NOT give up my country to them.

Edit: This is not directed at anyone specifically. I don't know anyone with that "lay down" mentality about the government (THANK GOD!), but I know those types of people are out there.

 

[TriCityOC]

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Quite right, no (ok well almost no) CCers are out looking for a fight. Please forgive my hyperbole in the attempt to make my point. But CC, IMHO increases the chances that a person will actually need to use their weapon. A fact that I think most people who CC have never considered. That is the point that I was making. Hopefully the exageration will not cause contention where none is due. I know that most CCers like OCers are peaceful law abiding citizens looking to exercise their 2a rights and protect themselves and those they care about.

I just don't get those that talk about the "element of surprise." I would rather not need to use my weapon that be able to deploy it with stealth.

I apologize in advance for any CCer that might be offended by my statements, that was not my intent. I'm just trying to point out that the tactical advantage of surprise in a gun fight is outweighed by the tactical advantage of not being in one to start with.

Speak softly and carry a big stick...

 

[Theseus]

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TriCityOC wrote:

Quite right, no (ok well almost no) CCers are out looking for a fight. Please forgive my hyperbole in the attempt to make my point. But CC, IMHO increases the chances that a person will actually need to use their weapon. A fact that I think most people who CC have never considered. That is the point that I was making. Hopefully the exageration will not cause contention where none is due. I know that most CCers like OCers are peaceful law abiding citizens looking to exercise their 2a rights and protect themselves and those they care about.

I just don't get those that talk about the "element of surprise." I would rather not need to use my weapon that be able to deploy it with stealth.

I apologize in advance for any CCer that might be offended by my statements, that was not my intent. I'm just trying to point out that the tactical advantage of surprise in a gun fight is outweighed by the tactical advantage of not being in one to start with.

Speak softly and carry a big stick...

I don't believe that CC will increase the chance that they might need to use it. It may be a higher chance than an OC'er, but having the gun CC in itself does not make a person more likely to need it.

One thing I know for certain here is that OC does have an increased chance of police harassment. . . so much for not breaking the law being good enough to stay out of trouble.

 

[Mack 12ga.]

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FunkTrooper wrote:

Found this while browsing the internet.

OPEN CARRY- http://roavapd.blogspot.com/2009/02/open-carry.html
Open carry is legal in Virginia. I haven't seen much of it. There are restrictions on where you can possess firearms in Virginia, open or concealed, you should know these.

My reaction while on duty would be based on the context. In the high crime, high drug areas where I work, if I saw someone open carrying a gun I would stop and identify them. We have too many shots fired calls in some areas to ignore anyone with a gun.

If I saw some guy planting a tree in his yard, or eating dinner in a restaurant while open carrying I wouldn't blink.

I think open carry can help demystify some of the negative perceptions people have of guns. Most of the people around us when we are carry concealed have no idea they are being protected. They also don't realize there's a gun there and it's not just "going off" and killing everyone. If they see it when you open carry they will realize that most gun owners aren't mass murderers.

Tactically though I don't like open carry. If you walk into 7-11 the guy standing in line may be planning on robbing the place. With you there he knows he needs to shoot you first and remove you from the equation. He's got the drop on you and surprise is on his side. Or maybe he wants to disarm you. Even with Level 3 retention holsters (lots of safeties in the holster to hold onto the gun) some cops get disarmed every year, there's just no way to guarantee not being disarmed. Concealed carry is much safer in this regard. If you do it right, nobody knows you have it. You have the element of surprise on your side if anything breaks sideways on you.

In closing, be mindful of your surroundings when you do open carry. Some cops may be very curious about you, especially depending on where you are. Watch your back in places with a high likelihood of being robbed.

This cop has a great outlook for OC’ers, although I do believe he’s wrong about an open carried handgun making you a target to criminals a lot of what he says makes sense.

You talk as if there is going to only be one guy open carrying, now lets take your scenario and add say 3 more people in where ever, that are open carrying, our purpose here is to promote open carry so that more responsible persons carry openly.

I look forward to the day where at least 1/4 of the population is carrying openly, and to see crime plummet. because the bad guys are to scared to bother us any more. The more that we open carry the more others like us will start, the only reason a lot of folks don't is law enforcement and public opinion has instilled in the general public that its against the law. when I talk to people out on the street the first thing theyask is "isn't that against the law" or " do you have a permit for that" or "how do you get a permit for that" ( that being a gun ) and they are surprised when i tell them its legal and no permit needed unless you carry concealed.

I believe when any bad guy walks into a 7/11 and you have 2-3 peaple in line with side arms or others still out side fueling they will not bother. of course you will always have the exeption to the rules and will still have times when you must defend your self. but going around worring about what ifs is not the reson to not openly carry. And if i ever getdisarmed i'll do whatevery one else will dofight for mylife and win!

 

[SouthernBoy]

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I first entered the fray of OC'ing a little over two years ago.. cautiously and self-consciously at first. It took a little bit before I was really comfortable with it. I still CC when the want and need arises, but OC quickly took over as my primary mode of carry. And I soon discovered a host of good reasons for OC'ing which have all pretty much been covered on these forums. However for me, one positive fact regarding OC'ing stands out for me and I don't think anyone has discussed this one.

My knees prevent me from fighting like I used to be able to do, and also from running away from danger. When CC'ing, I look just like anyone else who might be a potential target of a BG. But when I OC, my little friend kinda speaks silently for me and sends out a warning of what could follow. Since I cannot move as I once was able, I like the fact that my sidearm says, "Not this guy.. leave him alone".

 

[Grapeshot]

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Theseus wrote:

I don't believe that CC will increase the chance that they might need to use it. It may be a higher chance than an OC'er, but having the gun CC in itself does not make a person more likely to need it.

One thing I know for certain here is that OC does have an increased chance of police harassment. . . so much for not breaking the law being good enough to stay out of trouble.

Having a gun does pointedly increase your chance of being able to use it, if left with no other choice.

OC is obviously more noticeable and may attract more unwanted LEO attention. Here in Va. that is fast becoming less and less of an issue.

In Kalifornia, OC is less than it is in most states and other laws and the misapplication of them would seem to make you more vulnerable to such harassment. No personal insult intended, but I wouldn't live there on a bet - though I think some areas are beautiful.

Yata hey

 

[SlackwareRobert]

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Then you add the interviews with the crooks, (convicted ones, not the one we know & love),
And they all say they fear armed citizens more than cops, as they know the cops
have to identify and arrest.

But if the OC'r is the first one shot, then why are more bank tellers shot than the guards?

If i'm in that bad of a neighborhood, there is no way i'm not packing.
DC laws be damned. :X
How can a neighborhood be so full of bad guys and you can't make an arrest?

But the problem that needs to be fixed is with the parole board, harass them
every time a crook is let out and commits a crime. Stop them and interrogate
them about what they were thinking, and how much they were bought off for.

They are your enemy not us.
I haven't seen to many on here demanding violent people should be allowed
to walk the streets armed. We don't want them walking the streets period.

It is the "I know you are breaking some law some how" and then making an arrest
that is a major problem. I don't care if a policemen doesn't know every law.
I do care when they make up laws to make an arrest.
Would love an explanation why it agitates so much if you calmly explain a law,
and even ask that they check for themselves if you don't believe me.

 

[TriCityOC]

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All I can tell you is from personal experience as a bastard step child to the LEO community (a Corrections Officer). I was sitting in an open housing unit with about 60 inmates yesterday, and I posed this scenario to several of them while they were playing cards. Universally, the answer was "move one to the next _____ (7-11, store, car, person, etc...) and rob them." They wereall acutely aware of the fact that there are far more sheeple out there that make easy targets. There is no need to take the risk of hitting a more difficult target.

Most violent criminals may have limited education but they do understand a couple of things very well: street survival, and human behavior. Their experience with human behavior tells them that the guy with the gun on his hip is saying to them "I ain't the one you want" and their street survival skills are telling them that he is right.

I asked about this idea of a preemptive strike. They laughed! Murder is a big jump from armed robbery and that isn't what it is about, they want a quick score and out the door. Shooting someone is just going to cause them more trouble than it is worth.

 

[SlackwareRobert]

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And don't forget the financial loss when you have to dump your money
maker now that it's fingerprints are left at the scene.
All that gas money to drive to PA, or VA, find a shady gun show loophole
supporter, then the long drive back home so you can earn a living.
And who do you complain to when the shady dealer sells you a micro stamp
california model?

I would rather OC and worry about crossing paths with that 1 in a million,
add to that he also has to be not noticed another small number, that he
can draw from his sweats faster an even smaller number.
Add to that the wife in car covering my back.....
Nope I'll risk it for the deterence on the other 999,999 bad guys.

 

[Bustelo5%]

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I must add to this since my Pops was an Mp in the Army and I know tons of them,now you cannot OC on base but when you get off base and your in a state that has freedom that is all you want. Just like an OC confrontation when a BG sees someone who is military looking Squid Hair Cut cough I mean high and tight lol,prob some cargo shorts and some old unit tshirt you got from a cook out.The bg will find somewhere else to rob.
The other day at my job which is a compost facility where I do security,my co worker was asked by one of the higher ups of the company what he would do if someone wanted to rob the place,and he said,hell if im unarmed and dont have something to chuck him on the head,he can take what he wants.
That said human nature is universal self preservation is first,if some LEO says that OC is bad tactily then he should go buy an in pants holster for his piece and wear supper baggy clothes maybe a starter jacket ohh yeah I went there some yellow shades and a fifty one fifty hat tilted to the side,then no one will steal his gun because no one has a clue.
and BTW HOOAHHHHH go Lightning

 

[TriCityOC]

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So with all the army talk I was thinking BG stood for Brigadier General. I didn't figure out that you were talking Bad Guy until I was trying to understand why the General was going to rob someone...

 

[WheelGun]

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Bad guys are, almost by definition, cowards.

Good guys have a sense of morality that does not allow them to pick on the weak. They protect the weak. Bad guys prey on the weak.

Carrying a visible firearm sends a signal not to bother anyone in the surroundings of the person carrying the firearm. In criminal psychology it is known as the 'halo effect.'

The BG suddenly drops evil intentions and blends in, even if for the moment.

The effect may last all evening.

Bad guy encounters another OCer tomorrow, and the halo effect comes back for the duration of the next evening.

And so on.

Eventually, the BG sees enough OCers that he starts to realize he needs another line of 'work.'

So he gets a real job and does not need to be a BG anymore.

All because of Open Carry.

 

[Bustelo5%]

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OMG I just just busted out laughing and spit out the water I was drinking thats so amazing,yeah Bad Guys not Brig Generals lol.

 

[KSDeputy]

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On 031192, an FBI agent was killed in a robbery attempt in Kansas City. The agent's name was Stanley Ronquest, Jr. He was assigned to the CID division at headquarters, and was on official business when he was killed in front of his hotel. I am certain the robbers did not know who their intended victim was. I do not know whether he was armed or not, but assume he was. It did stun most of the leo's in this area.

 

[KSDeputy]

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Response to Sandcreek's question on page # 1 above

 

[Bustelo5%]

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What happened when that FBI was shot at,didnt he have back up? What were the circumstances that this happened.Im so sorry that happened that gentleman and ill be praying for his family.

 

[TriCityOC]

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Bustelo5% wrote:

What happened when that FBI was shot at,didnt he have back up? What were the circumstances that this happened.Im so sorry that happened that gentleman and ill be praying for his family.

Looking at the date in the post I'm thinking that this was 11 Mar 1992. Might be a little late for prayers.

 

[Milbars]

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TriCityOC wrote:
If on the other hand your goal is self-defense and prevention of violence then open carry is the way to go. The Regan strategy of "peace through strength" worked with the Soviets and it will work in your local quickie mart.

+1 to this.

After reading this thread, the AT (anti-terrorism) training we get came immediately to mind. I also thought of Regan (thanks Dad). As has been said repeatedly, the BG's thought process is "soft target". He/she wants as little to go wrong in the execution of his/her plan. This is why terrorists will often go after hotels, resorts, bus stops, etc...little to no real security to stop them. Also standard military tactics that have been taught since the dawn of man. Do I attack the "strong" force or the "weak" force? If the OC'er is spotted, this will get the BGto think "how many more could be in there? On to a different spot/day". There are numerous examples out on the intarwebs of citizens who OC and deter crime without even having to unholster.