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AK vs. AR

bigdaddy1

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May 7, 2009
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Southsider der hey
The original AR model was designed to be nearly maintenance free also, but once it went into mass production they cheapend it up. That is when its reputation took a dump. Vietnam soldirs reported mass problems, gummed up this, jammed up that. Then the military figured out that because they cheapend it up they will need to clean it. Cleaning kits were sent to the troops and then the reports of failures dwindled. All this was taken from a show on the military channel.
 

rottman43055

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Sep 9, 2008
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Ohio, ,
AK for me

I sold my AR to buy 2AK's.

As to accuracy, plenty good for combat. I'm positive I could make a head shot at a 100 yards. I do not see needing much farther distance fighting in a neighborhood, but if I need to make a several hundred yard shot, I'd use a bolt action rifle.

I think AK is way superior.

Also if the enemy is behind cover, or small bushes etc, an AK will penetrate it and still get him. A 5.56 will either deflect or simply not penetrate enough.
 
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kwikrnu

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May 14, 2008
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Location
Brentwood, Tennessee
THANKS! Watched the videos, did some research and I'm sold. I got the wifey poo on board, so I got funding. LOL So now it is just finding the best price. We have a gun show coming through in two weeks, and I called my local dealer today to get me a price. Hopefully have one in my hands with in three weeks.
May go ahead and put the Tapco collapsible stock on it too. Debating on the optics though.

I have a tapco collapsible stock and like it.

saiga12.jpg
 

Metalhead47

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Apr 20, 2009
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South Whidbey, Washington, USA
I dont think anyone is disputing the fact that the AR is a superior weapon. It is more complicated, more difficult to use and more exspensive to manufacture also. If the prices were more equal I would consider the AR. Since I can buy 2 AK's, carry case, ammo, bayonette, some more ammo and date a hot russian chick for the price of 1 AR, I will stick with my AK

I will throw in a couple of points for the AR here. The price difference doesn't have to be that much. I think I paid right around $400 for my WASR. The DPMS AR was right around $720, and I only went with that once cuz the $650 Doublestar was sold out.

Wasn't there some issue when the M16 was first issued that the ammo they sent out with it left an extra-sticky residue, contributing to the fouling problems?
 

bigdaddy1

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I will throw in a couple of points for the AR here. The price difference doesn't have to be that much. I think I paid right around $400 for my WASR. The DPMS AR was right around $720, and I only went with that once cuz the $650 Doublestar was sold out.

Wasn't there some issue when the M16 was first issued that the ammo they sent out with it left an extra-sticky residue, contributing to the fouling problems?

I paid $350.00 for my AK. Yes you can shop around and find a cheaper AR style gun, but the average cost is about a grand.

As for the M16, I think the govt said to put in a chromed barrel instead of the original stainless steel one. That and the powder used for mass production ammo.....
 

simmonsjoe

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Nov 1, 2009
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Mattaponi, Virginia, United States
Don't forget the quality point of the firearm.

A $700 AK against a $700 AR, AK wins simply because it is a high quality AK.

You want a high quality AR your gonna have to pay $1,500~.

Price point is very important to many of us. If price is not important, than a lightweight AR is going to win almost anyone's vote.


BTW I really want a Siaga 12.
 
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slowfiveoh

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Sep 15, 2009
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Richmond, VA
I realize the economy is bad right now, but the only point of any meaningful contention whatsoever is the price focus you guys are throwing at it.

Save 400 more dollars. Put it in your piggybank.

End up with a vastly superior firearm.
 

bigdaddy1

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The Military Channel just repeeted the show last night. They compared the 2 and they all but said the AK is a better weapon due to the ease of manufacturing, the ease of cleaning and the prolific number of the weapon and its dirivitives out there. Major General Kalishnikov complaigned that the only reason the USSR changed to the ak74 is because they (Govt) thought that because the US forces changed to the M16 they didnt want to be "left behind". Kalishnikov stated the 7.62 round is better.
 

Michigander

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Aug 24, 2007
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Mulligan's Valley
The original AR model was designed to be nearly maintenance free also, but once it went into mass production they cheapend it up. That is when its reputation took a dump. Vietnam soldirs reported mass problems, gummed up this, jammed up that. Then the military figured out that because they cheapend it up they will need to clean it. Cleaning kits were sent to the troops and then the reports of failures dwindled. All this was taken from a show on the military channel.

I don't think it's a matter of cheapness, I think it's a matter of design changes. The original Stoner platform was a pistol driven .308. The military told them to change it to .223, and to get rid of the piston, which they did. They told the military that it wouldn't work well with ball powder, and they used it anyway. Many soldiers were told that the rifles were self cleaning, and received no cleaning kits, which caused a whole hell of a lot of problems, and cost lives, when the improper powder began jamming the mechanism. This necessitated re designing the bolt. This I got from a magazine article written by Gene Stoners former partner from Armalite.
 

Michigander

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Marines and SF operatives were being investigated for too many purported "headshots" after operations in Fallujah. As it turns out, randomly spraying walls with a firearm as floppy and overgassed as the AK, isn't the best way to wage urban warfare. During standoffs of 100m-300m, the AR showed itself infinitely more capable than an AK could ever hope or pray to be, as Marines (yes multiple) would often hit the same unlucky target in the head as it presented itself over/through a wall, or window.

That is efficient warfare.

Yes, you have smoother reloads, yes, you have better accuracy, yes, you have lower recoil.

But to put that another way, the AK platform with good ammo can do head shots at 200 yards and center of mass shots to 300 yards all day long if the user is capable, the trigger is good. Or, even further if the shooter is good with wind and elevation. Marines and SF folks are serious riflemen. I would say it's a safe assumption that Marines and SF folks with AK's would defeat rebels with M16's for a number of reasons, particularly if they were well practiced with them and made sure they had good ones with good ammo.

Anyone who takes an objective look at the AK platform will admit that the problems often lie in crappy commie quality control, and crappy commie ammo. When you take high quality ammo, and a reliable AK with a good barrel and a good trigger, it ends up being a very capable system.
 

slowfiveoh

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Yes, you have smoother reloads, yes, you have better accuracy, yes, you have lower recoil.

But to put that another way, the AK platform with good ammo can do head shots at 200 yards and center of mass shots to 300 yards all day long if the user is capable, the trigger is good. Or, even further if the shooter is good with wind and elevation. Marines and SF folks are serious riflemen. I would say it's a safe assumption that Marines and SF folks with AK's would defeat rebels with M16's for a number of reasons, particularly if they were well practiced with them and made sure they had good ones with good ammo.

Anyone who takes an objective look at the AK platform will admit that the problems often lie in crappy commie quality control, and crappy commie ammo. When you take high quality ammo, and a reliable AK with a good barrel and a good trigger, it ends up being a very capable system.

Agree with #1 paragraph.

Disagree with #2. While the generalization is correct that SF and Marines are indeed very serious riflemen, the ballistics of the 7.62x39 at range are vastly inferior to the ballistics of the 5.56 @ 200m+. Furthermore, I hear a lot of crap all the time about how AK's are "reasonably accurate" to 200m, and can repeatedly headshot from said range, then every individual I have gone to the range with to see said demonstration drastically fails, popping maybe 1 out of 4-5 rounds intentionally aimed @ 200m onto target.

Then I can pull out my AR and with irons go 5 for 5 on the same target.

1 round on target is far superior to 15 sprayed rounds to land 1-2.

Modern combat scenarios, ESPECIALLY urban warfare, preclude the spray and pray methodology. The commonality of the AK in conflicts does not speak towards any sorts of superiority in the firearm, merely that it was mass produced.

While I believe that it is the better weapon within 50-100m (the AK), beyond that, it's offset bolt, enormous round with poor coefficient, and much larger recoil play their hand.

If SHTF, I would highly prefer a rifle I could put on point every time, all the time, from any engagement angle or distance. If said hypothetical fantasy shtf scenario evolved, I could take solace in knowing that I could hunt light game with the AR too, and actually have a chance of hitting it, instead of spooking it.


As to the effectiveness of the M16 in role reversal, I have to vehemently disagree there as well. Part of the problem with the Fedayeen, Republican Guard, and the Taliban, is their lack of proficient rifleman skills or combat drill. Pair this with an already inaccurate firearm that you intend to use from ambush sites after launching a mortar attack or IED from distances of 100+ meters, and you have a recipe for failure.

If you handed same group an AR platform weapon, they would drastically increase their ability to hit their targets, even if they did not practice properly/religously to do so. "Inshalla" would have a higher success rate than it does at the moment.

I disagree with #3 as well, in that while it is a reliable system, it is its sheer production numbers that play a dominant role in it's success. Not it's ability as a platform.

If the M16 was mass produced and handed out to rebel countries, we would all be sitting here talking about how "capable a platform it is and how battle proven it is" in the same vein that we discuss the AK.

All because rebels dump thirty rounds of 7.62 at each other, scoring maybe 5 hits.
 

fully_armed_biker

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Aug 27, 2009
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463
Location
Portsmouth, Virginia, USA
As has been pointed out before...you have Ford guys, and you have Chevy guys...or my favorite comparison, Chicago pizza vs. New York pizza...you'll never convince me that New York pizza is better, I don't care how many surveys or results from taste tests you show me...I'll always be a Chicago pizza guy...obviously its a personal preference.

I have an AK and have shot both AK's and AR's...I like both and hope to add an AR to my arsenal soon...but, plain and simple...in a SHTF scenario, ANY rifle is better than none!
 
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