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Ayoob on what to say to police AFTER a SD shooting

Red Dawg

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Dec 29, 2010
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Eastern VA, with too many people
Sorry about Necroing this

BUT, not everyone has an attorney on speed dial. Not everyone can afford "good" councel. Sos, if someone invokes their right to councel before questioning, how long can they be just held waiting for a lawyer to show up? Say the pub defender....They won't just jump out of bed at o'dark thirty to help someone. Are you required to sit in an interogation room for 10-20 hours, or whatever until an attorney shows up? At this point you haven't been charged, so is it true they have to cut you loose after 24 hours? I think you see where I'm going. Even if you've done nothing wrong, if you can't afford USER, or another good lawyer, what are you to do right then? Trust me, no matter what, the **** rule is ingrained.

S
 

RetiredOC

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Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
are public defenders that bad?

Is there anything wrong with using a public defender in a case that you feel you'll easily win as the victim? I don't have a lot of money and I'm not really sure how much you'd pay a lawyer.
 

skidmark

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Valhalla
are public defenders that bad?

Is there anything wrong with using a public defender in a case that you feel you'll easily win as the victim? I don't have a lot of money and I'm not really sure how much you'd pay a lawyer.

For most folks who OC the odds of being represented by a public defender are quite low. In most cases they are the attorneys you get when you meet the court's definition of indigent which pretty much requires you to sell off non-essential assets in the attempt to fund your own representation. Even if you qualify for Food Stamps (or whatever they are called these days) you are going to have to declare assets and the value of your handgun will probably disqualify you. (Sucks, doesn't it?)

The answer to how long you can be held before a charge is officially made is to be found in your locality's case law - it does differ from one state to another. Then there is the case law that governs how long you can be held before being brought before a Magistrate for determination of bail if you are not brought immediately in front of a court. This is really the heart of the matter - getting to being under custodial arrest as opposed to being in some nebulous state in which the cops are not required to inform you of your Miranda/Edwards rights. If they are not required to advise you of those rights they are not obliged to stop asking questions even if you tell them you will not talk to them until after you consult with an attorney. It's one of the reasons for finding out if you are free to go - if you are then my personal advice is to get up and go.

To repeat what seems to be the consensus regarding what the best thing to do might be: Go consult with a criminal defense attorney beforehand to find out what their advice is considering the local cops and the local courts and how those groups deal with your "what-if" scenario. If you can't find an attorney who will set a reasonable fee for about 30 minutes worth of time, check your state's lar association lawyer referral service. They generally run $25 for either 15 or 30 minutes.

stay safe.
 

Jack House

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Jun 12, 2010
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2,611
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I80, USA
are public defenders that bad?

Is there anything wrong with using a public defender in a case that you feel you'll easily win as the victim? I don't have a lot of money and I'm not really sure how much you'd pay a lawyer.
They are complete crap, even when the case should easily be won. My mother had a public defender, he didn't **** to help her. Just more our pleads forced get into a plea deal.


Posted using my HTC Evo
 

Red Dawg

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Dec 29, 2010
Messages
399
Location
Eastern VA, with too many people
Well, I guess it makes sense, you are buying your continued freedom. What is it worth to you? I will have a lawyer on semi speed dial. I reckon I'll figure out how to pay for it after it's over...
 

user

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Feb 12, 2009
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Northern Piedmont
1) Lawyers, generally, are like people in all occupations: some of them are really good, some of them are really bad, and most of them are average. I've known folks doing court appointed work, and folks in the office of the public defender, who were excellent attorneys, diligent, and conscientious. I've known a couple who didn't mind telling anyone who'd listen that they hated their clients, that everyone the cops brought in was guilty as far as they were concerned, and that they would never prepare for or go to trial for a "scumbag" defendant. They stood up and gave the court the decorum of due process, while actually denying due process. But those were only two out of the hundreds I've known. Point is, it's kind of a crap shoot, because you get the lawyer the court gives you. And many are inexperienced or unable or unwilling to get clients by actually working hard; it doesn't pay worth spit, so the people who do it tend to be those who don't have financial options. But like I say, there are some really good ones who are putting in their labor for the good of society and the cause of justice, who don't need the money, and will show up at the jail at two a.m. to be present at the interrogation.

2) As to plea bargains: the way that usually works is that the prosecutor will tell the defense lawyer what the deal is, the defense lawyer tells the client, somehow a decision is reached, and defense counsel relays the result to the prosecutor. Plea bargains are, in my estimation, a form of damage control. If I have a client whom I know is guilty and I think the prosecutor is very likely to put on sufficient evidence to convict without making any bone-headed mistakes, then I think plea negotiations are in order. It's a way of limiting the exposure to a severe sentence or multiple convictions, or convictions that interfere with future ability to live normally (e.g., loss of driving privileges, loss of CHP for three years, having to register as a sex offender, etc.).

Bob Horan, formerly the Commonwealth's Attorney in Fairfax County (and a great trial lawyer) told me once, about twenty years ago, that he didn't believe in plea bargains. He said that if it was truly a bargain, there was absolutely no reason for the Commonwealth to go along with it - he'd rather go to trial. That office had a fairly strict policy about the criteria they used for making decisions, and the junior assistant deputy prosecutors would get into trouble if they deviated from the rules. I think that was an extreme point of view.

Here's the other extreme: what I call "plea bargain factories". There are also "personal injury factories", and "slash-and-burn divorce factories", and they all have something in common: they operate to make as much money as quickly as possible and they do it by ripping off their clients. A law firm that demands a lot of money up front before they'll even talk to the prospective client, sends emails or text messages gratuitiously to the client just to fill up the quota of billable hours, and bills for lots and lots of time spent "in conference" or reviewing files but actually does no significant work is ripping off the client. A plea-bargain factory charges full price for legal services, as though they were going to prepare for and go to trial. They don't prepare, and they generally have several cases stacked up on any particular morning, often in more than one jurisdiction, and all they do is relay whatever the Commonwealth wants to do over to the client, and then beat up on the client to make them accept the deal.


Here's how the process is supposed to work: Either the prosecutor or defense counsel will suggest to the other the advisability of a deal. The prosecutor's interest is in processing as many cases as expeditiously as possible and saving the county some money (including the costs of incarceration) while at the same time making sure that the badguys who need to be "got" get what they deserve. So the two discuss the evidence, the likely outcome of the trial, and what kinds of terms both sides are likely to be able to accept. Defense counsel will then go to the client and explain (a) the range of possible solutions to the problem - there are usually three: take what the prosecutor is offering, plead guilty and argue sentencing before the judge, or go to trial; (b) the risks and benefits of each - usually it boils down to a reasonably certain outcome as opposed to the possibility of no outcome (or at least a good basis for appeal) with maximum risk; (c) a recommended solution, if there is one; and (d) the basis for the recommendation. At that point, it's the client's decision what he wants to happen in his life, and defense counsel's job to support that decision.

This is the point at which the client generally asks, "What should I do?". My response is uniform: I don't know what you should do - I know what I would do, but I'm not you, and it won't be me leaving the courtroom in handcuffs out the side door. I'm not terribly risk-averse, and I don't mind uncertainty, so I always lean toward going to trial; you can always appeal. But that's extra expense that doesn't necessarily reduce the ultimate risk. If you want to be pretty sure about what the sentence will be (the judge doesn't have to rubber stamp the prosecutor's offer, though they almost always do), then go with the deal. Sometimes, I've told clients that I thought a particular judge would do better on sentencing than the prosecutor's offer, and recommended pleading "straight up" and arguing sentencing before the judge. Sometimes, the deal is so bogus that I thought a "slow plea" would be preferable - plead not guilty, go to trial, make the Commonwealth prove its case, don't put on any evidence, and then argue sentencing if necessary. (The latter is an especially good approach if there's a possibility of a horrible civil suit afterwards - if you plead "not guilty", then they can't use your plea against you, which they can with a "nolo contendere".)

But ultimately, it has to be the client's decision whether or not to accept the plea. An an attorney who insists that you take the plea without running you through all that procedure first is simply trying to get out of the courtroom quickly and doesn't care what happens to you. Remember that you always have the right to tell the judge what's going on, what's happening to you, and to state an objection. You can tell the judge that your lawyer is trying to railroad you and that you want another opportunity to get a decent lawyer; you have a Constitutional right to effective representation of counsel, and if your lawyer is drunk, lazy, careless, or just stupid, you can tell the judge that and demand your right to a fair trial. There is magic language that you have to use: "May I please address the Court?" - you have to ask permission to talk - and you do this before anything else happens - when things go too fast, and they will if you let them, stop the process, do a time-out, and ask to speak to the judge yourself. Be persistent, because your only chance to get a fair trial is before sentence is pronounced. After that, well, make sure you leave your wallet and keys with someone you trust.
 

user

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Well, I guess it makes sense, you are buying your continued freedom. What is it worth to you? I will have a lawyer on semi speed dial. I reckon I'll figure out how to pay for it after it's over...

I generally tell people, even those who subscribe to the United States Concealed Carry Association or the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, that they need a war chest if they're going to carry a gun. (You don't need to defend yourself in court if you don't carry a gun and badguy kills you.) I tell people that, at present rates, they should have a minimum of six thousand dollars in liquid assets for "just in case". That's true generally, of course, one could have a medical emergency, a catastrophic vehicular failure, or a sudden need to travel to California on an emergency basis. Bad idea to put disaster payments on a credit card. Start saving your pennies. The worst that could happen is that you'll have saved all that money and have nothing to do but spend a couple of weeks in Barbados.
 

wrightme

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Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,574
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Fallon, Nevada, USA
user,

That has got to be one of THE BEST dissertations on the legal process that I have read so far. THANK YOU.

That is getting copied and saved for my reference pile.
 

Yard Sale

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Feb 13, 2010
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Northern Nevada, ,
I was appointed counsel by the court as an indigent defendant. I have no assets besides a truck and motorcycles, and all my income goes to pay my monthly expenses. The city that is prosecuting me does not have public defenders like the county and hired an independent attorney. I get the impression that they aren't paying him squat.

Public defenders have a success rate about equal that of private attorneys. Many years ago I served on a jury and saw an assistant public defender give a tremendous defense to the accused. He was so inspiring we thanked him after the trial.

As to not speaking to the cops before or after arrest, I wasn't arrested for homicide but I still exercised my right to remain silent. It made them violently angry. They reported my silence as being uncooperative.
 

Trent91

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Messages
100
Location
Muskogee, Oklahoma, United States
Sorry to take the discussion back a little, but what was the final conclusion about whether or not to try to take photos of the scene? Also, if your camera has the capability, what about taking a quick video? No commentary, just a quick sweep of the scene. It would be quicker and more efficient.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
That Nevada will appoint a public defender before making the defendant sell off all but "essential" assets (as defined by statute) is commendable. However, that is not what appears to be the general trend.

I know from personal experience how expensive it is to defend yourself against BS charges, and how absolutely fortunate I was/am to have a case that touched a nerve with so many people who got upset about what was going on. Many other folks may not be so fortunate.

stay safe.
 

MKEgal

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Jan 8, 2010
Messages
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in front of my computer, WI
Yard Sale said:
As to not speaking to the cops before or after arrest, I wasn't arrested for homicide but I still exercised my right to remain silent. It made them violently angry. They reported my silence as being uncooperative.
There are LEO of whatever flavor who don't take seriously their oath to uphold the laws, including the Constitution. Those are the ones who get mad when a citizen exercises her/his rights, of whatever sort. See various videos of police assaulting OCers (or in the case of Canton, OH, someone ccing).

One of the long-time high-post-count members here advises something to the effect of:
"Officer, I'm a patriotic citizen & will be happy to cooperate with you to the full extent required by law."
Then KYBMS. (Assuming that you have previously unequivocally requested a lawyer. If not, do that first.)
 

okboomer

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Oct 18, 2009
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Oklahoma, USA
I was appointed counsel by the court as an indigent defendant. I have no assets besides a truck and motorcycles, and all my income goes to pay my monthly expenses. The city that is prosecuting me does not have public defenders like the county and hired an independent attorney. I get the impression that they aren't paying him squat.

Public defenders have a success rate about equal that of private attorneys. Many years ago I served on a jury and saw an assistant public defender give a tremendous defense to the accused. He was so inspiring we thanked him after the trial.

As to not speaking to the cops before or after arrest, I wasn't arrested for homicide but I still exercised my right to remain silent. It made them violently angry. They reported my silence as being uncooperative.

Despite the fact that you have a 5th Amendment Right to Remain Silent and not give Statements or Testimony which may Incriminate You?

You rabble rouser, you! Next thing you know, folks will begin objecting when their rights are trampled by the police.
 

since9

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Jan 14, 2010
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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
"Officer, I will cooperate fully with the investigation but I will not answer any questions or make a statement until my lawyer is present."

That's best worked out with one's attorney beforehand, particularly the part about how many hours of sleep you might need, as well as how many hours they'll need to prep for the initial contact.

Could be days...
 

Yard Sale

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Oh, BTW, if at trial the prosecutor mentions the defendant's silence as being uncooperative, suspicious, or indicative of guilt, it's prosecutorial misconduct. At least in this state.
 

Brass Magnet

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Apr 23, 2009
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Right Behind You!, Wisconsin, USA
"Officer, I will cooperate fully with the investigation but I will not answer any questions or make a statement until my lawyer is present."

That's best worked out with one's attorney beforehand, particularly the part about how many hours of sleep you might need, as well as how many hours they'll need to prep for the initial contact.

Could be days...

Just because you use that phrase doesn't mean you can't continue to shut up until everything is worked out with your attorney. I mean, you aren't magically compelled to spill the beans just because your lawyer shows up. My point, and the key, IMHO, is to calm the cops and ease their suspicions of "obstruction":rolleyes: while at the same time exercising your right to remain silent until such a time as you are comfortable waiving that right with your attorney present. It's a stalling tactic, if you will.
 
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BuddhaKat

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Oct 30, 2011
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Reno, NV
My last CCW instructor, who is an active duty Reno PD officer, said that the best thing to do is cooperate fully with any instructions given to you on the scene, (get on the ground, up against the wall, etc), then briefly explain the basics, you were in fear for your life/great bodily harm, etc. then tell them you want to speak with an attorney before any questioning. Basically, tell them it was a self defense shoot and due to the extreme seriousness of the situation, you want to speak to an attorney in order to make sure your rights are protected.

The fact is, even if you shot that guy that shot up the IHOP in Carson City the other day, the cops will likely treat you as a hero, but if you say something stupid, they'll note it at minimum or take you in for questioning and charge you with something. Any time a bad guy gets shot by their intended victim, there's a lot of people that are going to be looking at every scrap of information recorded on the scene and a lot of those people have the authority to charge you.

The instructor was adamant, just give the absolute basics and then KYBMS!
 

Yard Sale

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My CCW renewal instructor was a Washoe sheriff detective and I've known him for ~10 years. He said to just spill the beans and start talking. Neither the fact he's a detective nor the fact I've known him personally for a long time change the fact that I'll disregard his advice if ever in that situation.
 
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